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~star~crash~
Active member
Good Morning
Good Morning
Hey there stardog
...i'm lurking..peace 
Good Morning
Hey there stardog
...i'm lurking..peace 
OldCoolSativa
Well-known member
I would grow hazes all day long if I could but the huge cost of power in my state and the grumpy patients keep me from doing so. Not exactly sure but I think we're second to only Hawaii for the price of power. They don't call it "Taxachusetts" for nothing..
Time to stop lurking in this thread.
Howdy neighbor. God bless you for growing long-flowering hazes in Massachusetts. We're seeing solar panels everywhere because our high cost of electricity subsidizes that industry. Feel better now? You can have a sanctimonious smirk on your face when you pay the power bill.
Are you growing with COBs or HPS? FYI, I just did a little cost comparison of my 640W COB setup vs 1000W HPS. Assuming 12-hours per day of lights on, $0.25/kWh electricity cost, my COBs save me $32/month, and the simple payback is about 18 months. Most industries would jump on an efficiency measure with a simple payback of 18 months. This analysis does not take into account replacing HPS bulbs or the increased cost of cooling the HPS setup, which would increase the savings and decrease the simple payback time.
Keep growing those hazes! I'll post a few picks of my Nevs crosses when I flower them.
Sound great OCS!
Hey, don't leave out the indica leaning phenos either.
Some people (me
)speculate that the afghan used in afghan haze might be the famous AfghanT, skunkiest of the plants Nev found in Jim Ortega's gear.There is no confirmed source of afgT gear used in Shanti's lines. Posts from Nevil make it clear that Nordle uses AfgS (and Ort15).
I know it seems strange to search for an afghan in a haze cross, but you might find something in there that makes you glad you did.
Happy hunting!
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Shanti had mentioned that the Afghan in Afghan Haze was the same Afghan used in the Afghan Skunk that was used in the Z series. That’s why he used the Afghan Haze crossed to a selection from the Z series to create Z8.
Whether the Afghan Skunk from the Z series is the same as Nordle I don’t know.
Whether the Afghan Skunk from the Z series is the same as Nordle I don’t know.
Lol I had no clue! I also have these beans. Or maybe I knew and forgot. I gotta write shit down! Ha
Thanks for sharing that.
NC
Classic Shanti.
All the old timers on his board know specific plant names from the Ortega gear, but when asked a direct question about what afghan is used, he doesn't say AfgS, AfgT, Ort15, or give a pedigree of the plant used. He says
"Of course! Let me help you, I know people on my board demand to know all the small details of a plant history so here it is: The unknown plant you seek to identify is the same unknown plant used in another cross. Quite simple 'eh? No great mystery. Hope this helps. We always like to be up front and transparent here at MNS where we work with the original genes and let the plants speak for themselves. Remember, the empty barrel makes the most noise ®"
See, Shanti can say that and tell himself he is being truthful, because they ARE the same, in that they are both "Jim Ortega" lines. I doubt he said they are the same PLANT.
Reading Nev's old posts, it is clear that in addition to crossing AfgT with Skunk to make Super Skunk and a few other direct F1 crosses, he did a LOT of inbreeding between the Ortega family plants, to the point that except for specific F1 crosses that he made, they can no longer be categorized as simply AfgT, AfgS, Ort15, Garlic Bud, or "the plant that made buds like big bud and smelled like bubblegum™" He also crossed these mixed batches with skunk.
It is likely that Shanti received several of batches of these breeding project seeds from Nev that he would use to make new things for himself. Nordle comes from one of these breeding projects.
Afghan Haze is different. I believe that todays Afghan Haze is an F2 from an F1 cross done originally by Nevil using a special afghan (afgT) unless you believe that Shanti is crossing the original Haze C male with some afghan he selected from one of Nev's Ortega/Skunk Mixes.
I believe this because of the quality on the afghan side in the line that is reported by so many and the fact that it looks to have zero skunk influence. If Shanti had the plant that produced that pheno, he would do other things with it.
