Local materials

[Rico Swazi]

Hey Rico, great to hear from you!
I’ve done quite a few experiments into laze fare gardening, with minimal inputs and in-fact last year I didn’t amend my beds with anything in an attempt to limit nitrogen and therefore starve the leaf spot disease of nutrients and bolster cell walls with slower growth; resistant plants still did very well but l could check that off my list of theories.
As for atmospheric pollutants, l know there’s many monitoring stations across the globe but I’m not sure if there’s a list available that cites the recorded material or the actual fall out.
It’s a very interesting study and one of the earliest documented reports of pollution, that l know of, was in late 1700’s London by a Count Rumford who pondered, that the black soot over everything was unburnt coal and from memory, came up with a mathematical model for tonnage. This in turn led him to redesign fireplaces, for more efficient burning and become one of the founding fathers of thermodynamics.
As for the phosphoric acid being available to the roots of plants, l keep getting stonewalled by the acid having to change form before uptake. It seems it has to be ionised from H3PO4 to a plant available H2PO4 or HPO4.
Anyone got any thoughts or links??
I hope Christmas is shaping up to be a good one for everyone,
Cheers,
40.

Hey 40, good to see you too brother



laze fare ? I do believe you have that turned around. Mixing potions and concoctions ferments and the like, into some sort of brawdo juice to make your plant grow seems the easy way (laze fare) compared to building healthy soil biology, tilth and structure. Only way I know how to do that is by accumulating clean biomass and either using it as mulch or composting. Low input doesn't mean starving your plants, it means avoiding over application of nutrients and or PGRs and non interference regarding the biological processes in play.


For me, a good part of being a good steward of the land requires observation into how nature wants to play the game in ones own particular microclimate and soil condition.

Most important - is the humility to accept the simple truth, WE do not always know what is best... often creating problems where there were none in our garden. Been there done that and the older wiser me says 'Best to let nature take the lead' and be there when services required.


Three of us share a clandestine grow that did extremely well without blood, bone, biochar, chicken pellets, Great White or the like. Handful of gypsum and heavy mulch is all we did to achieve this-

People round where I live are starting to take notice of healthy plants with less pest and pathogen problems and the resulting harvest . Proof in the pudding damn straight less is more

 

[Microbeman]

You know it Rico. Regenerative farming by some other title, lost 20 years back. Rocking chair shit.

 

[40degsouth]

That looks lovely Rico, l appreciate the work that goes into a season to get to that point.
I believe we’re both on the same page when it comes to our gardens and laze fare may not be the best way to get my point across but l do like my blood and bone and experimenting with different inputs that’ll feed the micro heard.
Following Dan from Rebel Grown, helped me to realise that a plant only needs what it needs and feedings change throughout the season, Jesse Dodd, or Biovortex, is also doing some wonderful experiments and teaching, into living soil.
The cannabis community are, without doubt, the world leaders into natural farming techniques and what we’re doing here is the future.
40.

 

[Microbeman]

That looks lovely Rico, l appreciate the work that goes into a season to get to that point.
I believe we’re both on the same page when it comes to our gardens and laze fare may not be the best way to get my point across but l do like my blood and bone and experimenting with different inputs that’ll feed the micro heard.
Following Dan from Rebel Grown, helped me to realise that a plant only needs what it needs and feedings change throughout the season, Jesse Dodd, or Biovortex, is also doing some wonderful experiments and teaching, into living soil.
The cannabis community are, without doubt, the world leaders into natural farming techniques and what we’re doing here is the future.
40.

I did watch a couple of youtube clips after you mentioned Jesse Dodd. He is not wrong and what he espouses like the use of wood chips, cover crops, encouragement of bugs, etc is good. Perhaps he himself realizes this is nothing new. Some acknowledgement of pioneers who discovered/hypothesized what living soil really is would be refreshing. I could be jumping the gun and have just missed where this may have occurred.

Some of the people I know of who opened the doors to microbial based and regenerative growing are Vigdis Torsvik, Marriane Clarholm, Michael Bonkowski, Bryan Griffiths, Luebke family, Steve Diver, Betsy Ross. There are others for sure but the credit goes too often to those with the biggest mouths, supported by the sparkly cannabis world, 29% THC and that jazz. Typical big business crap.
I often perceive conceit and over-knowledge [sic] emanating.

