Local materials

[Teddybrae]

OK. I won't come back here again.

Well, if you are not into natural growing, this is probably not the thread for you. There are many inputs like bloodmeal which are considered organic but which as you have learned 'force' nutrients into the soil solution. Other things which I've noted to do this are like various rock minerals used at too great a rate in a mix.

These experiences and the knowledge of how the microbial living soil hierarchy functions have made me more trusting of truly sequestered nutrients. I have outlined in other documents to the best of my ability how this works.

You may find these in stickies here or on my old webpage.

 

[art.spliff]

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[40degsouth]

Hey everyone, l hope you’re all well and taking it easy.
I’m hoping I’ve attached a photo of a garden bed, as l described a page or two back, with compost mulches, top dressed on weeds, basically used as a green manure crop.
Cheers,
40.

 

[h.h.]

This is a little silly from the perspective of creating a soil mix. Read up about soil level hierarchy.

His analogy may be overblown. Not completely silly. Blood, scat, dead animals, all part of nature. What I don’t see is a wolf kill by every tree. Rather it’s scattered by forces of nature. What one may see in the Bush is a rats nest. Sprinklings of nitrogen. Not handfuls. Thimblefuls.

I think of N products as catalysts, though that’s not necessarily correct. A little bit to prime the pump...feeding the yeast maybe? Something to get a brew started.

 

[40degsouth]

I’m outdoors, so should l take into consideration the high levels of nitrates in rain water, formed in the atmosphere by lightning, ionising nitrogen gas into plant and bio available form????
How far do we take it before it becomes toxic??
40.

 

[Microbeman]

His analogy may be overblown. Not completely silly. Blood, scat, dead animals, all part of nature. What I don’t see is a wolf kill by every tree. Rather it’s scattered by forces of nature. What one may see in the Bush is a rats nest. Sprinklings of nitrogen. Not handfuls. Thimblefuls.

I think of N products as catalysts, though that’s not necessarily correct. A little bit to prime the pump...feeding the yeast maybe? Something to get a brew started.

You guys are not listening; Soil microbial hierarchy; Read it for fuk sakes. Nutrients flow naturally top down- Gravity you know.

 

[Microbeman]

http://www.microbeorganics.com/#Living_Soil

 

[Microbeman]

OK. I won't come back here again.

Teddy, certainly everyone has their own successful growing methods. My evolution to natural growing came from many years of trials using most of the prescribed methods and thousands spent on research and laboratory creation.

Over years the clearer path to healthy soil and plants indoors and out defined itself as trusting the development of 'living soil' rather than struggling to control all facets. Allowing the influx of insects, mushroom bodies and dirt became overall as productive as the paranoid anal approaches; but with less pathology; Also a fraction of the cost.

I first came to this forum encouraged by Tad from KIS so that I could share these 'things' I had learned. I regret some of the argumentative stances I took at first. These spoke to my immaturity at the time.

I did find kindred spirits here; Jaykush, 3 little birds, who had discovered the same realities.

Some took the 'living soil' concept to be defined as a self-supportive mix - water only. Nothing really wrong with this because one must begin somewhere to await the soil coming to life.

Personally, I have been unable to comprehend the 'cooking/composting' phase of this commercial soil because in my world I use mostly already composted inputs.

BUT do topdress some needed matter.

 

[40degsouth]

Thanks Microbeman,
I’ve always believed, when you’re guiding people through the darkness, your light has to be the brightest.
I’ve read your link and attached document and enjoyed it very much; in fact l take my hat off to the depth of your research given it’s the only other paper I’ve read that cites the possibility of over use of phosphorus leading to lung cancer, due to the radio isotope, palonium 210. The other, cited the incidents of lung cancers, in smokers, pre and post WW2 as evidence for this.
One major question for me is, which acid, or combination there of, did you find most effective in PH’ing down your feeds in order to ionise (unlock) nutrients??
I’ve been using apple cider vinegar and PH’ing to 5.5 in solution.
Cheers,
40.

