MadMac's haze and haze hybrid's grow & show

[early_bird]

Thanks for the deep insights @Piff_cat + @CannaT

I can´t chime in with such knowledge but can add some observations and feeding details of my actual grow. I watched and documented carefully to learn as much as possible. Made a daily picture also.

I also wondered how much N they seems to need. I have actual issues to feed enough nutrients without having leaf buring (#7 seems to be very sensible for EC > 1.0). Would love to try organic in Future.

I like the observation that leaf yellowing is a result of low VDP. I can´t say if this is the case here from observations, but i will compare this with some future grows, i have much higher VDP in summer and will see in few month.
From my oberservations at least it feeding N worked, see from flowering day 52 on where i feed higher N and leafs stopped to get more yellow.
I put all the grow details here than you can make your own observation

Appreviations
FD 10 = Flowering Day 10

Grow Conditions
==============
60x60cm Space, 100 Watt selfmade LED (196x Samsung LM301B Evo, 4000K)

Pots
------
Clones flowered in 2 Liter Pots after rooting, topped, trained to keep low, repotted to 3.5 Liter at flowering day 21
#7 get to flower 4 days later, mentioned days are valid for #2 + #5

Temperature
---------------
quite stable with few exceptions, arround 17-18 °C at night, arround 24 °C by day in the cabinet.
Sometimes lower for short time, because of opening of the Window for ventilation.
I didn´t really monitor Humidity this time, should be arround 55-60% in the room, grow room a bit lower over day i guess because it´s warmer in there than in the rest of the room. So should be bit lower than 50% monitor it from now on an [...add/change information here later by editing post...].

Watering
-----------
Hand watering day-to-day, let them get quite dry and water as much they need for the next 24 hours.

History
---------
FD 20 Some eagle claws, thought of to much fertilizer, reason was overwatering i guess
FD 26 End of stretch
FD 48 Yellowing of lower leafs
FD 56 some Brown spots on upper sugar leafs.
FD 58 brown spots worsening fast, figured out Potassium deficite -> react
FD 61 little Leafs yellowing again

Feeding schedule
---------------------
tap water = EC 0.2 (20mg M, 35mg C)
blau = Hakaphos soft special (16-8-22 and little extra Ca + M)
rot = Hakaphos rot (8-12-24)
MKP = PK 52-34
P = Phosphor
K = Potassium (Kaliumsulphat)
Bittersalz (BS) = Epsom Salt

 

[CannaT]

humidity is of utmost importance due to the stomatas under the leaves. they need to be open to give turgor pressure to the roots for healthy veg growth. i learned this while messing up my own haze grows lol.

in a low humidity enviorment the plant loses water rapidly in leaves and as a response close the stomata. this effectively shuts down the turgor pressur which means the water/nutrients cant leave the rootzone. first consequence is cut off calcium flow
calicum can only be moved to the top newest growth thru turgor pressure and without it new growth will cease.
now my plants not transpiring theres no moisture gradient so the nutrients are confined . this spikes the ec and locks out potassium and magnesium levels essential for cholorphyl.

the leaves turn yellow which i interpreted as nitrogen deficiency, but added nitrogen makes it worse because its actually lack of potassium, magnesium and calcium caused by a chain reaction to closed stomata.
this situation happened to me often when i first grow haze and in response i personally like to keep canopy at the safe stomata level between 60-70 depending on room temp. the tricky part is creating high humidity while also promoting a warm drier rootzone with longer dry back periods. the bedrocan grow is good example of these practices, yo sammy also has alot of content about keeping the hazy ladies happy in rockwool. everyones got their ways.

Good luck with flower anything in 60-70%...
For my knowladge and expirience it is...


I like to have it around 40% with kush and haze,skunk....anything I grow.
Begining of flower (70-75% strech phase )
Mid of flowering (around 55%)
Flowers fattening (35-45%)

 

[CannaT]

Thanks for the deep insights @Piff_cat + @CannaT

I can´t chime in with such knowledge but can add some observations and feeding details of my actual grow. I watched and documented carefully to learn as much as possible. Made a daily picture also.

