OldOne's 2nd cab run - PLL / PPK / Arjan's Haze 3

[oldone]

Hi Colorado, welcome aboard! Do your sockets happen to be 2g11 for PLLs?

Hey IF,

Thanks for the Ph hydro vs soil explanation. It makes my fragmented reading on the subject come into focus.

A wise man recognizes good advice when he sees it. Since I fake the wisdom bit rather well I will follow your advice. A few questions inevitably though...

The bleach wash you talk about; Can I use it in my PPK rez? I was more concerned with the bugs hopping a ride on the outside of the hose. I like the idea of them getting chewed up in the pump.

I thought that fixing the Ph of RO water alone was kind of useless because theoretically there are no buffering elements. My RO wont register on the BlueLab Truncheon which means its < .1 EC or < 50 ppm @ .5. My well water tests between .6 and .8 depending on the season.

Thanks for helping me out, I wish I could return the favor...
OO

 

[oldone]

How low key was the packaging from jrpeters? Front step low key, or stay home from work that day low key...?

Sorry IF I missed this,
It was front step low key(no signature required) and I'm very satisfied. I'm not sure where you post from but in Canada(not prying) JRPeters passes the paranoid test. No mention of "hydropnics" on the outside labels, only on the undisturbed attached invoice. FYI I paid through Paypal.

They ship UPS standard and I have a UPS account so maybe this makes a difference(?).

Do it, you know you want to...
OO

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

OO,

I'm gonna tell a long story that is only vaguely on subject before giving you a short opinion...

My first encounter with bleach in a reservoir followed research after my first complete failure ever. I was in a new location, with all that entails. I built a new room with a low volume rDWC... it was an indirect drip system (i.e. the drip went directly into the reservoir rather than the plant's root zone) with the drain halfway up the bucket to maintain root zone reservoir level.

While I was setting up, I had the girls stored in individual DWC buckets. They were fine.

In the rDWC set up, I plumbed all the returns with the toxic pipe that I keep referring to. And that's when shit went to hell.

First it looked like a slight N deficiency, then a mag deficiency, then a lockout problem, then a temp problem, then root rot.

So I started researching root rot, followed Krunch's comments through Carls posts to find Fatman7574... who, if you have the time bordom, is worth chasing around the forums... Super informative and super funny. I think he might have asperger's syndrome. Anyway, he had a recipe for running bleach in rDWC to keep your res dead and keep the nasties at bay. I learned a lot from him.

(Fatman's Clorox Recipe FOR Recirculating Reservoirs: O.5mL/gal if you have a problem, then addback 0.1mL/gallon every day. If you are starting with a healthy grow, just add 0.1mL/gal/day)...

It is apparently common practice in industrial growing. And successful. And cheap.

It does not, however, address an off-gassing issue.

So you can run bleach in your reservoir at low concentrations,

but I wouldn't do it if I was in your place.

----
D9 says the beasties are largely harmless. Pump the res. Grind 'em up, wipe off the edge of the hose and get rid of the paper towel. Run a bleach solution through it to sterilize the pump system. And then clean out your reservoir between grows.

I would flush and transition to Jack's in this grow, but not do anything drastic to clean up the spring tails right now. Between grows, you can rig up a lid for your root supply reservoir (didn't D9 say that should fix the problem?), and go through whatever cleaning/sterilizing protocol you like for the cab.

 

[oldone]

complacency will kill you

complacency will kill you

I got a nasty shock this morning as I went to implement the changeover to Jacks.

I have not tested the rez in weeks and have discovered;
EC Ph
1.2 5.4 -bulk rez as is
2.6 6.5 -PPK rez as is
3.6 --- -first wash with 4 liters of straight RO
1.9 --- -2nd wash with 4 liters of straight RO
0.5 6.8 -3rd wash with 4 liters of straight RO
I didnt want to go lower so I stopped washing here.

No wonder she's getting worse I feel so fucking stupid.

On the bright side, Jack's does mix instantly and was easy to dial in at .7 EC Jacks and .5 calcnit. Ph was dead on at 5.5, no adjustments necessary.

We'll see how she does...cant get any worse.
OO

 

[oldone]

D9 says the beasties are largely harmless. Pump the res. Grind 'em up, wipe off the edge of the hose and get rid of the paper towel. Run a bleach solution through it to sterilize the pump system. And then clean out your reservoir between grows.