I tend to believe that in the case of Afghan Haze, Shanti took a batch of original F1 seeds from Nev and selected an Afghan Dom Female and a Haze Dom male and crossed them. By doing this, he would preserve a spread of phenos similar (but more diverse) to a true F1 hybrid. Most people seeking to knock off a line with someone's F1s typically look for the best pheno and try to reproduce that. That would explain the difference between MNS gear and others like Greenhouse and Sensi (although Sensi just seems to have made bad selections for years without any kind of "plan".)
Anyone reading what I wrote above will see it is all opinion. I like to think I have a very informed opinion on Shanti and Nev's posts from many years of reading/discussing/analyzing them with others.
In the end though, that's just like, my opinion man
OldCoolSativa
Well-known member
Hey Raho,
It was interesting reading your opinion and it makes a lot of sense to me. I've been reading those same posts for a year now and I think Shanti is sitting on some great genetics, but his lack of transparency overlain on what I think is his fundamental honesty suggests your analysis is right, and he obfuscates information that would show he's working with F2s or higher on some of his current strains.
I've read that the Afghan Haze male he uses in his crosses is that same Afghan female crossed to Haze A, again, from Nevil's old stock. One of the reasons Angel's Breathe is a good place to look for old-school aromas, with 37.5% Haze A (theoretically). From what I've read, it's likely the Haze A is responsible for the church smell that lingers after certain rare NH phenos are burned; that's what I'm looking for. I made some Angel's Breathe F2s with a haze-leaning male but haven't tested the progeny yet.
I know if I cull 80% of 40 AfHz seedlings based on leaf morphology I'll be missing out on a lot of nice plants, but I have limited time and space and I think this will be the easiest way for me to find haze phenos in Afghan Haze. If I found a resinous plant in veg I'd keep that though.
It was interesting reading your opinion and it makes a lot of sense to me. I've been reading those same posts for a year now and I think Shanti is sitting on some great genetics, but his lack of transparency overlain on what I think is his fundamental honesty suggests your analysis is right, and he obfuscates information that would show he's working with F2s or higher on some of his current strains.
I've read that the Afghan Haze male he uses in his crosses is that same Afghan female crossed to Haze A, again, from Nevil's old stock. One of the reasons Angel's Breathe is a good place to look for old-school aromas, with 37.5% Haze A (theoretically). From what I've read, it's likely the Haze A is responsible for the church smell that lingers after certain rare NH phenos are burned; that's what I'm looking for. I made some Angel's Breathe F2s with a haze-leaning male but haven't tested the progeny yet.
I know if I cull 80% of 40 AfHz seedlings based on leaf morphology I'll be missing out on a lot of nice plants, but I have limited time and space and I think this will be the easiest way for me to find haze phenos in Afghan Haze. If I found a resinous plant in veg I'd keep that though.
Good post Raho!
Ill ask someone later if they know which one was used. My buddy isn't online at the moment.
Ill ask someone later if they know which one was used. My buddy isn't online at the moment.
All I remember is in a thread trying to figure out what the hell Z8 was, Shanti chimed in stating Z8 was a selection from the series that included Z6 & Z7. The father of that series was an Afghan Skunk and the Afghan was the same as what was used for the Afghan Haze male. He was curious if the doubling up (the Afghan) would result in anything. By mentioning “doubling up” I would think he would be referring to the same plant, although it could be the same line.
I agree, sometimes his descriptions or explanations can be cryptic, almost like you have to decipher what he is trying to be transparent about. Must be breeder speak, lol.
On a side note, didn’t Nevil leave Shanti a lot of his parent stock (as well as seeds) when he had his legal issues?
I agree, sometimes his descriptions or explanations can be cryptic, almost like you have to decipher what he is trying to be transparent about. Must be breeder speak, lol.
On a side note, didn’t Nevil leave Shanti a lot of his parent stock (as well as seeds) when he had his legal issues?
