Male clones transformed to Female to judge male smoking quality

[ahortator]

Hi hyb.0

I have only selfed one male and it worked. So with that huge numbers is not statistically relevant. I must to repeat the process at least a few times to confirm that the method works.

I agree with you. I think I can recover M/F seeds from males. I must to grow the seeds I got.

I agree with you. I can use differents males. But as the method I used only turned female a few branches I can't be sure if the seeds are selfed or not. It is possible to cross plants from selfed seeds from diferent males to get more heterozygosity and to avoid inbreeding depression, too.

Anyway I would prefer to use males and females to make seeds, as it has been done since Cannabis is grown.

20 males are not very much. Specially considering that if YY seeds were possible, they would be only 33% of the males (or 25% of total, the same amount as females).

I must add I have smoked a reversed male bud and the high was strong

They could be used to take gynoecious lines back to traditional M/F types.

That's really interesting. Is it related with this?:

The X is the largest chromosome of all, and carries CS-1 subtelomeric repeats on both arms. The meiotic configuration of the sex bivalent locates a pseudoautosomal region of the Y chromosome at the end of the euchromatic CS-1-carrying arm.

Greetings.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

The question might be do the 25% that should be male seeds even make fully formed seeds, and then will they sprout? Then to confirm they are actually YY, I do not know.
Also males produce superior hemp fiber over the ladies, so an all male hemp fiber line could be made to use, even the USA would find it hard to not allow an all male hemp variety? No females, no THC....
-SamS

If you found that 25% of the seeds didn't even pop you would have covered more than 1% of the battle.

They could be used to take gynoecious lines back to traditional M/F types.

They could potentially further our understanding of what's in the PAR region.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24465491

They could potentially further our understanding of the difference in sex determination and sex differentiation genes in cannabis.

Nolan Kane at boulder would likely be interested in them.

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/ci_25093731/cu-boulder-prof-aims-get-inside-cannabis-genome

I guess I don't know what you'd do with them in Oregon or wherever you're at these days but I'd have a few good ideas about what to do with them in Colorado.

 

[MrBelvedere]

In terms of increasing the chances of success during Selfing, would feeding the ethephon directly to the root system via rockwool cubes in an ebb and flow table increase the chance of success? This way the plant would be getting a daily dose of the hormone rather than a weekly dose, and it would not affect the green leaves adversely. The first dosing on the ebb/flow table could be quite high and titrated down until it keeps the plant growing female flowers longer and longer that way the plant will truly think it's female instead of being confused by a weekly spraying. Thoughts?

 

[Only Ornamental]

It is possible to feed ethephon via roots but you have to consider that it's only stable at acidic pH. Once in water at pH ~6, it will spontaneously degrade to ethylene, phosphate, and chloride within a few hours if memory serves me right. In alkaline pH, the half-life is reduced to minutes.

 

[MrBelvedere]

Okay thank you

 

[kopite]

They could be used to take gynoecious lines back to traditional M/F types.

quote]

The way I was thinking would be to take the YY (from a proven XY) and cross it to evaluated XX lines that are considered superior and thus creating the XY line, then either selfing them or use anther culture to get superior progeny to further evaluate. Superior lines are what we want are they not?

(would be handy if someone had the markers for the YY rather than evaluated progeny, and Nev was and is a bullshitter.... (also there's a thread on here were mofeta spoke about this sort of proposal, think it would of been a double haploid thread)

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

It is possible to feed ethephon via roots but you have to consider that it's only stable at acidic pH. Once in water at pH ~6, it will spontaneously degrade to ethylene, phosphate, and chloride within a few hours if memory serves me right. In alkaline pH, the half-life is reduced to minutes.

how low of a ph do reckon it needs to stay stable enough to be effective in a root drench or recirculating rez treatment?
im finally gearing up to start my experiment. mine is simply just trying to reverse males to observe female traits to discerne what phenotypes they represent for selection of a breeder male. im revegging my males now. they are essentially all there and the ones that arent will likely take another month at the outside most. some males are very slow to reverse.

 

[Only Ornamental]

I looked it up again and as usual found different results...
The report from the ECHA (European Chemicals Agency) states for the degradation in buffered water:
- at pH 5: extrapolated 50-100 days (= pretty stable)
- at pH 7: 1.5-2.5 days
- at pH 9: ~1 day
Under light (UVA/B containing sunlight), the hydrolysis was found to be faster than in the dark.

Also, reports on the effect of Ethephon/ethylene with regard pH usually used foliar application and showed varying results.

If I were to use it in hydro, I wouldn't change the pH as the treatment lasts for some time and nutrient availability will become an important factor. Besides, the pH in your rez (~5.8) is so low that the compound will be quite stable.

What you should consider is that the effect depends on the absolute amount applied (for example X mg Ethephon per plant) rather than concentration (like ppm). It's possible but not very reliable to calculate from ppm sprayed to for example mg/l in your system as for one, people spray differently and for another it will not only depend on how many plants you have per litre but also on how much water your plants consume, how well Ethephon is take up by the roots, and if you have a closed system or not...

