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New sub-forum suggestion...12/12 from seed

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H

Hal

12/12 From Seed: a different way to grow

This thread is devoted to an excellent method of growing our favorite plant. “12/12 From Seed” is a proven way to grow pot, and produces yields up to 1 gram of dried bud per 1 watt of electricity consumed (eg: a 400 watt HPS light is able to produce a harvest of 400 grams). It is a very good choice for growers who have a limited amount of space to set up their gardens. The cannabis grown this way is potent, sticky, and yes…stinky. The pot plant suffers no ill effects from being grown under this light regimen.

Typically, the cannabis cultivator will start their plants with a lighting regimen that provides anywhere from 18 to 24 hours of light a day, called the ‘vegetation’ phase, to make the plant grow as large as possible, increasing the amount of ‘budding sites’ on the plant. Once the plant has grown large, it is forced into flowering by switching the lighting regimen to 12 hours on/12 hours off. This results in plants that produce copious yields, but take up considerable space.

“12/12 From Seed,” eliminates the vegetation phase. As soon as the seed pops through the soil’s surface it is given a light regimen of 12 hours on/12 hours off. Plants grown this way do not grow as big as they would if given a vegetation phase. The shape of the plants is also different, losing much of their natural ‘bush’ quality. Our plants tend to be shaped like a “pole,” with the main bud formation happening along the main stem of the plant. This allows the grower to fit more plants per square foot/meter. It also makes possible gardens in spaces that growing larger, bush-like plants would be impossible. The shorter height of these plants also works in concert with the limited penetration distance that exists with any/all forms of indoor lighting.

Other than the difference in the lighting regimen, growing cannabis using this method is the same as the more traditional way. You still need to learn about the other important factors in growing a healthy garden, such as; proper nutrient levels; maintaining the correct PH level; controlling temperature, humidity, and odor; and providing ventilation. Because we are starting from seed, we need to use soil as our medium, but other than that requirement all other personal choices to control the environment is the same as growing any other way.

This method does have its critics. Most of these critics have never tried to grow this way, they are just passing along commonly held misinformation without having actual experience. The main criticism is that the yields gotten from this method are miniscule and not worth the time involved. We challenge that, with the experience of a grower called “Atmosphere” who gets 1 gram of dried bud for each watt of electricity used (that would be a harvest of 8 ounces from a 250 watt HPS light!). “Atmosphere” had a thread back on Overgrow, which is where many of us first encountered this method, and he is held in high regard among folks who grow this way. He visits this thread and provides solid information based on years of experience.

Some critics claim that the amount of the main cannabinoid, THC, produced by plants grown this way is less than plants that are allowed to mature with a vegetation phase. This opinion is based on a study done many years ago, well before modern gardening techniques took hold, and almost certainly did not test any plants that were grown using this lighting regimen. New tests must be done, that’s all there is to it. More importantly, the empirical experience from those who have grown this way, and the experience of their friends who have smoked these plants, is that this cannabis is just as potent as any they have ever smoked (strain variety taken into account, of course). If there is any difference in THC percentages, it is minute, and not noticeable to the cannabis consumer.

So pull up a chair, and watch what we do. Keep an open mind, and observe our results. Try growing some of your own crops with this method and then make up your mind as to whether there is some mighty fine ganja to be grown this way.
 
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Lofty

Member
sounds good to me Hal, get them all signed in to prove or disprove i say. if i make the gains on my first 12/12 grow i will b giving up growing big 1m x 1m plants and going 12/12 from seed!

Good post Hal. :wave:
 
H

Hal

Hey Lofty...

Yeah, I want personal grow diaries to be an important component of this new thread.

Regarding the nature of these grow diaries, there are 2 forms they can take. One is the more traditional, where a grower will post periodically, sometimes on a daily basis, on how the grow is progressing. This is the type you find when the grower starts their own thread devoted to that grow. The other kind is one that shows the entire grow in one posting...these are more what you would call "grow reports," it isn't quite as detailed, but still has all the information that is important.

I feel that, within this thread, the second type would be the most useful, primarily because anyone who wanted to research a grow done with a particular strain would be able to find all the information they needed in one spot. If we do our "grow diaries" in a fashion that periodically gives updates, a person trying to find info on a strain would have to go through page after page to get that info.

