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Need help!! Nute lock out??

dimebag_

dimebag_

Active member
i don't think its bm's or russets…people def are quick to jump to either mites or tmv on IC as the problem. I even misdiagnosed my problem for bm's recently cuz everybody on this forum thinks they have them…haha -I recently ran miticides just going by visual damage, before confirming with a powerful enough scope that I didn't even have them. So def get a scope if you think this is the issue. I needed a more powerful one than my 60X. They recommend at least 100X to be able see eggs and everything. You can't see them with a naked eye.

But just focus on your nutes and proper ph for now-

I think its just mag deficiency-or possibly cal and mag. Most people don't realize that calcium and magnesium are basically macronutrients and are just as important as N-P-K. Heres some info I found on IC. Search mag deficiencies on IC and see if the pics and description match what you're dealing with.

Calcium and magnesium are common inputs in everyone’s garden. They are the building blocks and catalysts that allow plants to flourish. They are found in the soil and in plant food and in tap water, with some well sources having extreme amounts. Most experienced gardeners tend to supplement their feed regimen with extra calcium and magnesium (cal-mag), especially those with hydroponic gardens.
Common knowledge has it is that cal-mag is pretty straight forward, that there is not much variation between the different kinds on the market or in your tap water. But is all cal-mag created equal? Would some forms of these minerals perform better than others? What forms are leading nutrient manufacturers using? How can you tell if you have a deficiency? What leads to these deficiencies and most importantly how can you avoid them? These are just some of the questions this article will attempt to answer. I will help refine your knowledge of these important components in your garden so they can help you achieve the highest quality and maximum yields of your favorite fruits and veggies.

Calcium and magnesium are the most abundant minerals in tap water.

Cal-Mag’s Key Role in the Garden

Calcium, an essential part of the plant’s cell wall structure, improves the absorption of other nutrients by the roots and their translocation within the plant. It activates a number of plant growth-regulating enzyme systems; helps convert nitrate-nitrogen into forms needed for protein formation; and contributes to improved disease resistance.
Calcium is an intracellular messenger as well and can send a signal from one cell to another telling other cells how to react or what to do. It also provides for the transport and retention of many other elements. Calcium, magnesium and potassium live in a delicate balance within plants. Too much of one will inhibit the other two. Finally, calcium is a co-factor in many enzymatic reactions. Its presence is needed to turn an enzyme on or off and allow it to catalyze a reaction.
Magnesium is part of the chlorophyll in all plants. Magnesium is the central core of the chlorophyll molecule in green plant tissue and essential for photosynthesis. Thus, if magnesium is deficient, the shortage of chlorophyll results in poor and stunted plant growth.
Magnesium also helps to activate specific enzyme systems. Enzymes are complex substances that build, modify or break down compounds as part of a plant’s normal metabolism.
Most growers incorporate higher levels of cal-mag (around 50 to 200ppm) during the first two weeks of bloom. This is when the plant takes up a higher concentration of calcium and magnesium to help facilitate the rapid division of cells, changing the plant from a vegetative process to a reproductive process. Also, during main flower set four to six weeks into the flowering process, additional cal-mag is required.
Roy Gomez, owner of Humboldt Nutrients, had a very specific viewpoint about supplementing extra calcium. “I believe that calcium should be supplemented in a feeding regimen in the early vegetative and early bloom stages. As young children, we are told to consume milk as a calcium supplement for strengthening bone density and structure. Young plants should also receive this calcium supplement to help their stock, density and plant structure.”