I did not check out Dan, the Rebel yet but if what you say is true; "that a plant only needs what it needs and feedings change throughout the season" and that this means one must change feedings specific to the plant, I'm not sure this is something that would fit into a living soil technique but I can be wrong, of course.

I learned many years ago, what many repeat now, which is 'feed the soil, not the plant'. This is the reason I advocate for topdressing of matter. [The method described by Rico above for their successful harvest]

We did use compost teas (ACT), which obviously sink into the depths but these were not made to feed plants. They are microbial shotgun bursts, meant to bolster and stimulate the soil microbial activity of bacteria, archaea, flagellates, naked amoebae and fungi. This practice, we found also lessens pathogen incidents. FYI ACT was used more on indoor grown plants.

We did however use ACT less frequently on our outdoor and greenhouse crops. We used a 4500 litre multi airlift bioreactor and pumped this through an overhead irrigation system. In my notes, which you may have read, I shared that once we followed advice to add fish hydrolysate to the finished ACT prior to application. We did add 20 litres and upon checking with the scope, I observed a large reduction in microbial activity. We never practiced this, thereafter.

As you have mentioned, we did also apply fish hydrolysate to plants/soil. In retrospect, knowing more now about the added phosphoric acid, I might decline to use this in living plant scenarios. It is a good bacteria/archaea and fungal feedstock so using it in ACT [at beginning of the cycle] is acceptable and it is a good way to get nutrients into soil in farming if one can afford it. [e.g. broadcast over acres]

Well, I rambled on a bit; just wanted my 2 cents in there. I think this whole 'natural ag' thing [in the Western-modern world] will continue going forward and backwards. There will always be the plant feeders who think they have their thumb on the scale [maybe until they learn] scoffing at the lazy natural growers.

As I have said, if it works, you're having fun and you are doing no harm...carry on.

Vive Laissez-faire

 

[Rico Swazi]

had to rely on laze fare fonix since failing high school french and spanish


You mentioned doing no harm, I have a rough draft for a thread that deals with biochar and the negative effects it can have on soil, plant and human life. Thought I would post it here for review since the subject recently came up again.

..................................

Biochar Heresy

The hyperbole over black carbon has blinded critical thinking for too long
time to clear the ash and soot from our collective minds.

This thread is for posting of scientific data to bring into the light the negative effects of biochar.

No need to post testimonials, pics or papers in favor of the practice. Plenty of that around.

scientific data with thoughtful discussion of biochar's negative effects is the thread topic

TIA here we go.

Much is known about the potential advantages of biochar. However, some important knowledge gaps exist about its drawbacks. A big debate exists about the impacts of biochar on soil health. It thus becomes pertinent to explore the response of soil microbes to biochar addition. It is equally important to assess whether biochar is equally good as biomass. Although many research reported positive effects of biochar with respect to soil microbial health yet, in recent times, negative effects of char in relation to soil microorganisms has also been realized

https://file.scirp.org/Html/1-2750062_46045.htm

Application of biochar to soils may result in plant contamination and human cancer risk due to exposure of polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH)
The total ILCR for adults was above 10?6, which suggests a risk to human health from direct exposure to PAHs in vegetables grown in biochar-amended soil.

The PAH levels in biochars produced using different conditions and/or feedstocks need to be evaluated and biochars should be pretreated to remove PAHs before their large-scale agronomic application.

Vegetable uptake and accumulation of PAHs may result in human toxicity and increased the incremental lifetime cancer risk. Thus, not all biochars are safe for use in agricultural soil.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412018311000




Many unknowns need to be answered BEFORE widespread acceptance and application




I've just begun my search for data. Time is an issue as it is for many. Links to scientific papers exposing the dangers of the dark so that I may add them here would be greatly appreciated and I Thank you.

 

['Boogieman']

had to rely on laze fare fonix since failing high school french and spanish


You mentioned doing no harm, I have a rough draft for a thread that deals with biochar and the negative effects it can have on soil, plant and human life. Thought I would post it here for review since the subject recently came up again.

..................................

Biochar Heresy

The hyperbole over black carbon has blinded critical thinking for too long
time to clear the ash and soot from our collective minds.

This thread is for posting of scientific data to bring into the light the negative effects of biochar.

No need to post testimonials, pics or papers in favor of the practice. Plenty of that around.

scientific data with thoughtful discussion of biochar's negative effects is the thread topic

TIA here we go.

https://file.scirp.org/Html/1-2750062_46045.htm

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412018311000




Many unknowns need to be answered BEFORE widespread acceptance and application




I've just begun my search for data. Time is an issue as it is for many. Links to scientific papers exposing the dangers of the dark so that I may add them here would be greatly appreciated and I Thank you.

