Male clones transformed to Female to judge male smoking quality

[Sadhu Sciences]

Great post, this will be filed in the library, thanks SamS!

Namaste

 

[HutchMisfit]

First, I'd like to thank all the past authors of this thread, especially SamS. It's been so much to read and assimilate that it's taken a couple days, but it was completely worth it. Producing females from males has a mystery eluding me for a while.

Secondly, Will combining IAA, or a different hormone, with Ethephon (2-chloroethanephosphonic acid) induce full female expression in male plants with the added benefit of fuller flowers?

Since both Ethephon and IAA increase the overall ethylene levels, triggering female expression, is it possible that the amount of Ethephon could be reduced, producing less leaf stress, while still expressing full flowers?

I don't have any males to test this stuff on at the moment but will try testing various hormones with baseline, and reduced, amounts of Ethephon once I have one pop.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

wow such an incredibly fascinating technique thank you to all contributing. im wanting to do this as i retire an old room on some archive faceoffs and some karma bikers for a keeper male. i need to read this thread with a notepad in hand. ill have something to show for my efforts whether it be knowledge failure or some studs with which to make beans in the fall/winter.

 

[Only Ornamental]

First, I'd like to thank all the past authors of this thread, especially SamS. It's been so much to read and assimilate that it's taken a couple days, but it was completely worth it. Producing females from males has a mystery eluding me for a while.

Secondly, Will combining IAA, or a different hormone, with Ethephon (2-chloroethanephosphonic acid) induce full female expression in male plants with the added benefit of fuller flowers?

Since both Ethephon and IAA increase the overall ethylene levels, triggering female expression, is it possible that the amount of Ethephon could be reduced, producing less leaf stress, while still expressing full flowers?

I don't have any males to test this stuff on at the moment but will try testing various hormones with baseline, and reduced, amounts of Ethephon once I have one pop.

In theory, it should... one would have to verify with a small experiment though. Unfortunately, I only have IBA and some males but no ethephon.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

http://www.amazon.com/Lawn-Garden-P...=UTF8&qid=1404591844&sr=8-3&keywords=ethephon

 

[Only Ornamental]

http://www.amazon.com/Lawn-Garden-P...=UTF8&qid=1404591844&sr=8-3&keywords=ethephon

You don't happen to have a link to a site shipping also to Europe?

 

[Only Ornamental]

...

Just wanted to add something:
Ethylene/ethephon prevents cell elongation (stretch) in several plants and can cause dwarfism or small flowers if applied several times during veg and enhances flower maturation and leaf senescence. Decreases gibberellins which lead to 'maleness' in hemp.
Auxines (e.g. IAA) on the other hand leads to cell elongation, root formation, prevents senescence, and often delays or inhibits flowering. IAA levels in female hemp plants is about 30 times higher than in male plants. IAA action can be sustained/increased by combining with gibberellins.

Low to intermediate IAA levels lead to elevated ethylene levels but prevent maturation/senescence at the same time. High IAA levels rise ethylene even further but also inhibit growth and lead to enhanced maturation/senescence (autumn colours and falling leaves). Strangely, too low IAA levels have the same effect.

Taken together, the mixed application of a little bit of IAA with ethylene may be beneficial and worth a trial. Eventually, the addition of gibberellins during treatment in vegetative growth may speed up flowering... but that is rather speculative and could even annihilate the desired feminisation.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

So give it a try and get back to us with the results.
-SamS

Just wanted to add something:
Ethylene/ethephon prevents cell elongation (stretch) in several plants and can cause dwarfism or small flowers if applied several times during veg and enhances flower maturation and leaf senescence. Decreases gibberellins which lead to 'maleness' in hemp.
Auxines (e.g. IAA) on the other hand leads to cell elongation, root formation, prevents senescence, and often delays or inhibits flowering. IAA levels in female hemp plants is about 30 times higher than in male plants. IAA action can be sustained/increased by combining with gibberellins.

Low to intermediate IAA levels lead to elevated ethylene levels but prevent maturation/senescence at the same time. High IAA levels rise ethylene even further but also inhibit growth and lead to enhanced maturation/senescence (autumn colours and falling leaves). Strangely, too low IAA levels have the same effect.

