Living organic soil from start through recycling

[rrog]

The Phosphate Equation - Nutri-Tech Solutions

Very cool article. Simple enough. Interesting comment about humates:

Cell sensitization involves an increase in the permeability of the cell membrane of treated plants to increase nutrient uptake by up to 30%. In theory, this means that fertilizer efficiency can be increased by 30% with the combination of soluble humates.

How would soluble humates do this? Other than how humus is already doing this.

 

[rrog]

Because (or if) making ACT multiplies enormous populations of bacteria and protozoa and because when protozoa eat bacteria there are enormous amounts of ionic form nutrients provided, ACT can be used as an ongoing regular nutrient provision.

If the plant, through exudates, etc creates a microbial profile that it wants, what happens when the neighborhood is flooded with all this microbial activity? I've often thought of ACT as great when you start a new soil bed, or to add if there was a problem, but otherwise I've sort of fancied the microbial balance that the plant engineers.

I'm just musing.

 

[Weyenot]

Man, you just can't get this kinda discussion anywhere. Not that I've seen. Plant enzymes and secondaries are really an exciting aspect of soils.

I agree with you on that rrog, the input/info here is high quality and keeps me searching afterwards for more to further explain the multiple pandora's boxes that are opened quite often here.
I enjoy the intense buzzing in my brain actually

enzymes ARE pretty interesting, to put it reallllly simply, they are 'keys' that allow processes to happen or that is at least how I understand thus far. So if we supply more keys to the plant that in turn gives it a break from making its own and it can use its energy elsewhere. CC or anyone else with more knowledge on this please feel free to correct that or add to it

I think its much more worthwhile to use the plant extracts, teas, etc to stimulate the natural processes of the soil and the plant for the long run instead of going for the quick fix of conventional methods that "boom and bust"; might be tempting in the short term but its so much more fun to stick around and see what develops of time, I never want to forget this!!

 

[Weyenot]

There is an argument to that, although what you state is a common assumption. Because (or if) making ACT multiplies enormous populations of bacteria and protozoa and because when protozoa eat bacteria there are enormous amounts of ionic form nutrients provided, ACT can be used as an ongoing regular nutrient provision.

We did exactly that for our corn crop last summer, using nothing but ACT.[/quote

Hmmmm, that is an interesting point MM! If I understand correctly, the ACT is producing these ionic nutrients without any byproducts that might disrupt the soil system so this in turn gives the soil a "rest" so to say, as in it can hold on to its nutrient base for a bit longer. Is that what you mean?

 

[Weyenot]

Phosphate Rock: A Viable Option For Organic Farmers? - Organic Agriculture Centre of Canada (OACC)

Phosphorus Fertilizers for Organic Farming Systems - Colorado State University

As always it's about the source of the material down to the specific mine and country of origin.

"Cadmium" is the issue

CC

Thank you for the good reads CC! Im still digesting them and will be for a while but I can say that the fact that it is VERY important to keep the soil life in mind at all times, otherwise the whole system could be gummed up by shortsighted application of super/triple p or something like that. Plus the micros seem to do such a better job than we can, it is THEIR job after all; it is a pleasure to be around watch the true "magic" unfold, now the practice must continue so I dont bungle it with my human ways!

I have a couple bags of Calphos I got a while back when I was still in the mindset of "pumping" up my soil to force the best out of my plants.....sigh, Im learning to change! I suppose since I have the product Ill throw some in during reamending until its used up. With the avenue of plant extracts opened up I dont see a point in getting any more in the future; yarrow, comfrey, dandelion......im VERY excited!!! Thank you for your recommendation earlier on about Horizon by the way; I ordered six plants each of the true comfrey and bocking 14 and planted them over a month ago so I should be able to have a good supply soon to play with now I need to move some of the nettles to a more favorable spot, or at least some of them that is, those buggers are really established despite how it does seem that they would be happier somewhere else. Thank you so much for all of the inspiration you have given me, it is priceless!! And in my mind that is the best kind of gift, something beyond those silly pieces of paper

 

[Microbeman]

If the plant, through exudates, etc creates a microbial profile that it wants, what happens when the neighborhood is flooded with all this microbial activity? I've often thought of ACT as great when you start a new soil bed, or to add if there was a problem, but otherwise I've sort of fancied the microbial balance that the plant engineers.