 

[Microbeman]

Thanks Microbeman,
I’ve always believed, when you’re guiding people through the darkness, your light has to be the brightest.
I’ve read your link and attached document and enjoyed it very much; in fact l take my hat off to the depth of your research given it’s the only other paper I’ve read that cites the possibility of over use of phosphorus leading to lung cancer, due to the radio isotope, palonium 210. The other, cited the incidents of lung cancers, in smokers, pre and post WW2 as evidence for this.
One major question for me is, which acid, or combination there of, did you find most effective in PH’ing down your feeds in order to ionise (unlock) nutrients??
I’ve been using apple cider vinegar and PH’ing to 5.5 in solution.
Cheers,
40.

pH is not something I found a need to control in soil. As stated the swings provided by plant/microbe/soil solution interface can happen in periods of hours [maybe less]

What do you mean by in solution? Soil solution in correct terms refers to that very small pocket of soil adjacent to feeder roots,

The times when I did adjust pH down to 5 territory was when we were doing trials with large actively pumping hydroponic units. We used a reservoir which constantly flowed through vertically aligned 3 or 4 inch pipe. As I recall we pHed down with citric acid which is one of the acids released by roots. The growth factor was phenomenal but so was the fungal pathogen levels and mites.

This system helped bring about my thinking for creation of vertically situated soil bins in a no-till method. This was the game changer for me for indoor growing and comprehension of living soil. We achieved good yields with much less disease and pests.

 

[40degsouth]

Thanks Microbeman,
I was more thinking about the solution being “the liquid feed” for plants. It was very late at night when l finished reading and didn’t make myself as clear as l should of, sorry.
You mentioned using, hydroslate(?) fish emulsion as part of a natural feed, obviously when plants need it. Do you PH down these feedings, was the crux of my question?? It was Tom Hill who dropped this knowledge as well as talking about how soils work in horizon rather than a blob of everything jumbled up and how certain elements and nutrients are held within different horizons, or hierarchys as you describe them. This information changed my life and has led to an unhealthy amount of time researching and reading as well as my own hypotheses and experiments.
Side by sides of plants fed with PH’ed down feedings did better than their sisters and from my reading, the ascetic acid in the vinegar is balanced very quickly due to microbial action and more likely, the exchange of hydrogen electrons to ionise nutrients in the soil solution; explained very simply and eloquently in your paper, I’d like to add. This in turn would have a cascade effect of plant and bio available nutrients as well as blooms of certain microbes.
You cited a list of some of the organic acids released by the plants through exudates, or by the microbes themselves and l surmised that you must have experimented with some of these for PH’ing down as l have and in fact, l have citric acid sitting on my shelf for this very reason.
I read and understood, that you do not PH the soil itself and when the light bulb goes on and one realises the plant, as a being, has the ability to manipulate it’s environment, within the soil horizon, through the use of exudates, it becomes a sort of, “duhhh, why would you bother” kind of argument, i.e. the plant itself has its own ability to buffer the soil around its roots, as long as the soil is not to wildly swung to acid or alkaline and is in a volume and moisture, to support life.
40.

 

[40degsouth]

Here is an example of what I’m talking about , acid and alkaline loving plants, healthy and living in symbiosis in the same bed, top dressed with elemental sulphur at the end of last season, with the aim of achieving a soil of 6.5 PH.

 

['Boogieman']

Thanks Microbeman,
I was more thinking about the solution being “the liquid feed” for plants. It was very late at night when l finished reading and didn’t make myself as clear as l should of, sorry.
You mentioned using, hydroslate(?) fish emulsion as part of a natural feed, obviously when plants need it. Do you PH down these feedings, was the crux of my question?? It was Tom Hill who dropped this knowledge as well as talking about how soils work in horizon rather than a blob of everything jumbled up and how certain elements and nutrients are held within different horizons, or hierarchys as you describe them. This information changed my life and has led to an unhealthy amount of time researching and reading as well as my own hypotheses and experiments.
Side by sides of plants fed with PH’ed down feedings did better than their sisters and from my reading, the ascetic acid in the vinegar is balanced very quickly due to microbial action and more likely, the exchange of hydrogen electrons to ionise nutrients in the soil solution; explained very simply and eloquently in your paper, I’d like to add. This in turn would have a cascade effect of plant and bio available nutrients as well as blooms of certain microbes.
You cited a list of some of the organic acids released by the plants through exudates, or by the microbes themselves and l surmised that you must have experimented with some of these for PH’ing down as l have and in fact, l have citric acid sitting on my shelf for this very reason.
I read and understood, that you do not PH the soil itself and when the light bulb goes on and one realises the plant, as a being, has the ability to manipulate it’s environment, within the soil horizon, through the use of exudates, it becomes a sort of, “duhhh, why would you bother” kind of argument, i.e. the plant itself has its own ability to buffer the soil around its roots, as long as the soil is not to wildly swung to acid or alkaline and is in a volume and moisture, to support life.
40.