Taken together, the mixed application of a little bit of IAA with ethylene may be beneficial and worth a trial. Eventually, the addition of gibberellins during treatment in vegetative growth may speed up flowering... but that is rather speculative and could even annihilate the desired feminisation.

 

[Only Ornamental]

Still awaiting the parcel; but I'll gladly keep you in the loop .

 

[crazyfool*]

awsome topic!

 

[SeedsOfFreedom]

So to date has anyone employed this technique on a medium or large scale? I would love to know if anyone has picked males out of groups with successful progeny tests after, to prove the male passed the reversed traits on?

I am all about breeding for finished product above all else. This seems to be a great shortcut for that type of breeding goal. Using groups of males that have all proven themselves when reversed may be a good idea as well. Hopefully this might mitigate the lack of other selection possible in males. One to one breeding would not be so necessary if we could choose multiple males we can see carrying the traits we want.

I suppose it all depends if the males' reversed traits are actually passed on to the progeny the majority of the time.

Thanks to everyone's contributions here, especially Sam the skunkman and Tom Hill.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

So to date has anyone employed this technique on a medium or large scale? I would love to know if anyone has picked males out of groups with successful progeny tests after, to prove the male passed the reversed traits on?

I am all about breeding for finished product above all else. This seems to be a great shortcut for that type of breeding goal. Using groups of males that have all proven themselves when reversed may be a good idea as well. Hopefully this might mitigate the lack of other selection possible in males. One to one breeding would not be so necessary if we could choose multiple males we can see carrying the traits we want.

I suppose it all depends if the males' reversed traits are actually passed on to the progeny the majority of the time.

Thanks to everyone's contributions here, especially Sam the skunkman and Tom Hill.

im getting ready to take about 50 males clones of two varieties for this exact type of run ill post up

 

[bushweed]

Nevil was reversing males to measure their worth 25-30 years ago, and still uses this technique with potential males...

I've used fruiting hormones on HzC male to get it to produce female flowers. HzC squared. We still have some of these old seeds. They produced real males and real females.

I've used Gibberelic acid on NL5 to try to get it to produce male flowers. It did, about 5 flowers in a whole room full. The Anthers did NOT contain pollen. NL5 was a true female. A true female will not produce pollen. The ability to produce pollen is a hermaphroditic trait, which may be suppressed, but must be present to produce pollen.

There is a use for feminised seed in breeding, you get to see what the "males" phenotype is before crossing. 50% of the offspring will be true females, the only way to tell is to try and get pollen from the selected female. If it won't produce pollen it's a true female.

There is a better way to do things and that is to feminise the male to check the phenotype. I did this with my Red and Blue lines of Sk1 and got great results.
N.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Nevil was reversing males to measure their worth 25-30 years ago, and still uses this technique with potential males...

Nevil was not breeding Cannabis 30 years ago, he was collecting imported seeds from coffee shops and selling them for 25 cents, I knew him and visited him many times, I also lived in the Netherlands, 25 years maybe true for Nevil.

Originally Posted by Nevil
"I've used fruiting hormones on HzC male to get it to produce female flowers. HzC squared. We still have some of these old seeds. They produced real males and real females.

I've used Gibberelic acid on NL5 to try to get it to produce male flowers. It did, about 5 flowers in a whole room full. The Anthers did NOT contain pollen. NL5 was a true female. A true female will not produce pollen. The ability to produce pollen is a hermaphroditic trait, which may be suppressed, but must be present to produce pollen.

Well this is not true at all that the ability to produce pollen is a hermaphroditic trait, maybe the ability to produce male flowers using environmental stress is intersex, or intersex linked, but I can produce pollen with STS from most "true females". I know that people have gotten NL5 to make male pollen also. Try again with a different regime using the STS.


There is a use for feminised seed in breeding, you get to see what the "males" phenotype is before crossing. 50% of the offspring will be true females, the only way to tell is to try and get pollen from the selected female. If it won't produce pollen it's a true female.