The Different Forms

Calcium and magnesium are found in most plant nutrients. They are also available combined into one bottle as a supplement. Some companies go one step further and separate the two giving one the ability to really dial in the perfect feed recipe. The ratio of calcium to magnesium can vary and be very specific to a particular type of plant.
Calcium and magnesium are also the most abundant minerals in tap water. The majority of the PPM, or EC reading, you obtain from a measuring device is cal-mag. The most typical form of these minerals in your untreated water is calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate. Unfortunately, contrary to popular belief, these forms are virtually unusable by plants, especially fast growing plants. The molecules of these compounds are far too large and immobile to be absorbed by the roots and transported to where the plant needs them. Relying on the cal-mag in tap water can lead to many problems which we will discuss later in this article.
Nutrient manufacturers use different forms of cal-mag and base their decision on what they feel delivers the most benefits to the type of plants they have targeted with their plant food and supplements. Below are a few examples of calcium and magnesium compounds used by nutrient manufactures:
Calcium Nitrate
Calcium Carbonate
Calcium Chloride
Calcium Gluconate
Calcium Proteinate
Calcium Acetate
Magnesium Nitrate
Magnesium Carbonate
Beyond the various compounds of these two minerals there are chelators which are used to make the cal-mag more readily available. There are vast differences in what manufacturers use to chelate their cal-mag. Most typical synthetic chelators are EDTA, DPTA and EDDHA and are classified as poly-amino carboxylic acids. Naturals chelates are also used and include humic and fulvic acid, organic amino acids or a micro-organism based chelation process, which harnesses the power of nature’s smallest creatures to “fix” plant food for easy uptake.
Calcium is always used as CA2+ within plants, but how it gets into the plant is a whole other story. Each of the various forms of calcium each has different absorption co-efficients. Each form of calcium is absorbed into the cell at different rates and requires a different method for the cell to take it in. Each method requires more or less energy for the cell to exert to do so. Some highly chelated forms of cal-mag can enter the plant’s phospholipid membrane through osmosis. The quicker the cal-mag can be absorbed, the more efficiently the plant can make use of these compounds, thus facilitating lightning fast growth and cell division.


Calcium Deficiencies

Calcium deficiency symptoms appear initially as generally stunted plant growth. Necrotic (dead) leaf margins on young leaves or necrosis around the base of the leaves is very common. In its advanced stage it can eventual lead to death of the terminal buds and root tips. Generally the new growth of the plant is affected first. The mature leaves may be affected if the problem persists. Cupping of mature leaves is a tell tale sign of a calcium deficiency.
Classic symptoms of a calcium deficiency include blossom-end rot of tomato (death of the end part of the fruits), tip burn of lettuce, blackheart of celery and death of the growing regions in many plants. All these symptoms show soft, dead necrotic tissue at rapidly growing areas.
Generally, a calcium deficiency is related to poor translocation of calcium to the tissue rather than a low external supply of calcium. Calcium has a very low mobility in plants which makes this one of the most common problems in a garden. Calcium may be available externally but it is in the wrong form for the plant to absorb readily.

Magnesium Deficiencies

Deficiencies typically occur with the middle or lower leaves. The most common symptoms are interveinal chlorosis or yellowing between leaf veins, which stay green, giving a marbled appearance. Necrosis, or death, can develop in the highly chlorotic tissue. The symptoms generally start with mottled chlorotic areas developing in the interveinal tissue and spreads to large dead spots. This begins with older leaves and spreads to younger growth.
Magnesium deficiencies are usually confused with a virus, or natural aging in the case of tomato plants. In its advanced form, a magnesium deficiency may superficially resemble a potassium deficiency. The tell tale sign of a magnesium deficiency is the interveinal chlorosis produces a raised puckered surface, with the top of the puckers progressively going from chlorotic to necrotic tissue. Other symptoms of this deficiency are fruits and vegetables tend to be small and woody while flowers never develop to their full potential.
Roy Gomez understands the important role of magnesium and states, “As aging adults, it is not uncommon for people to become magnesium deficient. There are multiple sources of magnesium supplements in the health food market. I believe that magnesium is an important element to supplement in an aging plants life. Certain plants consume large amounts of magnesium during the early and late flowering stages. If magnesium deficiencies occur in plants, it causes late-season yellowing in leaf veins and older leaves.”

How Cal-Mag Deficiencies Occur

The most common cause of calcium and magnesium deficiencies is lockout. When there is too much cal-mag already in the untreated source water being used as the base to the nutrient formula it can cause the good cal-mag in the plant food to become unavailable. Think about it this way - the cal-mag in your tap water has a large molecular structure and is very immobile in that form. These molecules try to go through your roots and up into the plant where they can be used. The molecules are too large to be absorbed efficiently and end up accumulating on the outside of the roots. This causes a road block that can lock out the good forms of cal-mag you are trying to feed them. Other key components of the nutrient formula can also be locked out and the problems escalate until your plants appear to be stunted and yellow and growth crawls to a halt.
There are ways to mitigate this problem. Fulvic and humic acid, as well as living beneficial biology, can help break down the relatively immobile cal-mag in your tap water and allow it to become more available to the plants. This process takes time and is not guaranteed to free up all the cal-mag in an efficient manner. The whole idea behind hydroponics is to minimize your time and maximize your harvests. There is no time to wait around for the cal-mag to be made available. What the plants need is cal-mag that they can readily absorb and use immediately.
Another way to acquire deficiencies is by not adding enough cal-mag to your nutrient formula when using purified water. Reverse Osmosis gives you the purest water possible and so you have to add the correct amount of cal-mag to ensure you have the proper feed solution. The best way to start your nutrient formula is to begin with purified water, add 50 to 250ppm cal-mag, and then add your additional macro- and micronutrients. The amount of cal-mag you add depends on the variety of plants, what stage in their life they are in, and the media you are using.
Certain growing media, such as coco coir, requires additional calcium due its cation exchange capacity properties. Growing in coco requires additional calcium, especially in the first few weeks of the plants life.