I have been aiming for about 10% biochar in my soil. I discovered about two years ago that guerilla growing with biochar resulted in less water visits, better drought resistance, and bigger and healthier plants. Thanks for the links, I have some reading to do.

 

[Microbeman]

I've just begun my search for data. Time is an issue as it is for many. Links to scientific papers exposing the dangers of the dark so that I may add them here would be greatly appreciated and I Thank you.

Rico; Are you asking for input here or is this carry-over from another thread?

The biggest danger and downside to me has always been pollution released into the atmosphere when burning.

Lemme look at your links.

 

[40degsouth]

Just when l thought it was safe to get back in the water you throw a left handed curveball Rico......ya bugga.
The carbon molecule has the biggest surface area of any other and becomes plant available very quickly.
Busy, busy, busy....but I’ll check it out.
Come on HH....what do you recon??
Love this juxtaposition,
40.

 

[Microbeman]

Rico; quick note. The first [bacteria numbers] study, I'm finding confusing to read. To me it seems the description of some methods were skipped over but I'll take another run at it, then proceed to your next citation.

 

[Rico Swazi]

That is why I didn't want to post the info without having more eyes on it. .Just a rough draft ,not a thread... yet.



I would be fine with a total rewrite. My hope was and still is that your input and that of other members could put the words and phrasing together that would entice people to read, understand and ultimately stop promoting the use of it on these forums so science can catch up to the fad. I recognize your efforts to do the same for the same reasons. Environment and the cancer risk wondering if people will be regretting the indiscriminate use 30,50,100yrs from now.



couple more links for your perusal,


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0038071717306648
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301479719301951
optional: this blast from the past which material may or not be included in the final exam.
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/bewareTheBiocharInitiative.php

 

[Rico Swazi]

I have been aiming for about 10% biochar in my soil. I discovered about two years ago that guerilla growing with biochar resulted in less water visits, better drought resistance, and bigger and healthier plants. Thanks for the links, I have some reading to do.

You are welcome, in 2008, friends and I attended a seminar by Paul Wheaton on hooglies with a short discussion on biochar that was fast becomming a 'thing' . Wish there was a transcript as it was quite well done. His views haven't changed and there is evidence to support what he has been saying all along and that is biomass would be better in most cases.

https://permies.com/t/2366/biochar-hugelkultur


the supporting study- (same link as I posted earlier)

The present study suggests that biomass serves as the source of energy and nutrition for the soil microbes which provide the substratum for soil health. Though, nowadays, biochar is gaining widespread credibility to address soil quality, it is not as much beneficiary as the biomass. Though produced from biomass, it exerted a negative effect on the abundance and proliferation of soil microorganisms. It might be for relative stability, pH and physical properties of biochar; general lack of energy; and loss of readily utilizable carbon sources. Source of biochar is also an important factor which needs to be pondered before using it in agricultural soils.

https://file.scirp.org/Html/1-2750062_46045.htm

 

[Rico Swazi]

Just when l thought it was safe to get back in the water you throw a left handed curveball Rico......ya bugga.
The carbon molecule has the biggest surface area of any other and becomes plant available very quickly.
Busy, busy, busy....but I’ll check it out.
Come on HH....what do you recon??
Love this juxtaposition,
40.

bugga... southern hemisphere fonix for heretic ? Have to agree on that one 40.
Heres a bit of brain fodder from the blood bone heresy handbook I'm writing.

There are 808 blood meal suppliers, mainly located in Asia. The top supplying country or region is China, which supply 100% of blood meal respectively.

https://www.alibaba.com/countrysearch/CN/blood-meal.html


the probability of adulterated dangerous products coming from China should have everyone rethinking blood, bone and feather meals.
UREA anyone?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_adulteration_in_China


my solstice/holiday gift to you and all 40, Singing with Jose,
"Fleas on your dog!"

 

[h.h.]

I recon I need to water more. I tend to be neglectful. Good genetics pulls me through. Top dress is sporadic. If I were to check the pH in my bins accurately, it would probably vary from spot to spot.

I don’t use blood meal. It’s a chore. I’d rather use products that break down slowly. Then I can think about other things. I only want instant when I’m starting from nothing. Even then I’ll use ACT or fermentations. I have tons of manure.

