Living organic soil from start through recycling

[ClackamasCootz]

Weyenot

When you build a compost pile it's a good idea to use materials at the base which will allow for aeration to keep things moving correctly in the working material. One plant that you can use is sunflower stalks that you cut to the lengths you need for creating a web with stalks running vertically and horizontally.

Stinging Nettles create a thick stalk like sunflowers and you can use them as well. When you harvest the leaves to create a liquid you'll be way ahead of the game if you remove them from the branches because in the 3 or 4 week soaking in water not much will happen with the branches because of the lignin they contain like any plant stalk or branch - even leaves from trees. So by removing the leaves you'll have a better liquid material to work with. But if you leave them on then you can use the wet branches as you build your pile so you're not wasting anything.

When you harvest the entire plant at the end of the season you want to separate the nettle's root mass. It contains a lot of different compounds, enzymes, etc. that are different than those found in the leaves and even stalk or branches. You can find information on stinging nettle roots and their value at Horizon Herbs and Mountain Rose Herbs which sell botanical extracts from a wide range of plants - powders, oils, et al.

Back to the lignin content - comfrey leaves and even the short stalks the grow out from the crown will contain very little lignin so that when you chop it up and cover it with water by the end of that process you will have very little material which did not decompose completely so you get more usable biomass with comfrey than stinging nettles for this process anyway.

Both plants are very good compost activators (Nitrogen) so keep that in mind as you plan scheduling when to start a new pile.

Heat is a function of biology as a result of microbes breaking down green material (Nitrogen) but has little, if anything, to do with the actual composting of the bulk of the material in a compost pile - brown material (Carbon). About the most that ramping up the temperatures accomplishes is to kill pathogens and seeds from the plant materials you've used. And the seed deal isn't 100% at all.

CC

 

[Weyenot]

It is not really what I meant but is an interesting point. Perhaps plants will hold their reserves of carbon.

Im interested in hearing more about what you mean. I was actually reading an article today that mentioned how plants use carbon to 'digest' minerals, here is the quote that I am referring to - Plants feed off of minerals in the soil. They will take up only those minerals they need for their growth and development. The plants digest these minerals by adding a carbon atom. When we consume these plants we eat whatever mineral traces they still contain (trace elements) plus the carbon atom. The minerals find their way into our system and we breathe out the carbon. Plants in turn use carbon as oxygen. This is simple carbon chemistry and it's how we form a natural cycle with nature and plants.

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/022309_sea_minerals_nutrition.html#ixzz2HLAM8yQZ
if the minerals are already broken down by the microbes in the ACT then the plants wouldnt have to use their carbon; is this what you mean?


​

 

[Weyenot]

It is not really what I meant but is an interesting point. Perhaps plants will hold their reserves of carbon.[/quote

I am pretty sure that ionic nutrients are already in a form (smaller and therefor easier to absorb for one thing I think) that are ready for immediate uptake by plants without any work on their part; if so it would make sense that plants wouldnt have to use their carbon in this case. So maybe you were simply using the ACT to supply readily available nutrients, maybe....Im interested in your reasoning

 

[Weyenot]

Weyenot

When you build a compost pile it's a good idea to use materials at the base which will allow for aeration to keep things moving correctly in the working material. One plant that you can use is sunflower stalks that you cut to the lengths you need for creating a web with stalks running vertically and horizontally.

Stinging Nettles create a thick stalk like sunflowers and you can use them as well. When you harvest the leaves to create a liquid you'll be way ahead of the game if you remove them from the branches because in the 3 or 4 week soaking in water not much will happen with the branches because of the lignin they contain like any plant stalk or branch - even leaves from trees. So by removing the leaves you'll have a better liquid material to work with. But if you leave them on then you can use the wet branches as you build your pile so you're not wasting anything.