I would flush and transition to Jack's in this grow, but not do anything drastic to clean up the spring tails right now. Between grows, you can rig up a lid for your root supply reservoir (didn't D9 say that should fix the problem?), and go through whatever cleaning/sterilizing protocol you like for the cab.

Yeah I just said to hell with it and got on with the job. The pump worked brilliantly and made the job relatively easy. It was powerful enough that I could suck up large quantities of them off the surface and then observe no movement. I guess they dont like pumps...too bad.

Thanks for the story, I decided not to bleach it until the chop.
OO

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Nice OO,

Glad you took the time to do the flush and switch over. Take lots of pictures for us over the next few days... Can you rig up some way to shoot pics from a fixed position so we can see some true side-by-sides? I don't think she was in bad shape to begin with, but things might get even better now.

Post flush, I would expect to see your solution uptake increase, meaning you might have to top off your bulk reservoir with more regularity.

How dry is the top of your coco generally?

Does it meet the "When I squeeze it, moisture peeks out between my fingers" test?

D9's theory on reduced salt build up within the PPK is that the pulse feeds keep the moisture content throughout the system more uniform, and as a consequences, salts always stay in solution, and never dry out to concentrate. Occasional hand fed top watering might be an easy substitute to a pulse system.

Before you reported your EC results from flush, I was wondering if a shallow enough system might keep moisture content uniform throughout the media (i.e. no evaporative concentration) simply based on capillary forces.

How deep is your coco, and how big is your air gap, and how far does your wick passively draw (did you say 7-8" at one point?)?

Maybe I'll get a better understanding of the bottom feed only dynamic you finish up your grow.

Thanks for the update. Very interested to see if there are any noticeable changes over the next few days.

 

[oldone]

Hi IF, I mixed up your post a bit but,

How dry is the top of your coco generally? Does it meet the "When I squeeze it, moisture peeks out between my fingers" test?

How deep is your coco, and how big is your air gap, and how far does your wick passively draw (did you say 7-8" at one point?)?

It never drys out. I cant get enough coco off the top now for the squeeze test but I know it did. I'm using 6" std plastic pots 6.75" dia x 7" deep. Gap is 3" with about 2" ppk depth. D9's depth IIRC is 10" and his surface will dry out. I think thats why he started top watering in the first place.

Before you reported your EC results from flush, I was wondering if a shallow enough system might keep moisture content uniform throughout the media (i.e. no evaporative concentration) simply based on capillary forces.

D9's theory on reduced salt build up within the PPK is that the pulse feeds keep the moisture content throughout the system more uniform, and as a consequences, salts always stay in solution, and never dry out to concentrate. Occasional hand fed top watering might be an easy substitute to a pulse system.

Before I committed to my design I tested various wicks, gaps and coco depth. I found that with the sizes noted above it kept the coco uniformly wet with no PWT. I was hoping I achieved a balanced system that did not require systematic top watering but my recent adventures have shot that one down.

Thinking about it, how could I have had such a high Ph and TDS at the same time?

Maybe I'll get a better understanding of the bottom feed only dynamic you finish up your grow.

Thanks for the update. Very interested to see if there are any noticeable changes over the next few days.

I'll try and focus the webcam and get some pics. I'm just as excited to tear the root ball apart as I am with the meds. Go figure,

Later,
OO

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

OO--

I've got to be somewhere five minutes ago... I'll try and really look at you're last set of questions and comments more clearly when I can.

I haven't gotten my brain around where the salts are coming from if you aren't going through a drying cycle, but I'd like to take some time and think about the mechanics and what other causes than evap. might be playing a roll.

Quickly on the pH... it suggests that whatever nute/chemical being left behind is one that doesn't systematically lower pH, or it's reverse: whatever is in the food that drops the pH was being consumed at a higher rate than whatever caused your EC to be higher.

It's not uncommonly high, and may people feed at that level, but it may account for the tip burn from the perspective of osmotic ballance. What are your ambient temp and RH in the cab (lights-on)?

Hey, I got an idea. We should as Delta9nxs what's going on here...

 

[oldone]

Hey, I got an idea. We should as Delta9nxs what's going on here...

PM'd him...

 

[oldone]

So she's at least still alive. My 12 hour cycle is 3am to 3pm.