I'm just musing.

What if either the microbial population or matter to support them are not there or not mature enough? If they are there and these microbes are not needed they become future food.

 

[bajangreen]

What if either the microbial population or matter to support them are not there or not mature enough? If they are there and these microbes are not needed they become future food.

Following this line of thinking, if i made too much ACT this week can i store it and reuse it in the next weeks batch? Would the dead "micro-life" result in a better final population of micros in my ACT? more on the cannibal end? This is the reason we brew for 36-48 hours right? to use ACT when it is to the stage when there are more "cannibals" present?

I always bubble my FPE's and enzymes before use is this a help or hindrance? is there any specific aspect of growing where bubbling is a hindrance?

 

[think_fast]

I'm also curious why the 24-36 or 48 hours is the recommendation. Does a tea that bubbles for 3, or 4 days lose its effectiveness?

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Weyenot

Do you plan on building compost piles at the end of next summer?

CC

 

[MileHighGuy]

Following this line of thinking, if i made too much ACT this week can i store it and reuse it in the next weeks batch? Would the dead "micro-life" result in a better final population of micros in my ACT? more on the cannibal end? This is the reason we brew for 36-48 hours right? to use ACT when it is to the stage when there are more "cannibals" present?

I always bubble my FPE's and enzymes before use is this a help or hindrance? is there any specific aspect of growing where bubbling is a hindrance?

When the goal is Aerobic Microbes... which it usually is, you have to have air. If you were to let your tea sit.... it doesn't just stay stagnant and ready to go for the next cycle... it will turn into a gnarly smelly, anaerobic juice. Brew fresh tea!

I'm also curious why the 24-36 or 48 hours is the recommendation. Does a tea that bubbles for 3, or 4 days lose its effectiveness?

The Recommendation is based on MM use of microscopes to find the peak formation of the life that would most benefit us in our gardens. Any longer and the tea becomes dominated with one or more type of bacteria and is no longer balanced.

From his website: " If you have a good quality compost or vermicompost, protozoa will already be present, often in a resting cyst. If you have an efficient aerated brewer you can pretty much count on having a high flagellate (protozoa) population combined with bacteria/archaea and fungal hyphae (not mycorrhizal) at 36 to 44 hours brew time (65 to 72 degrees F). If you have a microscope you can examine the CT periodically to be sure that the microbial population is optimum."

 

[Microbeman]

Following this line of thinking, if i made too much ACT this week can i store it and reuse it in the next weeks batch? Would the dead "micro-life" result in a better final population of micros in my ACT? more on the cannibal end? This is the reason we brew for 36-48 hours right? to use ACT when it is to the stage when there are more "cannibals" present?

I always bubble my FPE's and enzymes before use is this a help or hindrance? is there any specific aspect of growing where bubbling is a hindrance?

No. Dead microbes in anaerobic water is far different than microbes which encyst in a soil environment.

They are not cannabilistic. Protozoa consume bacteria. This is akin to lions eating lambs or cows grazing grass.

 

[Microbeman]

I'm also curious why the 24-36 or 48 hours is the recommendation. Does a tea that bubbles for 3, or 4 days lose its effectiveness?

I have addressed this in great detail in the tea threads or you may visit my webpage (microbe organics dot com) to observe the videos of microbes at various times. Briefly, after 48 hours a certain type of microorganisms begins to dominate and eventually takes over. This is usually the ciliate.

BTW it is much more than 'bubbling'.

 

[Microbeman]

There is an argument to that, although what you state is a common assumption. Because (or if) making ACT multiplies enormous populations of bacteria and protozoa and because when protozoa eat bacteria there are enormous amounts of ionic form nutrients provided, ACT can be used as an ongoing regular nutrient provision.

We did exactly that for our corn crop last summer, using nothing but ACT.[/quote

Hmmmm, that is an interesting point MM! If I understand correctly, the ACT is producing these ionic nutrients without any byproducts that might disrupt the soil system so this in turn gives the soil a "rest" so to say, as in it can hold on to its nutrient base for a bit longer. Is that what you mean?

It is not really what I meant but is an interesting point. Perhaps plants will hold their reserves of carbon.

 

[E.C. Organics]

When the goal is Aerobic Microbes... which it usually is, you have to have air. If you were to let your tea sit.... it doesn't just stay stagnant and ready to go for the next cycle... it will turn into a gnarly smelly, anaerobic juice. Brew fresh tea!