Doing our "12/12 from seed" strain/grow reports where all the info is contained within one post is going to be a bit more labor intensive than the other way (the grower will need to collect their notes and photographs as the grow progresses and keep it stored on their computer until harvest)...but I feel that it is time well spent in our efforts to make this method work for as many folks as possible. Until we get a devoted GROW DIARY for strains using this method, this is only way we will be able to efficiently research which strains respond most favorably to this grow method. I think that may be the most important information that we can compile for those who want to grow this way.

Whatcha all think regarding the above?
 
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Lofty

Member
Hal imo this new metod of growing is new to a lot of growers and the great thread u started is so they can c how it works and wat to do. i think at this stage first time 12/12 grows wud b better posting updates and pics on a regular basis. the reason being, u, atmosphere and any other experianced 12/12ers can c it and keep them on the rite track to the end. if grow diaries were left to the end and new12/12 grows made a balls of their grow coz of lack of experiance, all u'll get is neg feedback wen they've finished.

basically wat i'm saying is, get som growers in to it, let them post, giude them thro to a good crop and get pos feedback.

thats it i'm guna shut up now :wave:

ps just another thought, after a few grows u cud condense them in to links to reduce the post.
 
It makes sense to be able to guide people with thier 12/12 grow.


I am going to try and get some scientific research material on the potency thing to get it clear for once and for all.

Its obvious that the plants take thier time to prepare to flower ,they just always do . thats why it takes about 3 weeks from seed on 12/12 before they show sex. almost immediatly after sprouting the start maturing , this is not visible .

Growing plants over 40 inches tall is a waste of time because your lamps wont be able to effectively reach the lower parts of your plants .

The 12/12 method with seeds also produces less leaves than clones because seedlings handle light more efficient . they have a better transport system ,it didn't have to do the unnatural cloning /rooting trick.
 
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H

Hal

Hey Lofty...Hey Atmosphere...

That is a good point, I agree that it would be beneficial to new growers to have immediate feedback on their gardens progress. But I also feel that it is important that searching for grow reports within this thread would be an incredibly useful tool as well. As I think about it, it seems to me we could quite easily do both.

Let people post as they normally would, as they feel the need, whether to just update everyone else how their grow is going, or if they need to get feedback on a particular issue they have encountered.

Additionally, we could state in the introduction to this thread certain suggested protocols that will make the thread as searchable as possible. For instance, we could set aside the term "grow/smoke report/_________" to be used ONLY in the title of a post that was an all-encompassing report on a grow from beginning to end.

That might require a bit of supervision occasionally to make sure people stick to the protocol, but I think it would be worth it to be able to do effective searches in the thread.

Atmosphere...if you are able to get some scientific results regarding the potency question, that would be FANFREAKINTASTIC! Seems like it would be a major undertaking though. Good luck to you on that.

Thanks for the good thoughts SatGhost...but it won't be my thread, its gonna be OUR thread.
 
H

Hal

OK...here is the second installment of what would appear at the beginning of the new thread (in a new post):

Important note about this thread:

The “12/12 From Seed” method would be well-served by a dedicated “Grow Report/Strain Guide” section. One factor that has yet to be gauged regarding this method is how each particular strain’s genetics responds to this lighting regimen. Because this method will be of particular interest to those who have limited space to set-up their gardens, knowing how each strain behaves with this method is of the utmost importance before choosing the seeds.

For example…I am currently growing Nirvana Bubblelicious, and before that I grew Nirvana Northern Lights. The Bubblelicious is growing very differently than the Northern Lights, growing taller and branchier. Luckily, I didn’t have serious space limitations in my grow area, so I have been able to deal with this. But other growers might not be so lucky.

We strongly encourage all who are growing a crop with this method to compile notes, and photos (if possible), of the entire grow as it progresses. Once the crop has been harvested (and cured and tasted if possible..) then post a report on it. Here comes the most IMPORTANT part…we need to reserve the title given to these reports:

Strain Report: ___________

The blank being the name of the strain that has been grown (including the seedbank). If we only use those words in the post title then when we search using those words we will go straight to what we need. This will benefit everyone who grows this way, yourself included. Picking the wrong strain for your particular space requirements will end up being a major headache, and its best if we can avoid doing that.

-------

Anyone have anything they think should be added/subtracted/changed? Don't be shy!
 