Better start low and work your way up the scale.

(EDIT: Sorry, wrote something stupid)

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

big edit. i meant to say they are reVEGGING not reversing. they are not being sprayed yet, they are pulling back out of flower and they are sometimes slow to reveg.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

thanks for the answer.
i would imagine the dose would need to be quite low given the constant uptake. unless you only let them cycle in that formula for a prescribed time.
i am only curious i am going with a foliar formula.
thanks. its tempting to try in a flood table with a bunch of males.

 

[SeedsOfFreedom]

thanks for the answer.
i would imagine the dose would need to be quite low given the constant uptake. unless you only let them cycle in that formula for a prescribed time.
i am only curious i am going with a foliar formula.
thanks. its tempting to try in a flood table with a bunch of males.

Flood table full of reversed males sounds incredible. That idea is so good it makes my soil growing ass want to go out and buy some tables!

Good luck with your breeding my friend, it sounds like you are doing some very cool stuff. I hope you find your king male with this reversal technique.

 

[Only Ornamental]

thanks for the answer.
i would imagine the dose would need to be quite low given the constant uptake. unless you only let them cycle in that formula for a prescribed time.
i am only curious i am going with a foliar formula.
thanks. its tempting to try in a flood table with a bunch of males.

It needs about the same quantity per plant no matter if sprayed or used as drench.
I guess (I don't know) that it'll be better to treat for a longer time in case of sex reversal than for example to retard growth but (big BUT) I don't know the half-life of Ethephon in the plants nor how long it has a biological activity once applied. Though, there should be literature out there regarding this subject (maybe EFSA documentation? Read HERE for yourself ).
It'll be also a good thing to wait until the plants are fully back to veg before treating them and switching back to the flowering cycle.

 

[MrBelvedere]

Thanks Ornamental for those numbers!

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Cool... that is what I was thinking of experimenting, a small ebb/flow table, and using one of these auto ph "dosers" in the reservoir to ensure it is ~5.8, but change the "window" of the doser to allow it to fluctuate to ~6.5 so it can uptake nutrients.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t44qGxZ0oHs

Then, add a slow drip of pure Ethephon into the reservoir so it always has "fresh" Ethephon that is not degraded.

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Or another option, get distilled water at 5.8 and slowly drip pure Ethephon into an automated foliar mister like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ_VRVyy6WU
...that way it is able to be scheduled / dialed in. But the hard part would be to not spray the flowers, only spray the leaves... otherwise the buds would not be smokable...

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Ornamental and yall do you think there is a "high limit" where too much Ethephon would "overload" the male and cause it to stop reversing/die?

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Finally plan D: I would take the humidifier/vaporizer from my toddlers room and drip into that, but I cannot do that or he gets dry sinus really bad.

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Has anybody ever reversed a male, gotten it to flower, and the flowers matured fully (60 days of flower)?? I imagine it would be just like reversing a female... the results are totally unpredictable (ie pollen sacs on reversed females don't fully open and have to be manually opened sometimes)

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Maybe it would be easier to just spray it manually lol

MrB

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

10 mil per liter. at first sign of clustering a little late.
should have done a few days after flip and once a week there after i think.

 

[Dave Coulier]

Your plant looks alot like mine when I attempted it using Florel. I did get calyxe's forming, but I too did it too late, and male pollen sacks pollinated almost every one. Ive always wanted to try it leading into flower. Maybe treating for a couple weeks prior, and then once each week afterwards. Maybe that will help reduce the number of sacks forming, if its even possible.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

yes my exact experience as well im going to do a redo. i didnt get back in time to pull the mfrom the green house and they turned so i went ahead and it was about a week into to showing flowers. it took almost two weeks to show pistils. i had given up and went out the other day to find this. ill try again proper style. i agree maybe even a week before would be good. no real leaf damage to speak of at 10 mils per liter.

 

[Tonygreen]

The question might be do the 25% that should be male seeds even make fully formed seeds, and then will they sprout? Then to confirm they are actually YY, I do not know.
Also males produce superior hemp fiber over the ladies, so an all male hemp fiber line could be made to use, even the USA would find it hard to not allow an all male hemp variety? No females, no THC....
-SamS

Males produce THC... no loophole there.
Yes but do they produce more than .3% THC that is the question.-SamS

 

[brock1]

Right that's it I am going to reverse a male this year again. I reversed mine with a few tomatoes last time so I will be doing the same again. I know Neville isn't a breeder more a preserver of strains and a collector but he does know how to reverse a male. Thanks to a spark of interest that was planted by Neville and his reverse male haze I successfully reversed a male so I have no doubt he has done it in the past or seen it done.

Anyway enough about Neville his name only starts fighting for some strange reason. Anyone else reversed males with a little fruit?

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

created by seedjunky: octagon kush (tk x animints) reversed male

created by seedjunky: octagon kush (tk x animints) reversed male