I also wondered how much N they seems to need. I have actual issues to feed enough nutrients without having leaf buring (#7 seems to be very sensible for EC > 1.0). Would love to try organic in Future.

I like the observation that leaf yellowing is a result of low VDP. I can´t say if this is the case here from observations, but i will compare this with some future grows, i have much higher VDP in summer and will see in few month.
From my oberservations at least it feeding N worked, see from flowering day 52 on where i feed higher N and leafs stopped to get more yellow.
I put all the grow details here than you can make your own observation

Appreviations
FD 10 = Flowering Day 10

Grow Conditions
==============
60x60cm Space, 100 Watt selfmade LED (196x Samsung LM301B Evo, 4000K)

Pots
------
Clones flowered in 2 Liter Pots after rooting, topped, trained to keep low, repotted to 3.5 Liter at flowering day 21
#7 get to flower 4 days later, mentioned days are valid for #2 + #5

Temperature
---------------
quite stable with few exceptions, arround 17-18 °C at night, arround 24 °C by day in the cabinet.
Sometimes lower for short time, because of opening of the Window for ventilation.
I didn´t really monitor Humidity this time, should be arround 55-60% in the room, grow room a bit lower over day i guess because it´s warmer in there than in the rest of the room. So should be bit lower than 50% monitor it from now on an [...add/change information here later by editing post...].

Watering
-----------
Hand watering day-to-day, let them get quite dry and water as much they need for the next 24 hours.

History
---------
FD 20 Some eagle claws, thought of to much fertilizer, reason was overwatering i guess
FD 26 End of stretch
FD 48 Yellowing of lower leafs
FD 56 some Brown spots on upper sugar leafs.
FD 58 brown spots worsening fast, figured out Potassium deficite -> react
FD 61 little Leafs yellowing again

Feeding schedule
---------------------
tap water = EC 0.2 (20mg M, 35mg C)
blau = Hakaphos soft special (16-8-22 and little extra Ca + M)
rot = Hakaphos rot (8-12-24)
MKP = PK 52-34
P = Phosphor
K = Potassium (Kaliumsulphat)
Bittersalz (BS) = Epsom Salt

View attachment 18970827
View attachment 18970831

Higher temps lower EC...Lover temps higher EC.

 

[Piff_cat]

Thanks for the deep insights @Piff_cat + @CannaT

I can´t chime in with such knowledge but can add some observations and feeding details of my actual grow. I watched and documented carefully to learn as much as possible. Made a daily picture also.

I also wondered how much N they seems to need. I have actual issues to feed enough nutrients without having leaf buring (#7 seems to be very sensible for EC > 1.0). Would love to try organic in Future.

I like the observation that leaf yellowing is a result of low VDP. I can´t say if this is the case here from observations, but i will compare this with some future grows, i have much higher VDP in summer and will see in few month.
From my oberservations at least it feeding N worked, see from flowering day 52 on where i feed higher N and leafs stopped to get more yellow.
I put all the grow details here than you can make your own observation

Appreviations
FD 10 = Flowering Day 10

Grow Conditions
==============
60x60cm Space, 100 Watt selfmade LED (196x Samsung LM301B Evo, 4000K)

Pots
------
Clones flowered in 2 Liter Pots after rooting, topped, trained to keep low, repotted to 3.5 Liter at flowering day 21
#7 get to flower 4 days later, mentioned days are valid for #2 + #5

Temperature
---------------
quite stable with few exceptions, arround 17-18 °C at night, arround 24 °C by day in the cabinet.
Sometimes lower for short time, because of opening of the Window for ventilation.
I didn´t really monitor Humidity this time, should be arround 55-60% in the room, grow room a bit lower over day i guess because it´s warmer in there than in the rest of the room. So should be bit lower than 50% monitor it from now on an [...add/change information here later by editing post...].

Watering
-----------
Hand watering day-to-day, let them get quite dry and water as much they need for the next 24 hours.