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A.N.Other

Member
hey hal, as I have said before this is a very valid grow method which I have used to great effective a few times so making an useful one-stop shop thread on the method would be great!

In terms of grow reports and those kind of things I think they should remain in the grow diary section of the site and posts in this thread can link to the core thread with summarised details of the grow in the 12/12 thread. These posts in the 12/12 can either be updated as the grow continues (would be nice) or be posted at the end of the grow. This would mean this thread stays informative and of a reasonable length to stay manageable for the viewer.

If you start the thread with 10 - 15 balnk posts at the beginning you can eventually edit these 10 - 15 posts with a 12/12 grow faq of sorts using the compiled information in the thread.

:wave:
 
H

Hal

Howdy A.N. ....

I'm a bit confused about your post...you start off by saying that having a "one-stop shop" thread would be great...then you seem to argue against that very thing by saying the grow reports should not be here, but remain in the main grow report section.

What is wrong with having the 12/12 from seed grow reports right here in this thread? It would, as you say, be more convenient. Additionally, it would present folks who visit this thread because they are curious about this method with these grow reports, which if they were only in link form would not necessarily be clicked on and visited. I think the idea of posting these 12/12 grow reports in the main section as well would be good too...get this information as wide spread as possible.

Regarding all those blank posts in the beginning...I'm thinking having that many would be unnecessary, we could just have one...make it a "12/12 from seed" FAQ, and just expand it as necessary.

Thanks for taking the time to respond and get involved. Where is everyone else? We need input!
 
H

Hal

Hi piece,

Glad to see ya! Thanks for observing...knock on the door anytime!

Hal
 

A.N.Other

Member
Sorry Hal, I was supa-stoned and in a rush to get out!

Intro:

The first posts, 10 -15 may be too much but you don't want to limit yourself to a single post as VBB limits posts to 10k characters and a certain number of images. This can be quite limited when building fairly in-dept tutorial type posts. Yesterday for example I tried to put throughout flower pics of three phenotypes of a certain strain in flower pix and had to do this in three posts rather than one due to VBB error messages relating to image numbers.

I could forsee those first few posts becoming very lengthy once a few grows/results have been posted and some various techs have been discussed.

Grow Reports:

I think grow reports should be 'well kept' in order to be useable if many people are posting different grows to one thread. To go into my idea in more detail what I basically mean is this, I'll use my SQ & Satori thread as example. We'll just have pretend that they were grown on 12/12!

Let's say I had justed this thread in the grow diaries section or in this case the Mandala seeds section but thought it would be of some use to the 12/12 community.

To share my info I would start my thread in the Mandala section and then post a summary of my grow so far in the 12/12 thread. I started my thread in the Mandala forum on 11-19-2006 so on the same day or around that time my post here would contain simply the same set up info as the main thread but in summary form, details of my setup, the strains, the ferts the lights, the medium etc and a link to the main thread for this particular grow.

So at this stage my post here may only consist of:

A.N.other said:
11-19-2006

Method

Seedling will be started in 9cm starter pots filled with lightly fertilised John Innes based soiless mix with a touch of perlite, these will go under 30W per square foot of fluorescent lighting. Here they will remain until they have grown enough to have formed two full opposite sets of palmately compound leaves.

Moved onto 6” pots filled with a similarly low feed soiless mix, this time with nearly 30% made of a perlite/vermiculite mix under 50W per square foot of fluorescent lighting until they are ~6 inches in height.

At this point they will be moved under 50W per square foot of Metal Halide lighting until they are ~9 inches in height. At this point they will potted up into their final 8” pots. They will be left for around a week to settle into their new homes and begin filling the soil with new root growth before being put into flower under 50W per square foot of HPS at approx 12”.

For veg feeding I will be using biobizz grow...[nute notes]

Strains

Mandala Seeds - Speed Queen
[breeders description]
Mandala Seeds - Satori [breeders description]

[rationale for strain choice]

Propagation

10 seeds of each type have been placed directly half an inch down into the mix, lightly covered and watered through. Each pot is covered with a half bottle green house and has been placed in the warm propagation room...[propogation notes]

Let’s hope the seeds agree!

When I update my thread in the Mandala section I would come back into this thread and go back to my original post in the 12/12 thread and edit this with any additional pertinent info since the last update. For example feeding schedule, any notable changes etc.