Nonsense, if you want true females then use environmental stress tests to test them to make intersex flowers, but STS will still make male flowers on most of the "true females"

There is a better way to do things and that is to feminise the male to check the phenotype. I did this with my Red and Blue lines of Sk1 and got great results."

It is not better, it is another tool to use. It does work to transform males to female to check some of their traits like Cannabinoid and terpene contents of the transformed male to female clones to be used for breeding. It is not so good to check bud form etc.
-SamS

 

[mr.brunch]

Wow what a read.
Thanks to all contributors , feels like my brain just had a three course meal

 

[harry74]

Nevil was reversing males to measure their worth 25-30 years ago, and still uses this technique with potential males...

I remember a post from Scott saying that he used STS with Neville in a ocasión that they were in " a dead end".(Breedinwise).

Probabbly cheap boasting. I can´t provide the link as I´m banned there.

What says Neville now about " passing the olimpic torch" to Scott?

 

[harry74]

Sorry Sam, but I´m trying to find out the same as Leonardo Da Vinci:



¿How are you going to fit the square into the circle?

Sorry for the off-topic, best wishes

 

[Elmer Bud]

Nevil was not breeding Cannabis 30 years ago, he was collecting imported seeds from coffee shops and selling them for 25 cents, I knew him and visited him many times, I also lived in the Netherlands, 25 years maybe true for Nevil.

Originally Posted by Nevil
"I've used fruiting hormones on HzC male to get it to produce female flowers. HzC squared. We still have some of these old seeds. They produced real males and real females.

I've used Gibberelic acid on NL5 to try to get it to produce male flowers. It did, about 5 flowers in a whole room full. The Anthers did NOT contain pollen. NL5 was a true female. A true female will not produce pollen. The ability to produce pollen is a hermaphroditic trait, which may be suppressed, but must be present to produce pollen.

Well this is not true at all that the ability to produce pollen is a hermaphroditic trait, maybe the ability to produce male flowers using environmental stress is intersex, or intersex linked, but I can produce pollen with STS from most "true females". I know that people have gotten NL5 to make male pollen also. Try again with a different regime using the STS.


There is a use for feminised seed in breeding, you get to see what the "males" phenotype is before crossing. 50% of the offspring will be true females, the only way to tell is to try and get pollen from the selected female. If it won't produce pollen it's a true female.

Nonsense, if you want true females then use environmental stress tests to test them to make intersex flowers, but STS will still make male flowers on most of the "true females"

There is a better way to do things and that is to feminise the male to check the phenotype. I did this with my Red and Blue lines of Sk1 and got great results."

It is not better, it is another tool to use. It does work to transform males to female to check some of their traits like Cannabinoid and terpene contents of the transformed male to female clones to be used for breeding. It is not so good to check bud form etc.
-SamS

G`day Sam

Nevil had very little experience growing cannabis before he arrived in Holland . And none indoors .
He had read a grow manual and grown some guerilla in Oz .

So a lot of what he applied was learnt from others or anecdotal .
Steep learning curve . Helped by great the genetics he sourced .

But what about these seeds he made with the reversed male ?
Have you done that yourself ? If yes what are the pros / cons ??



Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[harry74]

G`day Sam

Nevil had very little experience growing cannabis before he arrived in Holland . And none indoors .
He had read a grow manual and grown some guerilla in Oz .

So a lot of what he applied was learnt from others or anecdotal .
Steep learning curve . Helped by great the genetics he sourced .

But what about these seeds he made with the reversed male ?
Have you done that yourself ? If yes what are the pros / cons ??



Thanks for sharin

EB .

I don´t know what Neville did but I´m sure he did more than you.

Oh sorry, I forgot you have done GG#4 S1

 

[Elmer Bud]

G`day Harry

You give me far to much credit .
I haven`t ever sprayed silver on a plant . I plan to in the near future . But not as yet .

Elmer`s Glue is nothing to do with me bro . I don`t live in Merica ...

I have done some pollen chucking I`ll admit to .
Just followed the NVL model; source good genes . Cross every thing to every thing and see what fizzes he he .
I`m at f2 / f3 with some stuff I`m playing with . Now the real work begins .

AFAIK ,the term selfing when used by Sam means inbred .

Thanks for sharin

EB .