History
---------
FD 20 Some eagle claws, thought of to much fertilizer, reason was overwatering i guess
FD 26 End of stretch
FD 48 Yellowing of lower leafs
FD 56 some Brown spots on upper sugar leafs.
FD 58 brown spots worsening fast, figured out Potassium deficite -> react
FD 61 little Leafs yellowing again

Feeding schedule
---------------------
tap water = EC 0.2 (20mg M, 35mg C)
blau = Hakaphos soft special (16-8-22 and little extra Ca + M)
rot = Hakaphos rot (8-12-24)
MKP = PK 52-34
P = Phosphor
K = Potassium (Kaliumsulphat)
Bittersalz (BS) = Epsom Salt

View attachment 18970827
View attachment 18970831

man this is awesome how you track all this! looking at the history i think you absolutley right about potassium starting this problem. the more important question is WHY potassium is deficient. is it due to not having enough potassium or is something standing in the way?

the first move is to decipher the nutrient salt content and ph of the media vs the resovoir. by checking the ec/ph before feeding, then feed to run off capture the run off and ec/ph that. were on the lookout for a runoff EC that is drastically higher then the rez EC or a PH which is much more acidic then rez ph.

if the Ec is drastically higher the potassium is being locked out by high salts in rootzone. if the ph is muhc lower potassium cant be absorbed. the low ph can get especially bad. ph stops K from leaving rootzone to above ground and each runoff feeding is leaching more potassium out of the media so even if the ph is fixed the soil is comprimised.

however if your runoff levels are acceptable compared to rez, the total potassium content in your nutrient water may be too low even if the ec is right. this is least likely but you can do the math with your specific feed and compare to known K minimums

if everything else is rez wise we turn to transpiration- are the nutrients being delivered where needed? a soft stem, slow dry backs, cripsy/small leaves these point towards not enough turgor. haze A in particular drinks more and better at higher temps/humidity then usual. humidity is essential to track it will make a huge difference.

another part of transpiration is leaf surface temperature and it becomes a problem with led sometimes. hps run so hot your fighting to keep the leaf temp down, but in led it often needs to be increased. since leds put off such little infrared heat, a haze plant with high metabolism may not be stimulated enough by the limited evaporation of low surface temp leaf. adding supplmental heat is always a good idea here

 

[early_bird]

Analysis and Update...
Thanks for the analysis guide @Piff_cat

I mixed a nutrient solution with PH arround 6.5 and EC of 1.1 and measured the drain.

Drain values:
(i gives ranges instead of clear numbers, due several measurements, different plants, etc.)
EC = 1.8 - 1.9
PH = 5.5 - 5.8

To low PH together with to high EC, here is my problem.
So i know what´s up, now it´s time to fix it.

High EC is the easy fix, it should already improve by now because i had quite some drain.

Harder is the PH problem. I have water with EC 7.5 which i adjust to 6.5, but don´t have a glue why my PH got so low, which is 10 times lower than it should be. May even more, when i feed 6.5 and get 5.6 then the soil PH should even be lower. Only solution for now is to don´t regulate the tap water and leave it at 7.5 for now.
Also watch how the plants develop and may repeat to water with drain in a week, measuring again.

But i also very proud of the strong plants, doing really awesome in such a hostile enviroment

 

[Piff_cat]

Nice man so that was easy. The EC and PH problem is a chain reaction to increased sodium in the media. This could be due

1. not enough run off

Most common scenario would be not enough run off when feeding nutes trapping the salts in rootzone. Spike in EC drops the PH into acidic levels which makes nutrient uptake nearly impossible.
makes it worse that Potassium isn't available foliar which sucks.

keeping your PH meter calibrated can help avoid some problems. even if its only lying by a couple points it can be enough. i like to store the probe in 7.0 reference solution. when i turn it on if it doesnt say 6.9-7.1 i recalibrate. this is not important for EC meter though.

high ec and low ph will have damaged your roots and this is why the first step to fix is to let the rootzone dry out significantly. this will stop the progression of root rot and stimulate new root growth. youll notice new healthy growth at nodes pop out of the bad stuff and thats your que resume watering.

always good to err on the side of high PH if the plant has had potassium issues. a ph below 5.8 is much more damaging then one above 7. the accumulation of nutrient salts is what causes the low ph, so when you resume keep the PH on high side.