So for example 01-01-2007 (update date on full grow thread) I might update my post here with:

A.N.other said:
11-19-2006

Method

Seedling will be started in 9cm starter pots filled with lightly fertilised John Innes based soiless mix with a touch of perlite, these will go under 30W per square foot of fluorescent lighting. Here they will remain until they have grown enough to have formed two full opposite sets of palmately compound leaves.

Moved onto 6” pots filled with a similarly low feed soiless mix, this time with nearly 30% made of a perlite/vermiculite mix under 50W per square foot of fluorescent lighting until they are ~6 inches in height.

At this point they will be moved under 50W per square foot of Metal Halide lighting until they are ~9 inches in height. At this point they will potted up into their final 8” pots. They will be left for around a week to settle into their new homes and begin filling the soil with new root growth before being put into flower under 50W per square foot of HPS at approx 12”.

For veg feeding I will be using biobizz grow...[nute notes]

Strains

Mandala Seeds - Speed Queen
[breeders description]
Mandala Seeds - Satori [breeders description]

[rationale for strain choice]

Propagation

10 seeds of each type have been placed directly half an inch down into the mix, lightly covered and watered through. Each pot is covered with a half bottle green house and has been placed in the warm propagation room...[propogation notes]

Let’s hope the seeds agree!

11-22-2006

[Update details]

12-12-2006

[Update details]

12-22-2006

[Update details]

01-01-2007

Moving into flowering [update details]

At the end of my full grow thread I can come back to this 12/12 thread and edit my post to contain full summarised details of the grow and the results.

So:

A.N.other said:
11-19-2006

Method

Seedling will be started in 9cm starter pots filled with lightly fertilised John Innes based soiless mix with a touch of perlite, these will go under 30W per square foot of fluorescent lighting. Here they will remain until they have grown enough to have formed two full opposite sets of palmately compound leaves.

Moved onto 6” pots filled with a similarly low feed soiless mix, this time with nearly 30% made of a perlite/vermiculite mix under 50W per square foot of fluorescent lighting until they are ~6 inches in height.

At this point they will be moved under 50W per square foot of Metal Halide lighting until they are ~9 inches in height. At this point they will potted up into their final 8” pots. They will be left for around a week to settle into their new homes and begin filling the soil with new root growth before being put into flower under 50W per square foot of HPS at approx 12”.

For veg feeding I will be using biobizz grow...[nute notes]

Strains

Mandala Seeds - Speed Queen
[breeders description]
Mandala Seeds - Satori [breeders description]

[rationale for strain choice]

Propagation

10 seeds of each type have been placed directly half an inch down into the mix, lightly covered and watered through. Each pot is covered with a half bottle green house and has been placed in the warm propagation room...[propogation notes]

Let’s hope the seeds agree!

11-22-2006

[Update details]

12-12-2006

[Update details]

12-22-2006

[Update details]

01-01-2007

Moving into flowering [update details]

01-14-2007

[Update details]

01-27-2007

[Update details]

02-09-2007

[Update details]

02-17-2007

[Update details]

03-xx-2007

[final grow and smoke evaluation]

It seems a bit of a hassle but updates in this thread only need to be brief if the source thread is linked. If full grows are posted in a thread in a piecemeal meal approach (ie I post about my seedlings in the 12/12 post, then a few weeks later in the same thread but maybe 5 pages later I post about my "veg" period then a few weeks later post back about my flowering period again maybe 5 pages later) it will be quite difficult for the viewer to try and follow the progress of these individual grows.

BUT this all depends on my interpretation of your vision of this thread. I see you wanting to create a thread that is discursive but also a useful resource itself. The one stop shop thing.

Probably rambling but who knows the above words may make some sense to someone, somewhere hehe.

Good looking out bros. :wave:

14246Satori_-_ind_dom_62_days_flowering2-med.jpg
 

Haggis123

Member
Here's my latest update on my 12/12 from seed, it's a Nirvana AK48.
Pics were taken last night which was day 4 of week 5.....I think, seem to have lost my days somewhere along the way..lol.












 
H

Hal

A.N. Other....

Thanks for the input, I need to digest it it a bit so I understand what you're getting at before throwing in my two cents.

Haggis...

Sweet! That girl is just the kind of plant folks with limited space would be looking for. Matter of fact, if the photo was more in focus, I would nominate it to be the "Poster Child" of our little thread.