I remember reading in this thread that using air stones etc. are not absolutely necessary and that you can just stir it a couple of time throughout the 24-48 hour period and still have a very viable tea. Do I remember this wrong? Just checking because this is what I have been doing lately as the air pumps/stones were just annoying to clean and another costly burden in my opinion.

 

[MileHighGuy]

I remember reading in this thread that using air stones etc. are not absolutely necessary and that you can just stir it a couple of time throughout the 24-48 hour period and still have a very viable tea. Do I remember this wrong? Just checking because this is what I have been doing lately as the air pumps/stones were just annoying to clean and another costly burden in my opinion.

This will not be an AACT.

What are your ingredients? What type of tea are you making....

I'm no expert. But I Play one on IcMag sometimes.

 

[Neo 420]

I remember reading in this thread that using air stones etc. are not absolutely necessary and that you can just stir it a couple of time throughout the 24-48 hour period and still have a very viable tea. Do I remember this wrong? Just checking because this is what I have been doing lately as the air pumps/stones were just annoying to clean and another costly burden in my opinion.

I think you are confusing AACT with FPE's or plant soaks. If you are trying to establish microbes, you will need lots of air or you will create anaerobic microbes which you may not want to give to your plants.

If you are trying to extract secondary compounds or "nutes" from a plant source then the "stir a couple of times per day" action comes into play.
You need to understand the differences or you could do some harm....

 

[E.C. Organics]

1 cup EWC
1/2 cup of compost
1 tsp Alfalfa
1 tsp neem meal
1 tsp fish bone meal
1 tsp liquid karma

to

5 gallons of water

I just let it sit for 24-36 hours and use it. I often leave the fish bone meal out. I used to bubble like crazy but like I said just feel it is much more of an inconvenience than a benefit especially when you are already going above and beyond nature by applying the tea and using gascanastans soil mix.

 

[E.C. Organics]

I think you are confusing AACT with FPE's or plant soaks. If you are trying to establish microbes, you will need lots of air or you will create anaerobic microbes which you may not want to give to your plants.

If you are trying to extract secondary compounds or "nutes" from a plant source then the "stir a couple of times per day" action comes into play.
You need to understand the differences or you could do some harm....

You know I may have actually done that....Sometimes reading these gigantic threads things can just blend together.

 

[think_fast]

I have addressed this in great detail in the tea threads or you may visit my webpage (microbe organics dot com) to observe the videos of microbes at various times. Briefly, after 48 hours a certain type of microorganisms begins to dominate and eventually takes over. This is usually the ciliate.

BTW it is much more than 'bubbling'.

MM,

Thanks for the web link. I dedicate this day's reading to it. The language is straight forward enough for even I to understand it, and I am the furthest thing from a microbiologist, amateur or otherwise (but it sure makes me feel smart!).

Awesome find!

 

[YosemiteSam]

Can you point out which specific product you mean and how this is illustrated?

There are just sooo many companies stating this type of thing now that it's hard to keep up.

First of all I have nothing but total respect for you. You are one of a handful of people who post something and could make me question my own thinking. So I am not saying you are wrong at all.

Intuitively I come down with what rrog said. The plant exudes sugars that dictate the microbal population and who am I to interfere with millions of years of evolution.

Admittedly, intuitively, I have been in love with several women who turned out to be lying hoes to...so my intuition is highly questionable.

Now I agree you have to have the microbal population to begin with. No question teas should be used for that. But once you have established that population is it better to make it as healthy as possible and let it dictate its own numbers or keep introducing more of it?

I honestly don't have a clue.

I was not talking about a specific Tainio product. Just pointing out the fact that he does use enzymes along with a little sugar rather than introduce more microbes. I don't see the point in buying a product when you can simply create it yourself.

Here is an interview where he talks about it. http://bionutrient.org/sites/all/files/docs/Nutrition_Rules/GSait_Plant_Health-Energy_Management.pdf

And again...that does not mean he is right. I would love to hear your take. edit...what kind of ions get sequestered in bacteria that become available when protazoa eat them? I honestly was not aware of that at all.

edit dos...are you saying no external sources of N would need to be applied once this is up and running? If that is true and N is fixed through bacteria I would guess you are talking the best tasting weed possible.