Great catch Betterhalf. The stated pedigree of afghan haze is afghan x haze C male.
Up until a few years ago, Shanti's biggest competition in the seed market was other people selling the same lines as him and claiming them as originals.
From a marketing perspective, it was very important for him to be able to say that the difference between his and theirs was that his were made with the original parents and theirs were just selections from seeds he and Nev had made..
That's a big incentive to get creative.
Other people are better at remembering the details of the history and timeline of busts that effected Nev and Shanti, but I know that Shanti was busted at one point and suspect that despite his claims to the contrary, lost some critical parents.
Several of the people I respect for their knowledge of MNS believe that the Haze C male no longer exists. The only thing Shanti needed it for was Nev's haze, skunk haze, NL5 haze and afghan haze anyway.
I just posted a request for the MNS auctions manager and instagram manager (J) over there to post a current pic of the Haze C male with today's newspaper in front of it with the date visible ;-)
He had replied in a thread to let him know if there were requests to see pics of specific parent plants
All in good fun. Gotta love a substitute teacher
Dr P!
Man that would be great to hear from the source!
To find it was pure AfgT would really clarify why it's so special.
Can you ask him if he ever sent seeds back to Dogless from the work he did with Jim's lines?
Specifically, did he send Jim Kush4 x NL#2 seeds or anything with Kush4?
Thanks brother
This is what it's being called? That's going to get confusing. I'm running a seedline right now also called Grandpa's Breath lol.
G `day BH
Yes Nevil "left" the genetics .
After Shanti , left a substantial amount of money in Nevil`s bank account .
Nevil later wanted royalties . It didn`t end well .
Thanks for sharin
EB .
Great catch Betterhalf. The stated pedigree of afghan haze is afghan x haze C male.
Up until a few years ago, Shanti's biggest competition in the seed market was other people selling the same lines as him and claiming them as originals.
From a marketing perspective, it was very important for him to be able to say that the difference between his and theirs was that his were made with the original parents and theirs were just selections from seeds he and Nev had made..
That's a big incentive to get creative.
Other people are better at remembering the details of the history and timeline of busts that effected Nev and Shanti, but I know that Shanti was busted at one point and suspect that despite his claims to the contrary, lost some critical parents.
Several of the people I respect for their knowledge of MNS believe that the Haze C male no longer exists. The only thing Shanti needed it for was Nev's haze, skunk haze, NL5 haze and afghan haze anyway.
I just posted a request for the MNS auctions manager and instagram manager (J) over there to post a current pic of the Haze C male with today's newspaper in front of it with the date visible ;-)
He had replied in a thread to let him know if there were requests to see pics of specific parent plants
All in good fun. Gotta love a substitute teacherView Image
Dr P!
Man that would be great to hear from the source!
To find it was pure AfgT would really clarify why it's so special.
Can you ask him if he ever sent seeds back to Dogless from the work he did with Jim's lines?
Specifically, did he send Jim Kush4 x NL#2 seeds or anything with Kush4?
Thanks brother
He said he made it with Afghan T, the mother of Super Skunk
I'm still running mostly hps lamps and T5's. Just started using a 315 cmh in part of my veg. I'm the kind of guy who operates on the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. Having seen other people's led grows I'm going to pass on that for the moment but you have to remember that around where I'm at I've never met anyone who would know what those guys ^^ are talking about other than Zen and I swear it's only the two of us once you go over that bridge. However the weirdest thing is that I've also never lived anywhere where people smoked more weed or paid as much for it.
Plasma lamps though, I've seen wonders from, when the people operating them know what they are doing but I have to drive until my back is killing me to see that.My low ceilings keep me running hps and MH lamps for flowering and the fact that I'm constantly broke or close to it, which is hard to figure when I look at what I actually make in a year, I only buy what I need. There's no spot on my whole property that could use a solar panel, I'm surrounded by big trees and have a million dollars worth of privacy which I wouldn't trade for anything.