When you harvest the entire plant at the end of the season you want to separate the nettle's root mass. It contains a lot of different compounds, enzymes, etc. that are different than those found in the leaves and even stalk or branches. You can find information on stinging nettle roots and their value at Horizon Herbs and Mountain Rose Herbs which sell botanical extracts from a wide range of plants - powders, oils, et al.

Back to the lignin content - comfrey leaves and even the short stalks the grow out from the crown will contain very little lignin so that when you chop it up and cover it with water by the end of that process you will have very little material which did not decompose completely so you get more usable biomass with comfrey than stinging nettles for this process anyway.

Both plants are very good compost activators (Nitrogen) so keep that in mind as you plan scheduling when to start a new pile.

Heat is a function of biology as a result of microbes breaking down green material (Nitrogen) but has little, if anything, to do with the actual composting of the bulk of the material in a compost pile - brown material (Carbon). About the most that ramping up the temperatures accomplishes is to kill pathogens and seeds from the plant materials you've used. And the seed deal isn't 100% at all.

CC

Thank you for this information CC!! As usual your response is to the point and easy to understand

I will definitely use some kind of plant that has thicker stalks; based on what you said I would think that since a thicker stalk has more mass it would contain more lignin. My first thought goes to a plant that it similar to jerusalem artichoke which grows in masses here, they seem like a good candidate for aeration. Maybe I will plant several rows of sunflowers too; I can enjoy their beauty, eat the seeds and use the stalks for the piles so everything can be used! Good idea with the latticework, I will definitely do that

I like your idea of removing the leaves from nettles used to make an extract. It makes more sense for me to go ahead and remove those stalks and use them in a compost pile as opposed to taking up space in the extract container when I could use that space for more leaves since the leaves break down so much easier. I will check out Horizon and MR and see what info they have on those roots, I will also check around elsewhere and see what comes up. Im pretty sure you mentioned a ratio for using the roots to make an extract earlier on but I cant place it, could you please help me out with that info?

I definitely plan on using both nettles and comfrey in composting as well as extracts; Im becoming more familiar with the benefits of using them in extracts as I use them more but I dont have any experience with using them in composting so I am excited to see what comes out! I wonder what role the lignins play in the composting process/or end product? I need to read more on that topic. What do you think?

The description of how heat is generated by the activity of microbes makes sense, all those little bodies moving around would generate some serious heat! Basically you mean this heat is a byproduct of their movement and nothing more?
I was referring more to the weather temperature. I thought that since a higher environment temp seems to facilitate more active/larger populations of microbes then their job would go along faster. Is that correct?

I thank you for taking the time to interact with me and answer questions; it is a blessing and a gift, I will do what I can to continue this generosity by sharing with anyone who will listen

 

[Weyenot]

rrog & Yosemite,

I admit here to a minor frustration, having written this information over and over again since first joining this forum, several years ago. I have to realize that, just like myself, not everyone will assimilate what I have said or may not comprehend the way I have expressed it. Not agreeing is another matter not addressed.

Many times I asked for my posts to be stickied. Now that having a sticky is a possibility, I feel a little silly going back and piecing everything I've previously written. I do have a sticky on ACT in another forum written a while back which you could look at.



To answer your question, many (all?) types. In natural growing, this is the predominant way which (according to recent studies) nutrients are uptaken by plants in the soil. Secondary or equal (?) to this 'may' be mycorrhizal fungi.

This type of cycle can take place very rapidly in the soil. Bacteria/archaea can multiply in under 20 minutes and many protozoa in 2 hours.

There will always be replacement of fresh organic matter required but yes it is very surprising the volume of nutrient available from the microbial nutrient loop. Look at how much mass a forest puts on in one growing season, compared to the amount of mass which falls onto the forest floor.

Within this very thread, I have countered the statement at least twice, that ACT is used only for building up a microbial population or for disease suppression.

True, one can reach the point where its use is redundantly ineffective because the soil has become so richly alive. I've only witnessed this once and after about 8 years of use.