more details to consider


rootzone issues-
media dried out too much which spikes the EC.
over watering/ not enough dry back in between feedings.
potassium washes out of soil easily
drainage run off too close to bottom rooztone keeping a perpetual soggy bottom rootzone. ample clearance and airflow beneath the pot guards against this.

low rootzone temperature inhibits phosphorous uptake and causes lower turgor pressure which effects calcium content. heating pad helps this alot. plus a foliar sprayed under the leaves of kelp calmag humic acid can help jumpstart. calicum is highly available in foliar form compared to potassium which is not.

transpiration
led isnt putting out enough infrared heat for ideal transpiration rates. the nutrients build up in the rootzone when they cant move up.
the top branches aent receiving enough water to replace highest stems transpiration

 

[MadMac]

Nice man so that was easy. The EC and PH problem is a chain reaction to increased sodium in the media. This could be due

1. not enough run off
View attachment 18973078

Most common scenario would be not enough run off when feeding nutes trapping the salts in rootzone. Spike in EC drops the PH into acidic levels which makes nutrient uptake nearly impossible.
makes it worse that Potassium isn't available foliar which sucks.

keeping your PH meter calibrated can help avoid some problems. even if its only lying by a couple points it can be enough. i like to store the probe in 7.0 reference solution. when i turn it on if it doesnt say 6.9-7.1 i recalibrate. this is not important for EC meter though.

high ec and low ph will have damaged your roots and this is why the first step to fix is to let the rootzone dry out significantly. this will stop the progression of root rot and stimulate new root growth. youll notice new healthy growth at nodes pop out of the bad stuff and thats your que resume watering.

always good to err on the side of high PH if the plant has had potassium issues. a ph below 5.8 is much more damaging then one above 7. the accumulation of nutrient salts is what causes the low ph, so when you resume keep the PH on high side.

more details to consider


rootzone issues-
media dried out too much which spikes the EC.
over watering/ not enough dry back in between feedings.
potassium washes out of soil easily
drainage run off too close to bottom rooztone keeping a perpetual soggy bottom rootzone. ample clearance and airflow beneath the pot guards against this.

low rootzone temperature inhibits phosphorous uptake and causes lower turgor pressure which effects calcium content. heating pad helps this alot. plus a foliar sprayed under the leaves of kelp calmag humic acid can help jumpstart. calicum is highly available in foliar form compared to potassium which is not.

transpiration
led isnt putting out enough infrared heat for ideal transpiration rates. the nutrients build up in the rootzone when they cant move up.
the top branches aent receiving enough water to replace highest stems transpiration

good one!
well over the last 20 years intensiv sativa growin' and observing...
there is a lot to take care off....
1. Room Temp day/night -> max 25/18°C -> very very important or the stretch too much...
2. PH & EC levels... PH 6.5 is fine EC never over 1.2 ... 1 is fine too
3. Room humidity -> start wet like 70% than go down to 40-50% @ the end - use dehumidifier and all is good!
My preferred method of growing my OHz and crosses are to veg for as long as you have space for, take cuttings and flower those mature cutting at a 11light/13 dark cycle. This method greatly reduces the flowering time and increases the quality enormously.

i'll also switched to autopot system that works superb' for my needs ... also when i'm away for some weeks as of now...

together with BioTabs it's a perfect system for sativa growin' ...

this is all pure organic... no chemical fool proof system... i'll don't feed anymore !
and if than little Orgatrex and Bio PK top dressing...
since i'll switched ... no trouble anymore ... better taste and fantastic yield...
it's so simple that it's too simple for some ... haha
just use Organic soil... put in 2-3 bio tab's ...
and let the plant grow ... no need to feed first 10 weeks...
than give little Orgatrex and Bio PK top dressing... that's all
after harvest... remove the top layer but keep the root's from the plant...
use Startrex & Mycotrex & Bactrex like shown @ BioTab's to fresh up the soil...
put in 2-3 biotab's ... and done... wait 10 weeks again... and use Orgatrex and Bio PK top dressing...
no PH & EC problems... no water issues no feeding issues ... best tasting indoors weed i've grown so far!
well best taste is organic outdoors in the sun... sure
if you consume the stuff your' growin',
to me it's most important to use NO chemicals... !
otherwise brain damage and getting sick over time...
it's a slow progress and saw that often last years...

well that is only my experience ... others may be different ;-)
but i'll prefer organic over everything else...
be still @ work and away from home ... only WE @ home ...
but soon all is better and i'll can focus on the next steps...
Sam's OHz and old Skunk ... never released to the public ...
and also my hybrids for in and outdoors...
legalization is becoming real now here in germany !
and i'll have a place @ MaryJane in Berlin with my gear...
waited 20 years for this become real... !

wish all a great time
M.