My final step yesterday was to fill the ppk rez by flushing through the coco with 1.2/5.5 (EC/PH) and adding a few liters to the rinsed bulk rez. So this morning I got;

Bulk 1.0/6.4
ppk 1.0/5.5

I attribute the drop in ec to rinse water left in the system. It looks like the ppk ph is right back where it was 4 weeks ago when all was well. I'm pondering what strength to mix the next batch at which has to be soon. Greenhouse recommends ec 1.7 and 5.9 Ph.

The webcam is now active but image quality is poor. I've had to fix 2 "blue blocker" sunglass lenses in front of the lense. Left unfiltered the image is totally washed out.

They do make good movies though...

OO

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Your recent observations have brought up some glaring holes in my understanding of capillary forces, moisture distribution and how that relates to solution equilibrium.

Thanks for that.

I'll edit this post in another few minutes as my confusion changes direction.

---
FIRST EDIT:

I still think she's beautiful. So she's got a few burnt tips... Cindy Crawford has a mole...

---
SECOND EDIT: (this one addresses some of the questions you've raised)


Solutions naturally seek equilibrium. Equilibrium is not instantaneous. There are many mechanical/electro-chemical factors involved.

I don't know if electro-chemical is even a real/meaningful phrase, but it seems like a good descriptor for whats in my head right now.

What I'm saying is: Various solutions under various conditions take various amount of time to find equilibrium.

With a solid wall pot, all your direct-to-atmosphere-evaporation is going to be off the top.

This will generate a hydraulic force drawing your nutes upward.

If this evaporative draw (another new phrase with a new word in it) is happening faster than the solution can reestablish equilibrium, the result will be a varied nutrient concentration, with the heaviest concentration at the top.

Somewhere in D9's thread, he noted this same characteristic: Namely, bottom fed systems tend to accumulated salts at the top, while top fed systems tend to accumulate salts at the bottom. (Maybe for different reasons--evaporation through the top, PWT drying out in a top fed system?)

A pulse fed PPK feeds from the bottom, but regularly moves the concentrated solution back into the media, mechanically 'mixing' the solution back together, contributing to solution equilibrium.

---
THIRD EDIT

An implied (partial) solution to this is to cap the top of your pot to minimize atmospheric evaporation.

An implied consequence of reducing atmospheric contact to the media is a reduction of 02 in the root zone. Any mechanical supplementation (i.e. air pumping into the media, etc) will generate a positive pressure and will probably counteract the addition of the cap.

---
FOURTH EDIT:

I feel okay about my understanding now. I don't have to think about it any more. I should go update my post on the Pulse feed now.

Okay, maybe later.

 

[oldone]

Some other factors(?).

There was/is some brown sediment in the bulk rez. I know I didnt get rid of it all.

There is a surprising amount of coco in the ppk rez. And roots. And the corpses of 100's of bugs. Got a few live ones left left too. I cant remove the rez and cant see into it very well.

Edit:Lots of her leaves are showing those spots posted earlier, but the distribution is not even. It will no doubt be plant height related but I wont be able to tell until the chop. Shes so bent and twisted I cant tell where the top of the plant is anyway


Food for thought
OO

 

[delta9nxs]

in the ppk thread i mentioned how salts accumulate in the bottom of a purely top watered container and the top of a purely bottom watered container.

i think i mentioned that you should top water a purely sub-irrigated medium once in a while. i think i suggested plain ro water for this. plain ro water will carry more salt. ro water is highly susceptible to ph change from the existing salts in your medium so you really don't have to be concerned with ph doing this.

in your situation you have been feeding ec 1.8 and not top watering much, if at all.

this also has to do with light strength. with powerful hid lighting you can feed a stronger solution than low power lighting as the plant takes up nutrients faster.

and you may just have a sensitive plant.

with your lights i would think ec 1.2-1.5 should work fine with a weekly ro water back flush to force salts back down.

with a pulse system in place this is not an issue.

as the plant is budding up nicely i don't think you have a real problem here. you have changed to jack's at 1.2 in the bulk tank, right?

just leave it alone now except for adding new solution and an occasional load of un-ph'ed ro water on top.

do not adjust ph!

here is a nice little article on those fucking springtails.

http://lancaster.unl.edu/enviro/pest/Nebline/Springtails.htm

i spent all day monday, and i mean all day, at the hospital having a liver biopsy done. because of my low platelet count they can't go in through the rib cage, as is normal procedure.

they had to go in through the jugular in my neck, through the heart and then into the liver to get a sample.

spent all day yesterday just vegging.

