New extraction technique? Rosin tech?

[MJtheIndicator]

idk if cbd is the back seat for rosin. It has been for breeding for a long time but the word is out on it now. Slightly disagree with "morph" because it's selective breeding and not natural microevolution. We created the drug strains that exist today and selected drug traits and isolated the fiber traits. So maybe we should get some land race strains, and some high cbd/thc strains and start over. I'm pretty sure that's already going on however. Lol were you referencing thag botanist that suggested cannabis actually uses us in its evolution? That's the "cannabis follows us" refference? That was a long time ago I can remember much but I liked the idea.

Thanks for busting in here and contributing. Please do stick aroind. I have a theory about rosin stability in regards to crystalline matrix. Which might help explain the strange instability of the product sometimes and how.other times it's extremely stable. I have to draw a stupid little diagram first cause it Will be easier for me then words.

Every terpene has a correlating evaporation point, when using higher temps and whole flower, rosin tends to steam. This process of distilling the essential oils depends on what temperature you're at. The terps that can withstand the higher temps are limonene, linalool, pulegone and terpineol. Get above 350F and you are losing subtle and more delicate terps that often account for the deal-closing profiles in many cup-winning strains i.e., caryophyllene, cineole, myrcene, pinene and cymene. Its argued some terpenes can act as solvent which some attribute to a white-out phenomenon or slurry when steam is introduced. Luckily all the flavonoids barring sitosterol can withstand those higher temps, but that regards taste not necessarily terp. If you consider the median temperature in the culinary world as 350F, its no coincidence that chefs rely on this universal temp in their ovens.

CBD is in the backseat regardless when you are applying heat above 150F. Plant morphology is real, they adapt to indoor conditions just as they would outdoor. If the lines are feral the morphology is natural and less immediate than what could be noticed or argued for as to how fast or resilient they are indoor being driven by farmers' whim. This has compounded an alleged downtrend in OG which is favored indoor, more difficult to produce desired profiles outdoor, yield being the historic concern.

As it stands with all the OG out there I would still debate the most popular cuts are now homozygous possibly suffering inbreeding depression, the argument for selection in this context may point to stability, but I feel you need heterozygous traits to maintain vigor and potency proof being intelligent outcrossing. To be fair intersex traits which can be traced and aren't so illusive nowadays are relative to outbreeding depression. Polyploidy is a whole other ball of wax.

As you say regarding selecting drug traits, you might be hard pressed to discount the cbd levels in cultivars from all the hash producing countries. If you look to Europe and North America, you can notice ancestral traits minus the cbd profile which were habits harnessed in the 80's as you mention and exploited in the 90's culminating in the vacancy of cbd into the millennium, ironic there is such a push towards cbd now.

When I mention that cannabis follows us I'm referencing ethnobotany, more specifically Cannabis: Evolution and Ethnobotany by Robert C. Clarke and Mark D. Merlin wherein they postulate cannabis has followed migratory routes of humans who are responsible for its historical usage.

I agree if one is committing theirself to rosin production, they do the legwork in terms of terpene/cbd/cbn profile and cross-reference heat level and duration to dial in a rosin that might not suck.

Entourage, ensemble, synergy yes to be specific the work of Shimon Ben-Shabat and Raphael Mechoulam. Caregiver I believe refers to the whole or complete actions of the healing process e.g., a complete battery of mutual medicine as opposed to the typical western ideal of isolates ill-related. I'm not endorsing this article, but I feel it can help the curious to acquaint.

I don't want to act like a pundit for whole-plant superiority, but when one is pulling flower rosin it is to be sure an essential oil with a dominant drug factor and not far removed from cold-press technology like the Dutch oil expeller which borrows from turn of the century rape seed presses. Maybe not as obsessive or potentially contaminated an operation as products like the clear or live resin, but utterly relative in scope.

I'm reminded of traditional hashish techniques which are centuries old and proven. There is a mindfulness amongst traditional top-grade product not to completely rupture the trichome (think rind of Parmigiano Reggiano), yes there is compaction to a degree, but considering a proper cure and the correct temperature the affects align with whole-plant ideology.

 

[heady blunts]

Steaming terpenes at high temperature can lead to some loud rosin, but cannabidiol has a melting point of 66 °C (151 °F). Sacrificing CBD's value as an antagonist and its resulting attenuation in the name of flavor is an analog for space-pudding that tastes like filet mignon. Slow and low decarb is arguably triggering oxidation - THC is degrading into CBN, meaning the affect one is experiencing is not that of our favorite psychoactive constituent, but rather its weaker sibling Cannabinol.

