goingrey
Well-known member
Do you think that it is a bad idea to wait until a plant is mature to flower it out, or do you just have a competing theory for why it's a good idea?
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MadMac's haze and haze hybrid's grow & show
- Thread starter MadMac
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heres some stuff for ya. this something im currently exploring. the main idea is that the overexpression of micro rna 156 or mir156 has effects on early trichome, anthocyian, branching/leaf growth, changes to the abaxial/adaxial trichome distribution(top and bottom of sugar leaves).
the over expression is caused by aneuploidy/polyploidy OR are result of selection for later flowering plants.
mir 156 works in tandem with mir172. mir156 levels are highest at germination and they must recede to a certain point in order for flower to happen(along with the other pathways photoperiod, gibberlin, stress etc)
mir156 works by repressing a group of transcription SPLs. when the level of 156 drops, the SPLS increase and each one has a specific job to begin the bloom stage. so the mir156 are responsible for repressing about 10 functions and so tooo much 156 or "overexpression" changes life stage of the plant by inducing an "extended juvenile stage". anyone whos grown haze knows all about extended juvenile stages lol and alot of the traits found in 156 OE lines are present in haze.
this chart shows how the levels of 156 become increased. in this example tetraploidy is used but an aneuploid situation- which are more common in haze then polyploids- would produce an even more severe effect. the levels of mir 156 would be related to increased dosage of precursors due to the increase in ploidity. these changes are usually chromosome specific, so an aneuploid with an extra copy would cause a giant dosage change in precursors
this is the trichome example of an overexpressed mir156 line . very similar to some of the best haze examples.
dont wana hijack the thread but theres alot more... heres some good links
Temporal Control of Trichome Distribution by MicroRNA156-Targeted SPL Genes in Arabidopsis thaliana - PMC
The microRNA156-targeted SQUAMOSA PROMOTER BINDING PROTEIN LIKE genes, which were reported to define an endogenous phase transition pathway, temporally control the trichome distribution on the stem and inflorescences by activating the trichome ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Temporal Control of Trichome Distribution by MicroRNA156-Targeted SPL Genes in Arabidopsis thaliana - PMC
The microRNA156-targeted SQUAMOSA PROMOTER BINDING PROTEIN LIKE genes, which were reported to define an endogenous phase transition pathway, temporally control the trichome distribution on the stem and inflorescences by activating the trichome ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
cola
Well-known member
More BLAH .. BLAH .. BLAH .. None of this relates to Haze WHATSOEVER. Someone on crack, or worse yet.
These are Chinese "studies" typically put out to support current and further grant work funding. Less than credible, lol. YES. Also, note the date of these unpublished "drops" - 2010. Unpublished, intended to confuse, and to amuse.
I'll take this as a genuine question until proven otherwise. This is nothing that I have alluded to or discussed.
I'm going to break this down indoors vs outdoors. In the latter there's much less opportunity to manipulate.
The greatest factor and influence regarding flowering is the photo-period, and light concentration. And, just when is a plant "mature" as you speak of it? Take it all the way back to it's landrace region to find out. No other way I know of to do so. And, if you have HAZE, just what is that landrace region? Good question. Eh?
The more practical issue is what limitations do we have in our indoor grow. What height do we have to deal with, and how can we best control plant growth to ensure they are not too tall to exceed the light source. That is the number one limiter. I believe most people confuse in something like HAZE the number of weeks of flowering vs total growing time. This can also be influenced by taking cuttings vs starting it from seeds.
So, when is a plant mature? If you are dealing with hybrids, which most all of us to some degree are, that is something that you alone can and need to decide. Unless you have the luxury or luck in seed stock to have a known landrace you acquired on site yourself, and recorded the photoperiods and light intensities yourself.
Not sure I answered your question, but again it is not something that I had postulated or discussed. If you have anything else to ask I will be happy to answer it with the real world facts that I have. Not going to delve into the BS world of the make believe, and talk through my arse about something that I know not of.
goingrey
Well-known member
I'd say a preflowering plant is surely mature enough for flowering.
Often, maybe even usually, I don't wait that long because time is of the essence and space as well. And I like to try different kinds so usually from seed. I'd like to think this is causes just a slight increase in flowering time and not a considerable decrease in quality (whether that be because of less mIR156 or some other reason), but dunno.
Kimes
Well-known member
@cola would love to know real world facts on what besides the genetics affect the node length of landrace sativas.. Nutes, amount of available photons etc? Naturally curious as I'd love to learn solid ways of keeping the plants as short as possible without affecting the maturation time...