Good work dude.
 

Haggis123

Member
Many thanks for comp's Hal.
Thought I would just give some of the doubters of our little club something to look at...lol.
I know the pic's could be a bit better, but I am rubbish at photography and it was also taken on a camera phone....not the best equipment to get outstanding photos.

Many Thanks. :joint:
 
H

Hal

Hey A.N. ….

I think we basically have the same thing in mind. I feel that it is important to have one post that serves as a “grow/strain report,” in order to make looking for this information efficient and usable. I think that is what you are saying as well, not to have the details of a grow be scattered all about. Your suggestion of starting a post and periodically updating it as the grow progresses, is essentially the same as my thought…except I had envisioned the grower keeping this data on their own computer until they finished the grow, at which time they would enter the all-encompassing post for future reference.

When I originally posted this thought, a few folks came back and said that allowing participants in this thread to periodically add new posts, as they saw fit, would be of use if they had questions about their grow or if they just wanted to share the progress of their garden. I can understand that position, and I can see some posters, especially newbs, wanting to put their results out there for others to see, either for answers to questions, or just a good ‘ol pat-on-the-back.

I didn’t know that about vbb having such a miniscule amount of data storage. That would be a reason to have more than one “blank post” at the beginning. That being said….I’m not sure how much tutorial information we should burden this thread with, when that same information is represented thoroughly on the IC site other place. When you get right down to it, what we are doing isn’t really all that different than other cannabis cultivators….we just change the lighting regimen, which gives us a faster harvest, and keeps the plants smaller. Those are important and useful factors, but as far as the growing goes, not too different.

For most of the “tutorial” stuff, we could just have a post in the very beginning that had links to the other areas of IC where that information is provided…like the infirmary, and organic soil, etc. That post would serve the newbs mostly, because in short order all of us learn where that info is on IC.

Regarding my “vision” for this thread…it is basically this: 1) to make sure anyone who is considering growing pot that they know this method exists and that it works great and that it could very well be the best way for them to grow pot…especially if they have restricted space, and 2) to have it serve as a reference for the various strains and how those strains respond to the 12/12 from seed lighting regimen.

Once you know about this method, and educate yourself on the basics of growing cannabis, the rest is simple. Except for the part about choosing which strain will be the best for you to grow with. This part involves the space restrictions, and if folks choose the wrong strain for their particular space constraints, it can make their growing problematic, not fun, and ultimately a pain in the ass.

Anyway…hoo boy. Sorry I got so damn wordy there! I gotta run, do some stuff. I’ll be back tonight.

BTW...ssssweeeeet nug in that photo!
 

Lofty

Member
Hal mayb u and atmosphere and in fact any other experianced 12/12 growers u know, cud write a grow guide covering all the basics including som strains already proven. this wud answer a lot of the questions and may cut down the amount of repeated enquireies that normally fill up threads. it wud b much better and easier if the guide was a sticky. :wave:
 

Creeptic

Active member
i know you guys are in the middle of sorting everything out... but i had a few questions for anyone that has grown successfully 12/12 from seed

when do you start to fert the plants? and do you skip the veg fert all together and go straight to a flowering fert? Im assuming that it would still take 3 weeks or so for the seedling to need ferts... but im also figuring at 3 weeks at 12/12 the plant would actually start flowering... so im assuming that you would maybe get 1 or 2 veg feedings in at most because of the N needed during flowering stretch... but im really not sure

second question is... when do 12/12 from seed plants normally show sex? plants have to mature first, right?

just trying to figure things out... because i have a grow going now and im going to put the plants into flower in about 2 weeks... and if i get some males im going to pull them and would like to make use of the space made from removing the fellas by trying a couple of plants 12/12 from seed...

originally i was just going to fill the space with a few clones... but i have a good amount of seeds... so i figure why not give it a try
 

Haggis123

Member
This is how I used my nutes.
I used half strength Formulex on my rockwool blocks as soon as I saw the first sign of growth out of the rockwool cube, and kept them on that for the first week.
2nd week I started on a week mix of veg nutes.
3rd week I was using 50/50 veg & bloom nutes.
4th week I was using 100% bloom nutes.

My plant started showing sex around day 17, pretty quick I thought and at that stage It still never had staggered nodes ???
 
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