Male clones transformed to Female to judge male smoking quality

[Cannabologist]

Greeninthethumb

You can't "force" a non-intersex individual to reverse sex without chemical/hormone treatments. If the plant reverses it IS an intersex individual.

- Why would chemicals be any different than using stress? That's probably an unfair question..

- Why couldn't stress alone reverse a "non intersex' individual?

- Remember that when breeding out intersex traits you can always have a mutation in an individual that will result in that individual among a population bearing intersex flowers, even if you have selected the trait out in numerous generations.

- I’ve been doing some back research on this and have found some good information but have also stumbled up against some barriers. From “Genetic and Hormonal Regulation of Growth, Flowering, and Sex Expression in Plants” by M. Kh. Chailakhyan from the American journal of botany 1979– there comes this quote:"Cannabis sativa) and spinach (Spinacea oleracea) the main genes determining sex expression are the genes located on these chromosomes. In hemp, which has 20 chromosomes, XX produce female plants, and XY male ones; there is also the gene Sm, which produces male inflorescences in female plants (Yamada, 1943; Hoffman, 1952; Kohler, 1964a)."
Sources:

HOFFMANN, W. 1952. Die Vererbung der Geschlechtsfor-men des Hanfes (Cannabis sativa L.) II. Zuichter. 22: 147-158.

YAMADA, I. 1943. The sex chromosomes of Cannabis sativa. Rep. Kihava Inst. Biol. Res. 2: 64-68.

- Now, I’ve been trying to get the primary sources listed above, but even if I did, 2 out of the 3 are in a language I cannot speak, and may require someone here to be an angel and create translated versions of the papers for us to read.
​

- In general though, we now know given the above information that within female plants, which have XX chromosomes, there is possibility for there being a gene, labeled “Sm”, which will cause such female plants to bear male inflorescence.

- Is it required for a plant to have the Sm gene for environmental stress to cause female plants to bear male flowers?
- Is the Sm gene required for chemicals to alter sex expression in female Cannabis plants?

- Remember too that male plants can bear female flowers under stress or chemical applications. What gene(s) are controlling such?

- This quote and the previous study implies that “true” females will be individuals that do not bear the Sm gene.
- Thus to truly know whether you are working with a plant bearing intersex gene(s) or not, you must perform a genetic test on the individual to see if it has the Sm gene and any other intersex genes.

- Again remember in any generation of individuals mutations can occur, and this was my point; that while you are breeding for one trait or another, or selecting out traits, nature can and will always do what it wants and mutations can always arise that are unexpected and unwanted.

 

[Cannabologist]

Looking at Sam's list I don't see how the competent grower would be making many of those mistakes. Regardless, I find intersex all over the place in this pool of ours. I'm not a great grower but I'm sure I'm at least average. I can't be the only one finding and being annoyed by these expressions.

Do you think stress testing as a tool looking to eliminate potential intersex phenotypes is a completely wasted effort?

- This list comprises pretty much all environmental factors, and some pathogenic factors.
- There is again the chemical component to forcing intersex plants... Why is this different from other (artificially induced) environmental stressors?

- The genetic factor responsible for male flowers on female plants is exactly the reason for your finding of intersex plants “all over the place”.

- The reason you find it is because while one may think and believe they are selecting out intersex genes with the plants they are breeding, really they are breeding with potentially intersex individuals that bear the Sm gene (and is probably not being currently expressed).

-You will only know if a plant has this gene if you do a genetic test, you can’t just stress a plant to see if it will intersex or not to see if it has the gene, the gene could have a level of zero expression within the plant, which is good for you, that means that even though it has the gene, the phenotype (male inflorescence on female plants) will never show up, but if you breed with the plant, you can still pass on the gene, where the expression of the gene will be higher.

- While I don't think stress testing is a wasted effort realistically we should instead be doing genetics testing.

- My reading seems to suggest there is a difference between plants that intersex and female plants that may bear a few male flowers here or there sometimes...