 

[Piff_cat]

The long veg then clone and flower is so important. Not just for flower time also quality as you say. There's a veg maturity complex driven by micro RNA 156. 156 levels are highest at germination and the level must drop in order to make bloom possible. However higher 156 levels in veg impart more branching and trichomes in flower. This may be why haze can lose magic when outcrossed to faster flower indica. The faster blooming indica has lower 156 levels at germination much less branching and trichomes early on

 

[Kimes]

The long veg then clone and flower is so important. Not just for flower time also quality as you say. There's a veg maturity complex driven by micro RNA 156. 156 levels are highest at germination and the level must drop in order to make bloom possible. However higher 156 levels in veg impart more branching and trichomes in flower. This may be why haze can lose magic when outcrossed to faster flower indica. The faster blooming indica has lower 156 levels at germination much less branching and trichomes early on

Interesting info @Piff_cat , Would love to learn more about that RNA 156 stuff, but no luck (or too dumb to find) with google etc. Any pointers?

 

[Hasch]

The long veg then clone and flower is so important. Not just for flower time also quality as you say. There's a veg maturity complex driven by micro RNA 156. 156 levels are highest at germination and the level must drop in order to make bloom possible. However higher 156 levels in veg impart more branching and trichomes in flower.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge
Very interesting!

Details in the RNA156 would be great.

Have a good day everyone

 

[cola]

The long veg then clone and flower is so important. Not just for flower time also quality as you say. There's a veg maturity complex driven by micro RNA 156. 156 levels are highest at germination and the level must drop in order to make bloom possible. However higher 156 levels in veg impart more branching and trichomes in flower. This may be why haze can lose magic when outcrossed to faster flower indica. The faster blooming indica has lower 156 levels at germination much less branching and trichomes early on

I have extensive academic training in tropical botany, tropical agriculture, and biology.
What you describe is not only untrue, but has no scientific basis to it. It is total malarkey.
Show us a link describing what RNA marker 156 does or controls. There isn't one at all.
Regarding plant auxins, the vegetative period does not have anything to do with trichomes.
Next time you want to come on the internet and show us all how brilliant you are try reality.

 

[Rgd]

but i'll prefer organic over everything else...

I am doing it the “old" organic way...

interesting ..

plant a tab and just water

 

[early_bird]

Flowering Day 78

I´m quite lost to judge how "ready" theese Baby´s are :/
At some Buds are shooting new growth like there is no tomorrow, but on other buds trichs seems to get already brown.
I started to just feed water for "flushing", but now i´m not so sure anymore.

Overview (#2 right front, #5 right back,#7 left)


#2
Here are the example of a lot of new growth, plant looked quite ripe before

#2 Lot of clear trichomes, but also brown visible


#5
seems to flower slowest, but most "hybrid" looking, with more dense buds


#7 - some buds


#7 the trichs



I smoked already a test bud of #7. Just a very very little one.
It was insane, crazy up high full of paranoia, i get insane from this. Didn´t wanna leave the house.
It was so strong, crazy.

 

[JKD]

I have extensive academic training in tropical botany, tropical agriculture, and biology.
What you describe is not only untrue, but has no scientific basis to it. It is total malarkey.
Show us a link describing what RNA marker 156 does or controls. There isn't one at all.
Regarding plant auxins, the vegetative period does not have anything to do with trichomes.
Next time you want to come on the internet and show us all how brilliant you are try reality.

If you use the search term miR156 you find a bunch. Aligns with some of what Piff states. Haven’t seen any specific to cannabis yet, but I also haven’t really looked.