Any input very welcome. (from everyone)
Any input very welcome. (from everyone)
Hasch
learning and laughing
As in the stretch?
Or as in general node length?
Afaiu one can reduce the strech some what with lighting temp(color?) in the 6000k range.
Kimes
Well-known member
I think I meant the node length during stretch yes, thank you for that..
Internet is full of reasons and solutions and even on some seemingly reputable sites one sometimes reads that red spectrum hinders stretch which goes against the accepted broscience and (to some degree) my own experiences..
MadMac
far beyond driven...
So Hai
Well-known member
Hey how is the website coming along?YES ... that's the sign to me too... and it works well...
M.
Negative DIF (-DIF) is one method used in the horticulture industry for controlling stretch, or ‘cool morning pulse’ as an alternative. Effect is species dependent.
gorilla ganja
Well-known member
Take off the fan leaves as the branch they support gets about half an inch long and begins to get leaves of its own. This will slow vertical growth.
Kimes
Well-known member
Thank you ! @JKD
Found this as one of the first search results and will read it more thoroughly later after work..
Controlling Plant Height without Chemicals
The height of greenhouse plants can be controlled by a number of non-chemical cultural methods. Interest in these techniques has grown because of the tighter controls placed on the use of agricultural chemicals and the public's negative perception of chemicals in general. The Worker Protection...
key finds after quick read:
-lower morning temps than night temps
-lowering nutes and watering during stretch
-especially lower P fe: 10-1-10 better than 20-10-20
-red light inhibits stretch
-intense light during stretch
-using fans to move the plants
apologies to @MadMac if this is off topic
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cola
Well-known member
I never encourage anyone to take off fan (hand) leaves unless dealing with a mold or fungus situation.
They provide valuable light receptors, and help to moderate extremes within the internal plant itself.
Removing fan leaves does slow growth, but not desirably so, and doesn't target any one source per se.
If you have any evidence to the contrary we are all ears. Would love to see this specific documentation.
gorilla ganja
Well-known member
I don't know of any studies. There has been much debate on this, so I don't want to argue with anyone. If done correctly, it works. I've done it over and over with great success. I'm not saying it will increase yields; it will just reduce stretch and decrease the distance between nodes.
Kimes
Well-known member
Great to know.. Thanks..
Found this to be interesting:
cola
Well-known member
What you are stating is erroneous conjecture, pure and simple. You are putting out bad untrue information.
There is no biological or botanical basis for what you are stating. Joke yourself, but stick to facts with others.
We all have a responsibility to not put out crap that might lead others to actually harm rather then help. Fact.
dude..just about every single serious indoor grower removes tons and tons of leaf ..
or they are so over run that everything traps moisture even with air movement.
I would like to do it way more myself but I am TOO LAZY .. and not commercial
did you ever see the old CW pistilwhipt test plants A/B thread..it was decades ago?
leaving them on sounds more natural and of course works
but I don't know anyone who has actually tried removing leaves....go back to leaving them on
your “science" eludes me..just like every other canna scientist..
A/B pictures or it didn’t happen..
remove leaves..yes it works great .
don't remove leaves..yes it works great..
if your plants are spaced enough and you have mega air movement and don't mind having crap way down inside
pistilwhipt took every single node branch and leaf right up to 3 nodes from the end..[like 4”]
he had a side by side...photo journal..and when people doubt ted him he didn’t get annoyed..
show us your A/B not cut and paste scientific mumbo jumbo
please
Kimes
Well-known member
I am no scientist for shure, but it is a proven fact that a plant slows down (Shock) growth visibly if tampered with, like for example picking off the leaves, but given nice environmental parameters picks up the pace pretty soon after. (depending on the genes I guess, as not all plants react the same way)
There is also a need to have proper leaf area management so too many big fan leaf (usually the older leafs of course) are taking more resources than providing after a time, high light and too much foliage and branches makes weak branches and vegetative growth, thus prune off old leaf especially the fan leaf will slow the growth as most of your primary sources have been removed, non fully expanded leaf are going to be sinks and not sources so this is simplistic reason it slows the growth, it's common sense.
To this day still use a method I picked up off of Pistilwhipt from CW decades ago - but because there’s far less time manicuring. Manicuring almost ruins the growing experience for me. Don’t post pics anymore, but the few in my album are a pistlewhipt style. Not the best examples due to extensive spidermite and mold from the 6+” diameter colas, but the only pics I have.
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