My clones from the Sour Nevils F2's are all rooted and planted in coco as of yesterday. These are one of the few things I have from seed that I know will be outstanding without seeing them flowered yet. They grow so gigantic it's almost a joke and they're super sour as well so I'm looking forward to that when I finish what's going on now and come back from traveling around a bit which I'm reluctant to do but I'm afraid if I don't leave for a bit I never will. Some people around here have been as far as Boston...once... but they've been out on the grand banks 1000X. When they get back they just want to get wrecked.
Plasma lamps though, I've seen wonders from, when the people operating them know what they are doing but I have to drive until my back is killing me to see that.My low ceilings keep me running hps and MH lamps for flowering and the fact that I'm constantly broke or close to it, which is hard to figure when I look at what I actually make in a year, I only buy what I need. There's no spot on my whole property that could use a solar panel, I'm surrounded by big trees and have a million dollars worth of privacy which I wouldn't trade for anything.
My clones from the Sour Nevils F2's are all rooted and planted in coco as of yesterday. These are one of the few things I have from seed that I know will be outstanding without seeing them flowered yet. They grow so gigantic it's almost a joke and they're super sour as well so I'm looking forward to that when I finish what's going on now and come back from traveling around a bit which I'm reluctant to do but I'm afraid if I don't leave for a bit I never will. Some people around here have been as far as Boston...once... but they've been out on the grand banks 1000X. When they get back they just want to get wrecked.
This is half of my veg space as of 5 min ago. It's jammed with overgrown plants from seed I need to grab cuts from and toss along with all my cuts. It just seems like I never have the time to get down there and do the work I need to but I do manage to keep up with the watering.
I'm not against any new tech at all but I've been running this gear for so long it's hard to change...
I'm not against any new tech at all but I've been running this gear for so long it's hard to change...
~star~crash~
Active member
it's a jungle in there!
good morning
good morning
YES!!!
Thanks Doc for confirming that.
That makes Afghan Haze the only confirmed source of AfgT on the menu.
A lot of people speculate that there is Haze A in the mix for Afghan Haze, but I believe it is the camphor and spice of Afghan T that makes it different than the usual Haze C + Skunk (and/or) piney NL terps from MNS.
Nordle is a mix of AfgS + Skunk + Ort15 if my memory of old Nev posts is correct. Nothing wrong with that.
Hell yeah, that Veg looks crazy man
I think I see a snake with an apple hanging from one a dem branches ;-)
Actually managed to spend most of the day down there yesterday and cut down all the seed plants that were too big and took clones so the place looks much better today. I wanted males from the SFV BX3's and females from the Sour Nevils so luckily I concluded that project and I can actually walk around down there. Even under all my dated gear the plants were growing like crazy.
Now I just have to setup a drip system so I can leave for several days at a time and not worry. My compost pile is ridiculous with 3' of green on top of slushy snow. The new veg has been such a good space for me, no bugs except a few thrips on one smaller plant in the back and no PM or anything else.
The OG Cookie Haze from Relentless are as vigorous as my Sour Nevs so they need to go onto a slab today. Can't recall the exact lineage but the haze is SSH. In 4 or 5 weeks they've outgrown the 4" rw cubes for sure. They were under the cmh so I had to move them to the T5's as they were about to start burning. Seems like 2' is a safe distance for that lamp otherwise things burn up.
Now I just have to setup a drip system so I can leave for several days at a time and not worry. My compost pile is ridiculous with 3' of green on top of slushy snow. The new veg has been such a good space for me, no bugs except a few thrips on one smaller plant in the back and no PM or anything else.
The OG Cookie Haze from Relentless are as vigorous as my Sour Nevs so they need to go onto a slab today. Can't recall the exact lineage but the haze is SSH. In 4 or 5 weeks they've outgrown the 4" rw cubes for sure. They were under the cmh so I had to move them to the T5's as they were about to start burning. Seems like 2' is a safe distance for that lamp otherwise things burn up.