Fish hydrolysate will probably contain phosphoric acid. I use fish hydroslate to ph down my high ph well water. I only use about a teaspoon per gallon. A normal feed calls for about 1-2 tablespoons. I'm not sure if phosphoric acid is organic but my bottle often grows white mold if it sits around for a while.

 

[40degsouth]

Hey Boogieman,
that’s very interesting and l can’t believe l haven’t ever thought of PH’ing fish emulsion, talk about an inquisitive mind.
I’ve just read the ingredients for the “store bought” one l use and although it doesn’t mention ingredients, which would include preservatives, it does say it runs at a PH of 3.6.
From my research, l believe, phosphoric acid is not plant available, however a new “organic certified”, systemic fungicide uses it as it’s mode of action (for lack of terminology that eludes me at this time)
It’s a group 33 and is called Phosic 600.
40

 

[Microbeman]

Fish hydrolysate and fish emulsion are 2 entirely different things.

Yes the phosphoric acid is available to roots. This is why we always diluted it sufficiently. It is not strictly organic but slips through the commercial process with OMRI, etc.

There are natural enzymes which can create hydrolysis but the process is lengthy and thus more costly.

 

[40degsouth]

Thanks Microbeman you’re %100 correct, l need to be more mindful of my terminology. “Emulsion” seems to be a generic term amongst gardeners here for “hydrolysate” but l don’t think “emulsion” is even a product that’s available. Anyway, for those who may not know, fish hydrolysate is a far superior product due to the way it’s processed. As for the phosphoric acid, I’m going to need to do some further research; thanks for putting me down the right path.
Cheers,
40

 

[Rico Swazi]

I’m outdoors, so should l take into consideration the high levels of nitrates in rain water, formed in the atmosphere by lightning, ionising nitrogen gas into plant and bio available form????
How far do we take it before it becomes toxic??
40.

Dry deposition is a thing to consider as well as carbonic acids. Why not cut back and see what you can grow with the least amount and then up the ante ? Works for me and my garden.

sequestered nutrients and atmospheric deposition is a large part of natural growing. Been telling nonbelievers the science is there needing more monitoring stations to quantify the amount.

here in the states we have this pathetic database called castnet run by the ineffectual EPA.

https://www.epa.gov/castnet

screenshot taken over a year ago

I know if the data was there, the amount of N from the acre of grass next door for example would be known

Do other countries have monitoring stations ? Downloadable data?

it has been suggested that these stations monitor carcinogens also but wont hold my breath on that one either. 20 yrs ago I was part of concerned citizens right to know effort what was in our food. The DARK ACT(Pompeo) took care of that.

 

[40degsouth]

Hey Rico, great to hear from you!
I’ve done quite a few experiments into laze fare gardening, with minimal inputs and in-fact last year I didn’t amend my beds with anything in an attempt to limit nitrogen and therefore starve the leaf spot disease of nutrients and bolster cell walls with slower growth; resistant plants still did very well but l could check that off my list of theories.
As for atmospheric pollutants, l know there’s many monitoring stations across the globe but I’m not sure if there’s a list available that cites the recorded material or the actual fall out.
It’s a very interesting study and one of the earliest documented reports of pollution, that l know of, was in late 1700’s London by a Count Rumford who pondered, that the black soot over everything was unburnt coal and from memory, came up with a mathematical model for tonnage. This in turn led him to redesign fireplaces, for more efficient burning and become one of the founding fathers of thermodynamics.
As for the phosphoric acid being available to the roots of plants, l keep getting stonewalled by the acid having to change form before uptake. It seems it has to be ionised from H3PO4 to a plant available H2PO4 or HPO4.
Anyone got any thoughts or links??
I hope Christmas is shaping up to be a good one for everyone,
Cheers,
40.

 

[40degsouth]

Hey everyone,
did my first “proper” feeding today and some plants are still deciding if they want to continue pretend flowering or go into explosive veg.
I added one litre of potato starch and mesecca flour, half of each, to see if that might convince them. It went into solution well and was kept in suspension with a bilge pump and only a little bit was left on the bottom of the drum.
Here’s a photo of some cuttle fish that l added about five years ago and as you can see has not deteriorated, dissolved or been consumed; in fact this year was the first time l saw a garlic root penetrate it and is the reason why it’s on the surface.
I posted this information in the “Alternatives to Perlite” thread but quite honestly, l don’t think anyone took me seriously.
Cheers,
40.

 

[40degsouth]

Here’s a few other additives that don’t cost anything, don’t need any water and grow well in the heavy clay soil. A horse radish and one of the thistles l alow to grow, that was a bit behind the others, already chopped.