Best Practices to Avoid Problems

The most ideal way to avoid deficiencies is by starting with a base of purified water. That way you are not guessing how much cal-mag you have and you won’t be as susceptible to lock out problems. Reverse osmosis technology removes 95 to 99 per cent of all contaminants and the most efficient method to rid your tap water of the majority of cal-mag and other PPMs.
After having the cleanest base available you want to select cal-mag that is formulated specifically for horticulture. Going beyond this, look for labels that list several different sources or compounds of cal-mag and ensure that they have been chelated to make them that much more available to your plants. If growing organically, it is paramount that you select cal-mag supplements that have been chelated naturally with amino acids or living biology. By using these highly absorbable forms of cal-mag you are helping to ensure the healthiest and quickest growing plants.
Some nutrient manufacturers address the excessive cal-mag in tap water by marketing hard water formulas.
“Although a grower can use a hard water formula for his or her plants, it doesn’t mean they should,” said Brantley Pierce of Green Coast Hydroponics. “In many relations, people are the same as plants - what you put in is what you get out. We can feed ourselves fast food everyday to become full, but it doesn’t mean that is the best choice for living. Starting with R.O. water and building a quality nutrient profile from scratch is like home cooking. It takes more preparation and time but the results equal a higher quality of life.”
Finally, there are some brands of cal-mag that have been super chelated with living biology and are readily available to your plants. These types of cal-mag can actually be foliar sprayed on the leaves and absorbed in a matter of hours. Results can be seen amazingly fast and deficiency problems can be corrected in a matter of days.
In conclusion, it is clear that calcium and magnesium play significant roles in everyone’s garden. Having the proper forms and correct amounts will determine the final outcome of your harvest. Starting with a base of purified water and supplementing the feed formula with specific, very usable forms of cal-mag will ensure healthy and happy harvests. Pure water is the platform for continued success in the garden. cheers

pics of mag deficiency:
http://www.growweedeasy.com/sites/g...y.com/files/cannabis-magnesium-deficiency.jpg

db-
 
T

thesloppy

The yellowing across the top growth absolutely does look like a calcium deficiency, but I'm with Scrappy-doo saying that leaf curl & folding you see in a few pictures isn't coming from PH or a nute deficiency. Whole-leaf folding on a plant-wide basis would point towards humidity, but the scattered side folding, with some whorled curling and spotting, hints at bug damage to me. Unfortunately, nothing says OP can't potentially have nute deficiencies, PH problems AND bugs if he's not paying particular attention to any of them.....and if you don't have problems with one now you certainly will in the future, so you might as well get all those basics on point and double-checked, sooner rather than later.
 
B

bgandgrow

Member
What would be a good organic preventive spray? Once this meter arrives I can cancel out the water being an issue or not. I have a feeling it is an issue. I hope it's not Mites...
 
T

thesloppy

bgandgrow said:
What would be a good organic preventive spray? Once this meter arrives I can cancel out the water being an issue or not. I have a feeling it is an issue. I hope it's not Mites...
Click to expand...

Half a dozen people will give you half a dozen conflicting answers on that one, depending on pest/environment/experience. You can use diluted Dawn dish soap (or other NON-DETERGENT soaps...a detergent soap can harm your plants, so you have to pay attention) as a cheap, general pesticide that most folks can access with a half-hour drive/walk. Here's a link specifically for spider mites, but it works on other bugs too:

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/use-dish-soap-spider-mites-99718.html

Turn off your lights when/after you spray as not to burn your plants if you're already unsure about how they like the light.
 