I'd love to see the paper where you got the melting point for cbd.

to me if its melting at 151*F that would seem to support my hypothesis that the rosin process may extract the cbd fraction.

however I'm confused because you seem to be asserting the CBD is being altered or destroyed in this process. please expand on that if you don't mind.

thanks for the input!

 

[Ringodoggie]

I'd love to see the paper where you got the melting point for cbd.

to me if its melting at 151*F that would seem to support my hypothesis that the rosin process may extract the cbd fraction

I don't know how accurate this is but Skunkpharm has a list of the noids and their boiling point here... http://skunkpharmresearch.com/cannabinoid-info/

There is also a reference there.

I don't see anything that boils at 151F. I used this info as my guide and I keep my temps below any of the boiling points.

EDIT: Oops, sorry. You're talking melting temps. Not boiling temp.

 

[heady blunts]

I love the stuff I've read from skunkpharm, but I haven't had a chance to go through the whole archive. thanks for the link!

I'm gonna squoosh some cbd flowers and send in a sample for testing. I will report back with my results.

 

[MJtheIndicator]

I'd love to see the paper where you got the melting point for cbd.

to me if its melting at 151*F that would seem to support my hypothesis that the rosin process may extract the cbd fraction.

however I'm confused because you seem to be asserting the CBD is being altered or destroyed in this process. please expand on that if you don't mind.

thanks for the input!

How would those suffering Epilepsy benefit from CBD that has been melted? They might be already due to the stasis of a greater science community, doesn't mean we can't do better or heal a wider spectrum. I hate sounding like a pundit for whole-plant ethos, I don't want to act like just another dickhead guru slinging solutions. I do believe the more we can preserve CBD in its original state the more effective it can be considering entourage. CBG and its relation to Cannabidiolic Acid deserves more study, these precursors might have volatility we don't understand yet.

All classes derive from cannabigerol-type compounds and differ mainly in the way this precursor is cyclized. The classical cannabinoids are derived from their respective 2-carboxylic acids (2-COOH) by decarboxylation (catalyzed by heat, light, or alkaline conditions).

Cannabinoid Profiles: A Crash Course in CBDa
Cannabidiol (CBD) and Its Precursor CBDA Inhibit Intestinal Contractions
The effects of cannabidiolic acid and cannabidiol on contractility of the gastrointestinal tract of Suncus murinus

re: melting point
Chemical Book

or

A composition for the treatment of inflammatory diseases comprising boswellic acids and cannabidiol

 

[Sunfire]

Can you like, stick around, for ever, MJTHEINDICATOR?

I'm all for whole plant! One reason I spend so much time isolating terps from already dry and tumbled trim.

I agree with yoir statement about western methodology of isolating single compounds.

I have every intention on blowing thousands on analytical, the results I will gladly share. For now though I'm jus dialing in the basics based off human experience. So much to still be learned.

So why you are here, I'd love you opinion on contamination involving ptfe or parchment coatings under extreme pressure and heat.

 

[MJtheIndicator]

If I had to choose between silicone, fluorine, chromium or wax I would choose the pH neutral wax, but moreover pulp beaten to extremes can translate into suitable grease resistance. There is also paper with high cellulose which has good resistance, problem is bufferinig it to neutrality and the consumer fetish dictating product colors. I'm here for this plant and the equal love or concern I hope we all share.

 

[Sunfire]

What about ptfe? I'm pressing on all ss just to be sure but it's be nice to actually see some analytical evidence on the matter.

I contacted my family that is an analytical chemist in another state. Pretty much the answer was that it would not be easy at all to test for such things. It is possible but would require a lot of work and money to get the point of actually being able to get results.

 

[blastfrompast]

SS for the win..

I like using glass for my collection pot also but cool silicone colors photograph better..lol

 

[heady blunts]

mj thanks for the links! that patent is especially interesting to read through.

I still was unable to identify any suggestion that "melted" has a different effect than in the crystalline form. furthermore the experiment hardly represents a full plant extraction after processing to the crystalline form or using synthetically derived cbd.

also it seems as though the melting and boiling points you specified as well as those in the links provided are for the crystalline extractum and are not given at atmospheric pressure. (1 bar = 101325 Pa = 29.92 inHg)

[0019] Cannabidiol melting point is 66 to 67°C and the boiling point is 187 to 190°C at the pressure 266Pa. It is soluble in ethanol, methanol, ether, benzene or chloroform.