OO, relax man, you've just got a few weeks to go.

later on, d9

 

[delta9nxs]

i can see we cross posted a little bit.

the brown stuff in your res is from the fnb. don't worry about it now. you can clean everything between grows.

do you have a close up of the spots?

are you picking bad leaves?

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, OO, i just noticed your bulk res is 6.4 ph. how did that happen?

using jack's and ro it should be in the mid 5's.

your bulk res is isolated from your plant res, correct? feed only, no return.

 

[oldone]

Edit: Duh...todays reading should have been:
Bulk 1.0/5.5
ppk 1.0/6.4
Not
Bulk 1.0/6.4
ppk 1.0/5.5

Sorry for the confusion. Is 6.4 high for the ppk rez?

do you have a close up of the spots?
are you picking bad leaves?

See that spotty yellowing leaf in the middle? That was 3 weeks ago and now is much more widespread. I pick only the leaves I can reach

hey, OO, i just noticed your bulk res is 6.4 ph. how did that happen?

using jack's and ro it should be in the mid 5's.

your bulk res is isolated from your plant res, correct? feed only, no return.

It is something both our ImaginaryFriend and I have found. We both found 4.5 bulk and 6.2 to 6.4 ppk consistently. I observed that you had stated somewhere in your thread that the natural ph of coco was 6.2 so I wasn't worried.

I just occurred to me that your trees must use a hell of a lot more fluid than my shrub. Maybe physically moving that much more fluid through the coco has unforeseen effects. Also the plant vs rootzone size ratio might play a part.

My ppk has the float and bulk rez is just plugged into it.

Interesting puzzle, eh?
OO

BTW, Earlier you told me to calm down and while always good advice, I dont really feel alarmed here. A strange tranquil feeling pervades. I call it the "PPK effect" a previously unrecorded phenomena. I know I'm going to get some good smoke. Anyway when IF and I were bitching about being bored, I wasn't kidding. Well I'm not bored now.

 

[delta9nxs]

now it sounds right!

6.4 is ok for now. just keep feeding ec 1.2 and backwash it once in a while with straight ro.

you are probably seeing a residual effect left over from the fnb, which runs a higher ph than jack's.

even though coco has an intrinsic ph of around 6.2 it does not have much bearing on solution ph.

i don't know if i mentioned it but you do not need to add any cal-mag products now.

the leaf spotting looks like a slight ph problem from before but should not be a problem now that you have switched to jack's.

keep us posted, with pics if possible, you are very close. how many days left?

 

[oldone]

i don't know if i mentioned it but you do not need to add any cal-mag products now.

keep us posted, with pics if possible, you are very close. how many days left?

Yeah I just boxed up about $200 of barely used chemicals, all replaced by Jack's. It'll join my now useless equipment gathering dust. I wonder if tomatoes like FNB?

Today is day 60 with 10 to 17 left.

While I've got you D9 how should I pre-treat my Canna coco with Jack's?

Thanks,
OO

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, i still clone in fnb and turface. i use 2 ml a week. so if you've got a gal it should last about 10 years.

tomatoes love it. i've been feeding maxibloom and flora series to mine.

i don't have a lot of sativa experience but i don't see how those buds are going to be ready in 10 days and to me 17 looks doubtful.

my philosophy with coco is that i don't really know what's been done to it before i get it. so i rinse it really well, let it drain thoroughly, then slowly pour a working strength nute solution through it as a pretreatment.

i then take the container and put it in place in the system for a day with no plant in it to let everything come to balance. the pulse system is hooked up and running during this time and the res is full of solution.

my transplants show absolutely no sign of the potassium/magnesium/calcium display most report in coco.

 

[oldone]

i don't have a lot of sativa experience but i don't see how those buds are going to be ready in 10 days and to me 17 looks doubtful.

Me neither. Do you think its genetic or my fumbling misdeeds? I can afford to let her go as long as it takes. I must say the pistols are starting to brown up.

my philosophy with coco is that i don't really know what's been done to it before i get it. so i rinse it really well, let it drain thoroughly, then slowly pour a working strength nute solution through it as a pretreatment.

Canna makes a big deal over how clean their coco is and my testing confirms it. Anyway so I'll just soak it in 1.8/5.5 solution, drain and let it set a while. Seems simple enough.

I'm definitely adding some kind of manual top watering rig for run 3. Something I can connect a small bottle to and just walk away. Once a week ought to do it.

Thanks for your help,
OO