As far as the microbial/enzyme inoculants go, I'll read the link. Those products can be very useful but they have been around for at least 20 years (AFAIK) and I would use the cheapest per spore or g.

MM - It seems as if you have already clarified my earlier question (regarding the process by which ionic nutrients are made available to plants by the microlife) a little more. It makes me wonder how the process of plants exchanging molecules like H for the ones they need fits into the picture; does it follow the microbial process you speak of which makes the ionic nutrients available or is this a separate act? I plan to check out your website to see what I can uncover but any infomation or nudges in a certain direction on your part is appreciated too. I am thankful for all you have shared so far; alot of it makes my head want to pop but that leads to expansion, which I like

 

[Weyenot]

CC - I also forgot to mention that I will be growing Borage, Yarrow and German Chamomile for use in extracts but I also think that they would be a good addition to compost piles or worm beds. Are there any special benefits that you know of that composting with them offers, apart from adding more diversity and plant matter to the pile?

 

[Microbeman]

MM - It seems as if you have already clarified my earlier question (regarding the process by which ionic nutrients are made available to plants by the microlife) a little more. It makes me wonder how the process of plants exchanging molecules like H for the ones they need fits into the picture; does it follow the microbial process you speak of which makes the ionic nutrients available or is this a separate act? I plan to check out your website to see what I can uncover but any infomation or nudges in a certain direction on your part is appreciated too. I am thankful for all you have shared so far; alot of it makes my head want to pop but that leads to expansion, which I like

I just wrote something addressing this. Can you accept or send PMs?

or email me through my site

 

[ClackamasCootz]

CC - I also forgot to mention that I will be growing Borage, Yarrow and German Chamomile for use in extracts but I also think that they would be a good addition to compost piles or worm beds. Are there any special benefits that you know of that composting with them offers, apart from adding more diversity and plant matter to the pile?

Weyenot

All of the plants that you mentioned as well as Comfrey & Stinging Nettles started out as medicinal plants a few thousands years back and they are still grown and harvested as medicine around the world today.

Borage & Comfrey are very close in their nutrient and compound profiles so they are interchangeable. The difference is that Borage will only give you about 15% of the biomass of Comfrey - if that. When you factor in the ability to take 3 - 4 cuttings a year with Comfrey the differences in biomass are even more striking.

Yarrow, Stinging Nettles & Comfrey are part of Steiner's Biodynamic tenets and are used specifically to activate compost piles like you'll be building. I think that this is far better than adding them to your worm bins because they can ramp up the heat in the bedding up in a day or two to temperatures high enough to kill some of your worms. Adding any raw Nitrogen source can bring problems that you don't need. Yarrow branches is the traditional sticks used in I Ching. Yarrow is almost revered in some cultures.

Worms do really well with mammalian manure, composted chicken manure and of course compost. Running your finished compost through the worm bins will only enhance the benefits by leaps and bounds. Makes for cheap worm bin food as well.

German Chamomile - you might want to read up on this one for it's value to you and your family. It isn't mission critical in a compost recipe and the health benefits to you would far exceed whatever the flowers might contribute to compost or even vermicompost. Price some organic Chamomile flowers for sh*ts & grins.

Same thing with Yarrow - a very ancient medicinal plant and there is a ton of information out there but again you'll do pretty well by just reading the page on Yarrow at Horizon Herbs. They have good information on all of the plants, seeds and roots that they offer. Plus they're one of a handful of seed companies that actually produce their own seeds. [cite]

If you have chickens, rabbits or livestock then you can feed them Borage, Comfrey and Stinging Nettles. Comfrey became an important fodder in England in the mid-1700s and remains so today. That was the reason the Bocking series were developed - a sterile strain so that production could be limited to specific areas.