[0037] Cannabis sativa extract (Cannabidiol extractum)can be isolated in a concentrated form by extracting dried green parts of Cannabis sativa with liquid carbon dioxide or other solvents (ether, ethanol, petrolether and other solvents used for extraction). In this way we obtain Cannabis sativa extractum (Cannabidiol extractum) as a material to be used directly or as a raw material to produce pure CBD in crystalic form.
[0038] Cannabidiol in the crystalic form (isolate) can be prepared by dissolving the extracted mass of Cannabis sativa extractum (Cannabidiol extract)in the form of slurry (1 kilogram) in ethanol (4 kilograms) under reflux temperature. The undissolved materials should be filtered out and the solvent distilled. The residue should be distilled with water steam (appr. 8 litres of distilled liquor) to eliminate terpene impurities (will remain in the distilation tank). The solid materials in the distilled liquor are filtered out and subsequently dissolved in petrolether (boiling point 30-60 °C)and this solution is extracted three times with water. By distilling the solvent we obtain material "red oil" which is then further purified. This material is dissolved in ethanol to which active coal is added (appr. 1 gramme per 1000 millilitres of ethanol), the solution is refluxed for 5 minutes and filtered while still hot. This procedure is repeated three times. By distillation of ethanol we obtain cannabidiol as white to colourless crystals with the melting point 66 - 67°C.

I appreciate any guidance and conversation. my goal is a whole plant medicine. rosin has become an important part of my personal medication regimen and I'd like to concentrate my cbd medicine similarly.

I've made ethanol extracts but they are not as consumable as the rosin for me.

 

[slowandeasy]

Been doing this for a couple days now. I can tell there are many factors to this technique. Moisture is very important, temps, pressure, and time. Strains seem to extract differently. My purple Cheesequake stains the paper purple and yields a darker product. I think this technique has a good future. But it is time consuming, and full extraction in one press seems difficult. I tried some fresh nugs, but they were too wet. However, I moistened the dry nugs that have been jarred for months. A little moisture seems to allow for longer presses and bigger yields. The right amount of material is another factor. Smaller amounts seem to yield better sometimes for me. If you hold too long or temps are too high, the buds seem to soak up some of the extract, yielding less on the paper. One strain seems to be more heat sensitive. Lots of factors, but I think it is possible to figure out a rough estimate with further Experimentation. Anyone think they have it down pat? Btw, I am using Hair Iron and clamp. Trying longer holds with lower temps.

What does everyone do with the Rosin pucks they collect? I know there is a lot of goodies left on mine, I vaporized a little just to see. Edibles might be good? Anyone Try other
extractions with pucks? Ethanol or butane? I am excited to try some material that will be almost dry enough to jar. It will be hung for a few days, then I will try it. I am going to predict that material that would stay stable at around 65% humidity in a jar would be almost perfect for using this technique. Too dry of material will vaporize and too wet material requires multiple presses. Does anyone have a Prototype that hits all of the factors that are needed for proper extraction, in one press? If so, please send me a link. I have sen a video of the Rosinator? Thanks

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

i got purple stained paper and purple oil with one strain, only about 10% of the time. very damp seemed to make it happen moreso. i got purple stain paper more often than purple oil.

 

[Sunfire]

Wow man you should really just go back and read the thread. Most of all your question are answered in detail and none of them have a clear or straight forward answer. Still a lot of unknows.

I have pressed bone dry flowers seeing only a 1% smaller yield from moist. Could just be ccaused i was using 6k psi. If you follow shit on instagram. everyone's press is "the one."

I'll tell you right now, no one is seeing the picture because it's still shrouded in mystery. If any one claims like they absolutely know certain things with rosin, please do ask for evidence and analytical and good log of their experiments and share them with us. I've seen very little concrete tangible evidence from all the hash gurus. Every press design seems to be focused on a slightly different piece of the picture. Multiple are all essentially the exact same but there's a lot of fluffy claims. I have a feeling someone will come along and blow our minds, may not be for a while though. I truly think the ultimate design would be rapid automated capability of doing lots of smaller presses. Like a low temp pellet mill that feeds multiple small.pistons that are constantly pumping. I think I can do a piston design for flowers or trim, but with kief, filtration is a must and becomes a fun project at high pressures. I'm too lazy to take anything to next level though. A 14 year old genius will solve the issue for us within a year is my prediction.

 

[MJtheIndicator]

What about ptfe? I'm pressing on all ss just to be sure but it's be nice to actually see some analytical evidence on the matter.

I contacted my family that is an analytical chemist in another state. Pretty much the answer was that it would not be easy at all to test for such things. It is possible but would require a lot of work and money to get the point of actually being able to get results.