 

[Cannabologist]

- This is a quote I took from a paper while doing some back reading I thought was of note. I forget where it's from, I added the emphasis:

​

The discoveries of McPhee (1925) and Schaffner (1928) showed that pure sexual type and hermaphrodite conditions are inherited and that the percentage of sexual types could be altered by crossing with certain hermaphrodites. However, a cross can be made which will produce nearly all pistillate or staminate individuals. If the proper pistillate hermaphrodite plant is selected as the pollen parent and a pure pistillate plant is selected as the seed parent it is possible to produce an F1, and subsequent generations, of nearly all pistillate offspring. The proper pistillate hermaphrodite pollen-parent is one which has grown as a pure pistillate plant and at the end of the season, or under artificial environmental stress, begins to develop a very few staminate flowers. If pollen from these few staminate flowers forming on a pistillate plant is applied to a pure pistillate seed parent, the resulting F1 generation should be almost all pistillate with only a few pistillate hermaphrodites. This will also be the case if the selected pistillate hermaphrodite pollen source is selfed and bears its own seeds.Remember that a selfed hermaphrodite gives rise to more hermaphrodites, but a selfed pistillate plant that has given rise to a limited number of staminate flowers in response to environmental stresses should give rise to nearly all pistillate offspring. The F1 offspring may have a slight tendency to produce a few staminate flowers under further environmental stress and these are used to produce F2 seed. A monoecious strain produces 95+% plants with many pistillate and staminate flowers, but a dioecious strain produces 95+% pure pistillate or staminate plants. A plant from a dioecious strain with a few inter- sexual flowers is a pistillate or staminate hermaphrodite. Therefore, the difference between monoecism and hermaphrodism is one of degree, determined by genetics and environment.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

You're a fan of old papers. I'll give you that

It's been my understanding that the sex differentiation genes are on the autosomes and require certain hormonal cues to be activated. Thus, every plant has the code for male or female flowers. Some plants, many perhaps, will produce the necessary hormones to reverse sex due to all the sorts of stress we've observed. Some will not produce these hormones regardless of the environment and have been termed True Females. Now even on a true female if you spray the right chemicals (which block these hormones or act as these hormones) you can induce a reversed sex phenotype because the sex differentiation genes are not on the X or the Y but the autosomes. That's how I've conceptualized a true female individual who could still be used as a pollen donor.

I wish the story was as simple as Sm controlling all this and being the key to fix our damaged pool. I don't really see it as such. Maybe the Sm is the stress response hormone gene I've mentioned above.

Thanks for posting CB, I like talking to people who know a thing or two.

 

[Cannabologist]

- Its not more so that I am a fan, it is just that many of the papers that I have are old, and many of the current topics being discussed currently have been studied somewhat in older papers as opposed to newer papers as far as I know and have found.

 

[Mt Toaker]

Really interesting thread. I didn't even know this was possible.

 

[CARE giver]

Hmmm... "STIP"?

 

[jonnybgood29]

ive got a question... if the use of ethrel will give female from male plants, would it also turn off the markers in females that decide maximum yield in female plants? thought being yield being dictacted by amount og ethelene being produced by a specific breed of plant. was wondering if anyone had tried ethrel on a female plant yet to see what it would do to it?

 

[scifiedro]

interesting i will b back to read again thank you sam for passing th knowledge.

 

[Aardwolf]

What is the case of breeding a haplodiploid to create a nullizygous line for males. They skip a generation, but you can get them back. would this not be a dioecious sub line showing 100% females. You get xx & yy, YY & XX, some species on a chromosome level show as female but are male or vice-versa.

pathenocarpy ?????

The new era has arrived. Tissue culture grown in vitro... Learning some real cool stuff this year.

Watch out for the pelleted seeds.