If you have a vegetable garden then covering the soil with fresh-cut Comfrey leaves and covering that with your compost and let that sit for a couple of weeks is another way to work with the leaves. My 4 Comfrey plants produced over 3.5 cubic yards this past season which is a lot of friggin' Comfrey. You've probably read that kelp meal is an excellent Potassium (K) source which it is - no question about that. Comfrey has 2.8x that level. In England you can buy Comfrey-Kelp pellets for farms and gardens - too bad it's not available in the states.

You can also make Comfrey Syrup which is a way to have it available during the winter months. I'll dig up this one video in particular from either Australia or England that shows how it's done.

Ain't exactly rocket science......

HTH

CC

 

[rrog]

But if you don't have critters or a compost pile could you add these items (yellowed, not fresh) to the worm bin and get a benefit?

I recall you use alfalfa for tea, then throw the alfalfa in the worm bin?

 

[ClackamasCootz]

But if you don't have critters or a compost pile could you add these items (yellowed, not fresh) to the worm bin and get a benefit?

I recall you use alfalfa for tea, then throw the alfalfa in the worm bin?

Right! It's the fresh material that can be a real problem. Especially Comfrey, Alfalfa and Borage. What makes these a great compost activator will cause the same deal in your worm bin.

With Comfrey you can lay the leaves flat on the surface and if you don't cover it with your food stock (compost, manure, et al) then it will breakdown in 2 or 3 days to the point where it won't be a problem.

Comfrey is unique on how quickly it decomposes - using the fresh leaves as a green mulch was the primary method discussed in the 'big book' on Comfrey written by the horticulturist in England who developed the very same cultivar that we plant over 60 years ago in Essex on Bocking Road. The root pieces we order are direct cuttings from his work.

So much for genetic drift I guess......

 

[rrog]

Very good! Watch out for the raw greens.

Bocking 14! Will be planting some of that in a raised bin later this year.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

rrog

You don't need to - this plant will grow anywhere. The roots go down deeper than fruit trees - over 15' into the sub-soil. That's where the plant accumulates elements that end up in the root zone and important to us in the leaves.

'Nutrient Accumulators' - kelp, alfalfa, comfrey, stinging nettles, borage, etc. - about in that order aside from the differences in compounds each plant creates.

 

[rrog]

good thing you mention this. I was going to install hardware cloth under the raised planters to keep burrowing critters from sneaking under. I also have a tall electric deer fence planned.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Herbivores will be attracted to your Comfrey - cows, deer, rabbits, etc. Big time!

 

[rrog]

Hence the fence. 8' tall, electrified. Standard equipment at the berry farms up here

 

[YosemiteSam]

Kelp

Kelp

What happens when you add more than 1/2 cup per cubic ft...or when you add too much anyways? Is the limiting factor K or does something else go on?

 

[ClackamasCootz]

YS

I've used 1 cup per c.f. in the past without any visible problems. I went with 1/2 cup because I saw about the same benefit.

I've got Dr. Senn's book and I'll check because I believe that is where I got the first rates from.

Be back....

 

[Heliopolis]

CC

How do you go about harvesting your comfrey? Do you just remove leaf material throughout the growing season and then give it the chop at the end?

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Heliopolis

You take it down to the crown 3 to 4 times a season depending on where you live. You want to take your final chop about 6 weeks before your first frost. This will still give you about 2' of leaves. Let that stand and when the weather turns bad enough it will drop around the crown, it will 'compost' and provide a good 'nute charge' for the spring. This is not a hot weather plant at all so it will be up and running very early in the spring, again, depending on your local weather patterns.

Here's how far you can take it before chopping and you'll get this amount at least 3x per season. 4 or 5 is possible if snow and freezing weather aren't part of the local weather.

 

[Durdy]

Just got a little comfrey start, and some seeds! Trying to figure out where in the yard I'm ok with it taking over.

I'm thinking the front of the house would be best, there's a strip towards the street where these could make a great natural "fence"

The soil is pretty hard packed though, It would definitely need some working over with the pick axe to make planting a possibility.