Teflon, silicone, fluorine I'm lumping them together. Teflon and heat is a subject many chefs deal with already in real world scenarios, teflon doesn't have a practical lifespan which is why most prefer seasoned cast iron. In the case of rosin when pressures can approach tonnage I don't see teflon making much sense, but its a one time deal there is duration and heat level to consider. Honestly I wouldn't want to bake at 350F for extended duration on teflon regardless the product.

 

[slowandeasy]

Wow man you should really just go back and read the thread. Most of all your question are answered in detail and none of them have a clear or straight forward answer. Still a lot of unknows.

I have pressed bone dry flowers seeing only a 1% smaller yield from moist. Could just be ccaused i was using 6k psi. If you follow shit on instagram. everyone's press is "the one."

I'll tell you right now, no one is seeing the picture because it's still shrouded in mystery. If any one claims like they absolutely know certain things with rosin, please do ask for evidence and analytical and good log of their experiments and share them with us. I've seen very little concrete tangible evidence from all the hash gurus. Every press design seems to be focused on a slightly different piece of the picture. Multiple are all essentially the exact same but there's a lot of fluffy claims. I have a feeling someone will come along and blow our minds, may not be for a while though. I truly think the ultimate design would be rapid automated capability of doing lots of smaller presses. Like a low temp pellet mill that feeds multiple small.pistons that are constantly pumping. I think I can do a piston design for flowers or trim, but with kief, filtration is a must and becomes a fun project at high pressures. I'm too lazy to take anything to next level though. A 14 year old genius will solve the issue for us within a year is my prediction.

No offense brother, but I have read the whole thread..please don't assume things. None of my questions have been answered. I do not see one shred of concrete parameters/evidence to what works "best". Everyone has inconsistent comments and results. I have only been doing this for 2 days, and it would not be hard to figure out if I had access at the neccesary equipment. Many factors, but they could all be dialed in if done consistently. Starting material is very important, moisture can be manipulated to be consistent to eliminate a variable. Pressure, Time, heat can also be manipulated to be consistent...but I would prefer a device that is adjustable...because each strain I have tried yields differently. There has to be an approximent Optimal set of parameters, that would only require minor tweaking per strain. I will keep reporting my results.

 

[MJtheIndicator]

mj thanks for the links! that patent is especially interesting to read through.

I still was unable to identify any suggestion that "melted" has a different effect than in the crystalline form. furthermore the experiment hardly represents a full plant extraction after processing to the crystalline form or using synthetically derived cbd.

also it seems as though the melting and boiling points you specified as well as those in the links provided are for the crystalline extractum and are not given at atmospheric pressure. (1 bar = 101325 Pa = 29.92 inHg)





I appreciate any guidance and conversation. my goal is a whole plant medicine. rosin has become an important part of my personal medication regimen and I'd like to concentrate my cbd medicine similarly.

I've made ethanol extracts but they are not as consumable as the rosin for me.

To be fair, I was only concerned with providing a reasonable source for melting point since you asked. I should clarify that those sources aren't meant to support hypothesis regarding rosin.

I enjoy the dialogue too, thank you for talking. To argue that CBD is somehow still stable even in liquefaction when we're introducing heat, might not theoretically support anything other than breakdown. Its healthy to debate whether or not we feel CBD is still effective in liquid form, but I would ask the same of anyone "Why do you feel CBD is still effective in liquid form when taken beyond its melting point?". I think where you're coming from might, as regards crystallization concern the reverse or freezing point. And yes you are right alot of the current science is curiously lacking atmospheric data, but one can guess why. To say folks aren't testing vigorously under those conditions would be an insult to scientists worldwide.

I suppose my bottomline with CBD is over 150F with heat involved, the product can seemingly lack shelf-life (and yes they will try to augment suspension agents, yes they will force preservatives) in fact they already do... We shouldn't kid ourselves assuming that those who seek to take transdermals to market aren't skilled in suspension and preservative. Is it safe? Sure. Is it as effective? Probably no. Why? Because regardless of how high your dosage the product is bunk to begin with.

On a personal note, since you mention alcohol its good to hear you are working in that context. I can't outright say I'm a hardcore advocate concerning it, but as regards fermentation and the herb or its relation to trichomes the vehicle makes the most sense to me.

 

[Sunfire]

Tony verzura seems to like cbn. Medical perspectives but I'm unaware of psychoactive perspectives. The rosin is getting me pretty high with the right strain.

I think in general rosin is extremely unstable, in every way. Keep your slabs pressed on paper and keep em chilled. I have multi month old samples now. I've been experimenting with different storage ideas and purposely leaving samples out to see what happens. Rosin from kief seems much more stable but still loses a generous amount of terpenes after sitting out for a while.