 

[cola]

If you use the search term miR156 you find a bunch. Aligns with some of what Piff states. Haven’t seen any specific to cannabis yet, but I also haven’t really looked.

Show us what you got, oh Great Swami.
Like the other fella, talk is just that. Talk.

 

[JKD]

Show us what you got, oh Great Swami.
Like the other fella, talk is just that. Talk.

I’m sure you can operate a search. I don’t have a dog in this, not worried if you do or don’t.

 

[Mimpi Manis]

So... which of you has the chops to come to any conclusions re this current little can of worms? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304423823001826

 

[Hasch]

So... which of you has the chops to come to any conclusions re this current little can of worms? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304423823001826

Thank you for this.
Will attempt to get a sense of the paper later on and get back here with my findings (am a layman).

Have a good week everyone

 

[cola]

I’m sure you can operate a search. I don’t have a dog in this, not worried if you do or don’t.

You had enough dog to begin yapping and howling like a hyena, right?
Unfortunately, you don't have enough stones to admit that is all it was.

So... which of you has the chops to come to any conclusions re this current little can of worms? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304423823001826

You Asked, So - These Are the Conclusions Of The Above June 2023 PUBLISHED Study Shown In Quotes Below :

"The roles and regulatory mechanisms of miR156 has not been systematically reviewed and how to elucidate its biological mechanism need to be addressed."

Piff_cat said:
The long veg then clone and flower is so important. Not just for flower time also quality as you say. There's a veg maturity complex driven by micro RNA 156. 156 levels are highest at germination and the level must drop in order to make bloom possible. However higher 156 levels in veg impart more branching and trichomes in flower. This may be why haze can lose magic when outcrossed to faster flower indica. The faster blooming indica has lower 156 levels at germination much less branching and trichomes early on

The Above June 2023 PUBLISHED Study Shows : No conclusive findings regarding what Piff_cat said. Whatsover.

The Above June 2023 PUBLISHED Study Shows : No scientific basis for any of the conclusions that Piff_cat made.

 

[JKD]

You had enough dog to begin yapping and howling like a hyena, right?
Unfortunately, you don't have enough stones to admit that is all it was.

You got that from this innocuous post?

If you use the search term miR156 you find a bunch. Aligns with some of what Piff states. Haven’t seen any specific to cannabis yet, but I also haven’t really looked.

I don’t have an opinion on this topic, but these were found using the search term miR156. They align with some of what Piff states:

Developmental Functions of miR156-Regulated SQUAMOSA PROMOTER BINDING PROTEIN-LIKE (SPL) Genes in Arabidopsis thaliana

Author Summary In Arabidopsis, miR156 acts by repressing the expression of 10 SQUAMOSA PROMOTOR BINDING PROTEIN-LIKE (SPL) genes. The phenotype of plants over-expressing miR156 demonstrates that these genes control many aspects of plant development and physiology, but the functions of individual...

journals.plos.org

Functional and evolutionary analyses of the miR156 and miR529 families in land plants - BMC Plant Biology

Background MicroRNAs (miRNAs) are important regulatory elements of gene expression. Similarly to coding genes, miRNA genes follow a birth and death pattern of evolution likely reflecting functional relevance and divergence. For instance, miRNA529 is evolutionarily related to miRNA156 (a highly...

bmcplantbiol.biomedcentral.com

Characterizing the Role of the miR156-SPL Network in Plant Development and Stress Response

MicroRNA (miRNA) is a short, single-stranded, non-coding RNA found in eukaryotic cells that can regulate the expression of many genes at the post-transcriptional level. Among various plant miRNAs with diverse functions, miR156 plays a key role in biological processes, including developmental...

www.mdpi.com

Frontiers | Contemporary Understanding of miRNA-Based Regulation of Secondary Metabolites Biosynthesis in Plants

Plant's secondary metabolites such as flavonoids, terpenoids, and alkaloids etc. are known for their role in the defense against various insects-pests of pla...

www.frontiersin.org

Frontiers | An overview of the gene regulatory network controlling trichome development in the model plant, Arabidopsis

Trichomes are specialized epidermal cells located on aerial parts of plants and are associated with a wide array of biological processes. Trichomes protect p...

www.frontiersin.org