 

[Mate Dave]

What is the outcome when breeding a haplodiploid, will you create a nullizygous line for males? Do they skip a generation? Can you get them back? Would this be a sub-dioecious line showing 100% females? You can get xx & yy, YY & XX or all manner of genetic combinations breeding classically, including single Y. Do species phyllotaxy when on this (Special) chromosome level produce 100% pistillate plants or do they (Mutate) growing staminate parts or vice-versa?

pathenocarpy ????? Arrhenotoky

The new era has arrived with tissue culture grown in vitro... Learning some real cool stuff this year.

Watch out for the pelleted seeds.

 

[elmanito]

Significant violations of the limit-growth regulator ethephon are reason enough to turn the food-warning flags to. Finally, the health risks posed by the regular consumption of pesticide-contaminated foods are not to be underestimated. Depending on the dose of ethephon may cause skin irritation or even act as a neurotoxin in humans.

http://www.gesundheit-news.de/greenpeace-ethephon-paprika-bei-lidl-netto-tengelmann/

Hmmm, smoking males

Namaste

 

[Mate Dave]

Results Sam??

Results Sam??

I thought it was valuable so I mentioned it, shame I didn't think of it 10 years ago before all the seed breeders stopped using males and now mostly seem to use STS transformed females as males for pollen, as all female seeds sell for more...
Anyway it should be tried as it allows you to express all the normally female traits in a male (by transforming to female) and judge it for qualities that are concealed in males. Then decide if you want to use the male for breeding or not. Seems almost to good to be true. I will try it as soon as I get some ethephon, maybe next week.

-SamS

Was the female characteristic of the (Staminate Plant or male) transformed to female, conducive of the characteristics produced in all the crosses of that male Sam. Showing the SCA or GCA that the (Staminate Plant or male) possessed. Did the transformed phenotype represented show in the plants crosses? Was the plant transformed dominant or recessive for anything or did it show or promote co-dominance in particular Pistillate plants?


Did the transformed plant smoke like the parent line or did it come true to Skunk type, and if so (Which Type) (was it a pure skunk or a leaning phenotype to one or oner side of the linage).

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

All I judged is the smell taste and the strength of the high, it was not fair to judge other traits with transformed males to female.
Yes it was the same as the progeny of that male.
No.
It was like a sweet Skunk #1

Was the female characteristic of the (Staminate Plant or male) transformed to female, conducive of the characteristics produced in all the crosses of that male Sam. Showing the SCA or GCA that the (Staminate Plant or male) possessed. Did the transformed phenotype represented show in the plants crosses? Was the plant transformed dominant or recessive for anything or did it show or promote co-dominance in particular Pistillate plants?
Skunk #1 is very homozygous, this male transformed to female was very typical Skunk #1. It did not express any of the parents.
-Sams


Did the transformed plant smoke like the parent line or did it come true to Skunk type, and if so (Which Type) (was it a pure skunk or a leaning phenotype to one or oner side of the linage).

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I wonder how long after the spray did they test? I understood that ethephon breaks down to ethylene gas, fast?

"Although many environmental groups worry about toxicity resulting from use of growth hormones and fertilizers, the toxicity of ethephon is actually very low, and any ethephon used on the plant is converted very quickly to ethylene."

BTW, I did not smoke males, I smoked females transformed from males.

-SamS

http://www.gesundheit-news.de/greenpeace-ethephon-paprika-bei-lidl-netto-tengelmann/

Hmmm, smoking males

Namaste

 

[BlackBart]

I had a Blockhead male turn female with a few male stamen flowers naturally . I made a few seed with it but have not tested the results yet . What do think I have here Sam?

 

[Tonygreen]

Great read.

 

[TheRealHash]

I had a Blockhead male turn female with a few male stamen flowers naturally . I made a few seed with it but have not tested the results yet . What do think I have here Sam?

That a herm bro

 

[Pantagruelion]

Very informative thread. As much a how not to as much as a how to.

 

[elchavo]

Lol! Great!!!! I'm impressed sam! i know how to revert a female, but.... i really didn't know we can do it with males!!!! Prety goooood!!!!! yeah i can explore my males potencial before make seeds with their!!!


One love!