B

bgandgrow

Member
Well I just checked the roots on a few of the bigger and smaller plants and they definitely need more room!! Probably gonna bump them up to 3gal pots let them set in for a couple days and flip to flowering. Roots look super healthy so that's a plus!
 
B

bgandgrow

Member
Scrappy-doo said:
Nute burn bro. And lockout.
Click to expand...

That's what I've been thinking from the start. I have a little runt plant off to the side that is displaying the same problems, so the light may have little factor. Gotta repot find out how bad the water is and adjust from there.
 
dimebag_

dimebag_

Active member
bgandgrow-ur on ur way kid
get an RO unit and eliminate bad well water as a possibility- plus be able to start with a zero or really low ppm….throw some cal-mag in, get that ph meter or just a simple ph tester vial with solution and dial in PH. And make sure your lights aren't too fricken low. After your transplant, if you do these things I bet your plants will be doing great.

Once you s get all that dialed, if they still don't start to look better after couple weeks. Then maybe start to look towards a pest issue. But pretty sure its not bugs.
cheers bro…good luck

dbag
 
B

bgandgrow

Member
Well guys everything you told me seemed to help a ton! They all took off and started growing great. Just received Roots Organic Master Pack and gonna feed them very lightly. Been watering with purified water ph'd around 6.1-6.7 they love it. Appreciate all the info you guys gave me to get through the problems! :woohoo:
 
G

ganjygav

Sounds like I gotta get me a water filter,I'm having problems at the moment.
Glad you got yours sorted dude , well played.
 
G

ganjygav

Bwanabud said:
What is your PPM run-off ?, what's the PH run-off ?
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Run off ph is at 5.6. Low I know but last night I run 30litres through a 10 litre pot and it made no difference at all. No idea of ppm, ain't one of the things I've been in a rush to buy. Next grow I will get a wand.

Ive started giving some calmag but only half strength and what I'm putting in of that I'm taking out of the bloom. Also not adding as much ph down, just getting it down below 7ph rather than 6.5 like usual because I don't want to overload the water and cause more lockouts.
 
Last edited:
Bwanabud

Bwanabud

Active member
ganjygav said:
Run off ph is at 5.6. Low I know but last night I run 30litres through a 10 litre pot and it made no difference at all. No idea of ppm, ain't one of the things I've been in a rush to buy. Next grow I will get a wand.

Ive started giving some calmag but only half strength and what I'm putting in of that I'm taking out of the bloom. Also not adding as much ph down, just getting it down below 7ph rather than 6.5 like usual because I don't want to overload the water and cause more lockouts.
Click to expand...

Yep that's what the problem is, not sure on your nutes/media...but low PH/salt build up can become a problem driving the PH down, and locking out nutrients....unless you're organic of course.

I looked at your grow thread, they look pretty good other than the spots...and in week 5-6 they will take a fast dive, if the problem isn't straightened out.
 
B

bgandgrow

Member
I figured my problem was the water I've been using since I started to use purified they look a ton better. I'd definitely look into the quality of your water. Gave mine a straight flush of phd purified water and they bounced right back.
 
G

ganjygav

Bwanabud said:
Yep that's what the problem is, not sure on your nutes/media...but low PH/salt build up can become a problem driving the PH down, and locking out nutrients....unless you're organic of course.

I looked at your grow thread, they look pretty good other than the spots...and in week 5-6 they will take a fast dive, if the problem isn't straightened out.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah I'm fully aware of what this shit can do believe me. Ive got one plant that's been affected longer and I'm not sure if it's getting abit late. I've basically got a week and if it don't stop with the steps I'm taking I think I will lose her.
The other plant has only just started to get a few small spots starting to appear so I'm more hopeful I'm acting in time to stop it.
Not fussed about losing a plant, I normally lose one out of a pack of seeds to hermies or some crap. I'm used to it lol.
 
G

ganjygav

bgandgrow said:
I figured my problem was the water I've been using since I started to use purified they look a ton better. I'd definitely look into the quality of your water. Gave mine a straight flush of phd purified water and they bounced right back.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah my water is among the hardest in the UK. It's like 350+ ppm from the tap in my postal address. Most of that is made up by 2 kinds of calcium.
You see when I 1st started growing about 8 years ago I never had these problems. I never heard of calmag, I never knew my waters ph.
Things were straight forward, food,water and light and I grew weed.
Everything was in the bottle nutes the plants needed. Now you gotta buy all these supplements,buy ppm and ph meters and water filters.
Mental.
 
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