Oh and by the way, Tony just put up a pic of the straight gold extractor prototype. If the production models is the same concepts, I'm not too impressed lol. It pretty much a big rosinator but air assisted bottle jack. Can't tell from the pics but I feel.like the whole paper is inside the plates which is a terrible mistake if so. Can't tell for sure but the size of the paper, filter sachel, and plates, makes me feel that away especially cause there's nothing on the sides to support the paper. I know at that size droop is an issue and cause problems. Judging by the 1w ton ram and the size of the filter sachel, I'm guessing about only 500 psi.

 

[Sunfire]

No offense brother, but I have read the whole thread..please don't assume things. None of my questions have been answered. I do not see one shred of concrete parameters/evidence to what works "best". Everyone has inconsistent comments and results. I have only been doing this for 2 days, and it would not be hard to figure out if I had access at the neccesary equipment. Many factors, but they could all be dialed in if done consistently. Starting material is very important, moisture can be manipulated to be consistent to eliminate a variable. Pressure, Time, heat can also be manipulated to be consistent...but I would prefer a device that is adjustable...because each strain I have tried yields differently. There has to be an approximent Optimal set of parameters, that would only require minor tweaking per strain. I will keep reporting my results.

Ok well if you read it, then you know that just like I said, there doesn't seem to be any straightforward answers yet. Most of the people dropping thousands on analytical to test everything don't really share. The few that I know that have shared with me, are super perplexed by the results. Especially.in the terpene molecular re-arrangement department.

What works "best" is relative to the all.the variables. Tech, strain, product type, heat, pressure, time, moisture and probably more we may not even realize yet.

I'm on press design 4, I do have access to all the proper equipment. I've been doing this for, idk but you could look at the date in first posted here. For me personally, and it appear many others, it's not so simple. Same with running a CLS. All the extraction masters Will tell you it's an artform. There's a lot more answers with bho than rosin right now and bho is still inconsistent in results. Even the same bag of trim yields different results with the top of the trim bag versus the bottom.

My adventures in terpene isolation have showed me a huge difference in just spraying the dried material, versus letting it soak up the moisture over time and truly be moist to core. I honestly want a big ass humidor to leave material.in for like 3 days at a set RH% to really feel sure. But I've been having great success bone dry and it certainly seems to help with stability. I personally like the terp profile bone dry more. Idk why but when you have two in front of you, dry vs moist, I swear I can taste the moisture and there's just something about it I don't like. Dry seems to lend more of a closer profile to what you get when you squeeze and so a bud. I said personally because that's me, with my press, these strains and product types being flower and 180u tumbled kief.

Ape and aqualabs went through hell to get their plates to heat evenly and accurately. With the size plates I'm using it's hard. It's all relative. Time is easy, pressure is hard. With pneumatic it's either on or off, full force or none. The air assisted bottle jack the straight gold extractor seems to use (idk they said it was the prototype but I doubt they changed that part) can be applied in fractions but there's no gauge. You can't rig one in with a bottle jack. It'd be really is to make a press frame with a gauge, you can just google press frame and you'll see lots. The H frame and A frame designs have their own problems though, I can guarantee it. A custom frame unlike any seen before in common industry is needed.

Optimal settings will be relative to the operator's desires. Together we can figure out general ideas but until we all are using the exact same presses, it will be hard to copy others results. I guarantee though, with smaller sized presses, you can figure it out pretty quick if you have the time and material to dedicate to it. I feel there will more likely have to be a refference chart. Maybe a chart for each press design and tech maybe.

Bit yoir right, there is no concrete evidence, I said that too. Which is why I said that at this point I would beware people who claim they know absolutes with rosin. I'm sure some are figuring it out but none is being shared openly on the Internet. I'd love to get crazy analytical and test everything one day.

 

[Ollie]

Tony likes CNB for the P4 formular, for one it helps promote natural tiredness / sleep.

THats why there is P1-4 , with various combinations of natural direved Phytocannabinoids.

He is doing amazing Work for the industry as a Whole.

 

[Sunfire]

Lol Ollie are you tony? If so just say so and we can all talk openly.

I wasn't bagging his work at all, I was trying to point out cbn has an important medical role as you just described.

He is indeed doing amazing work and I've said many times on this thread that I like him and appreciate the time he takes to talk with unknown people like me.

My only shit talk was on the press design, which I feel I have every right to say I wasn't impressed because that's the truth. I don't see how so many people are not stepping back and looking at the big picture. Honestly though I feel like there will be no "the one" design as everyone is after different results. Paperless is just the future though, so much waste of resources and time.