I just need to water more.

 

[40degsouth]

I’m going to tell Santa you need a rain cloud for Christmas hh.
Been a fair bit of information and questions, in the last few weeks of discussion but I’m going to ask Rico if you’re biggest concern with blood and bone is the imports from China may contain detrimental inputs??
I source mine from a local abattoir because l noticed the store bought type contained a significant amount of small, shiny stones. Paying by the kilo, l felt a bit ripped so l found another source which was exponentially cheaper and exactly what it said it was.
I pondered on what these stones were and realised that they must of come out of the gizzards of birds that had been slaughtered and because of the smooth, shiny, nature this thought process led me into the gizzards of worms, containing sand, producing silica. I asked Microbeman about it but he believed l was drawing a long bow.
Perhaps if we give quartz pebbles to our fowl for their gizzards, to grind up food, they may produce more silica than one may realise.
And Microbeman, l’ve been wondering about your ACT’s that were done, mainly, for your inside grows that you described as a “shotgun burst” for the soil. Do you believe these die off quickly feeding the plant or, live and multiply in the soil, releasing nutrients for some time and then die?? I guess I’m asking, are we brewing a sacrificial live stock to feed the plants??
As a side note, I’ve always wondered if tailoring feeds for plants, at different stages of development, fits into a truly living soil.
Dan was known as “Ganja Rebel” when he was here at Icmag and has a few threads.
I also top-dress and like the “no till” philosophy.
Have a great Christmas everyone,
40.

 

[40degsouth]

Ohhh yeah and Rico.....Fleas have fleas that itch ‘em and bite ‘em and so on and so on, to infinitum.
And here’s a little something you may or may not have heard....”It cost me thirty bucks to fix me budgie”

 

[h.h.]

I generally top feed in the beginning, then forget about it. I don’t feed the stages. Maybe if I did, I’d remember to water.

I think my birds eat enough sand to maximize silica production. I do feed my hatchlings a rich mix of lintels, flax, oats, oregano, ground up with alfalfa, kelp, fish flakes, whatever I may have. What they don’t eat, gets mixed in with the droppings. It all serves a dual purpose.

I grind it in the blender with a little water. After a few hours, it will start rising. The lintels seem to influence it. I think since they’re high in protein.

 

[St. Phatty]

You are welcome, in 2008, friends and I attended a seminar by Paul Wheaton on hooglies with a short discussion on biochar that was fast becomming a 'thing' . Wish there was a transcript as it was quite well done. His views haven't changed and there is evidence to support what he has been saying all along and that is biomass would be better in most cases.

https://permies.com/t/2366/biochar-hugelkultur

Sometimes you don't even have to bury the wood - because it's already buried ! ! !

Preparing my 2021 gardens yesterday. Sort of like the Terraced Rice Paddy approach.

In the foreground - a bit of Char. I did some controlled burns in this area.

But I forgot my rake !

A shovel isn't much use in this situation, the char is only a few inches deep.

When I dig by hand, there is a SERIOUS smell of healthy soil.

A great place to be a termite or a carpenter ant !!

The plants' roots get bathed in a solution of worm castings, and termite castings, and ant poop.

 

[h.h.]

Sometimes you don't even have to bury the wood - because it's already buried ! ! !

View Image

Preparing my 2021 gardens yesterday. Sort of like the Terraced Rice Paddy approach.

In the foreground - a bit of Char. I did some controlled burns in this area.

But I forgot my rake !

A shovel isn't much use in this situation, the char is only a few inches deep.

When I dig by hand, there is a SERIOUS smell of healthy soil.

A great place to be a termite or a carpenter ant !!

The plants' roots get bathed in a solution of worm castings, and termite castings, and ant poop.

That’s exactly what I think of when starting a garden.

Be careful with those controlled burns. Underground fires are possible.
I know.
Long story. Thankfully it wasn’t longer.

 

[h.h.]

Ants

https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ecs2.1639

 

[St. Phatty]

That’s exactly what I think of when starting a garden.

Be careful with those controlled burns. Underground fires are possible.
I know.
Long story. Thankfully it wasn’t longer.

more than possible. when it's dry, with all that saw dust, and a little air flow, it's like a slow motion explosive.

I tried to dig it out, did about 10 controlled burns in the area with the deepest ravine full of buried trees, partially just to get down to the sand & gravel to look for Gold.

Had to give up, too time consuming.

Now I know why miners use EXPLOSIVES.