Living organic soil from start through recycling

[rrog]

No-Till... It's Dirt Cheap

 

[OrganicLearner]

Nice room gascanastan what kind of a/c do you run in there? I know this isn't a soil question but just wonderin..

 

[MileHighGuy]

If you're talking about this sort of thing, I have seen things that have convinced me.

Click here and scroll down... I think this is the culprit.

And..... Rudolph was mentioned in both... too funny, I'm just learning about all this stuff

http://progressearth.com/perspectives/biodynamic-agriculture/

 

[Gascanastan]

Nice room gascanastan what kind of a/c do you run in there? I know this isn't a soil question but just wonderin..

Pacific Northwest....none....even in summer.

 

[QuentinQuark]

In the USA the term most often used is 'meal' - around the rest of the world the term is 'cake' - I have no idea why that is.

LOL

But that's a US website you linked, isn't it? kisorganics

 

[OrganicLearner]

Whaaa? Is that a sealed or exhausted room? Outside temps must be pretty cold I'm guessing..?

 

[QuentinQuark]

Thanks for the tip.

I have been watching kijiji but the worm sellers on there are pretty flaky, never email you back etc.

I send a message to the wormcomposting.ca people, asked them what the worms are fed and how fresh the castings are, if they're sprayed/sterilized etc. Will post here when I hear back.

Haven't heard back from these guys. Which probably means I'm not going to be hearing back from them...

There was this notice on their website. Doesn't sound promising. I will probably end up with the Wiggle Worm for this batch of soil. $10 for 15lbs. I am thinking of getting my own bin started, feeding them compost from a bokashi bin I have yet to build lol.

 

[QuentinQuark]

Yup, that's the stuff my local hydro shop carries, they just rape you for the smaller quantities, and I need seriously small quantities.

It's all good, I'm starting to piece things together.

Meeker's Magic
Shrimp Compost (80% compost, 20% peat)
Seaweed Compost (80% compost, 20% peat)
Kelp Triple-Mix (I got an inquiry in to these folks to get a better idea of the composition - triple mix of what exactly??)
Wiggle Worm EWCs
Some peat (I'll be able to do the calculations once I get the ratios on the triple-mix)
Small amount of coco coir
Small amount of charcoal

3-part lime mix from original post

Milorganite and alfalfa for N amendment
Fish Bone Meal for P amendment

green sand, glacial rock dust, gypsum, DE

All locally available, all reasonable priced.

Miss anything?

Just sent the seaweed/shrimp compost makers an email to confirm that it was sphagnum peat that was in there, that 20%.

Also, heard back from them (same company) about that triple-mix plus kelp:

Me: "Hello again ... Just wondering if I could trouble you for the ratios of sheep/cow manure, forest material, and aeration material. Also what is the aeration material? I'm assembling an organic soil mix ... "

Her: "Good afternoon,

Regrettably, once again the exact percentages are considered proprietary and therefore we can not disclose this information. I did pose the question to our Growing Media Product Manager and his response is as follows:

"Regrettably that info is private, but I can recommend that ...
purchase the Premier Nature Mix Organic Vegetable Garden & Herbs Soil that is OMRI listed, and already has a compost/humus/peat mix close to what he's looking for. Plus, it is MycoActive Mycorrhizae growth enhanced, and is pre-blended with an organic turkey litter based fertilizer that will continue to nutrify the plants for up to 3 months. He could add Schultz Perlite to increase aeration if needed."

I hope this helps. If you should have any further questions or concerns regarding this or any of our products, please feel free to contact me."

Now I should say this was part of a larger ongoing conversation, and I found them quite courteous and helpful if and when possible. Can't expect them to give away proprietary information, and anyways I have all the help I could ask for right here in this thread

 

[QuentinQuark]

Click here and scroll down... I think this is the culprit.

And..... Rudolph was mentioned in both... too funny, I'm just learning about all this stuff

http://progressearth.com/perspectives/biodynamic-agriculture/

Indeed. It seems like everytime I "tug" on something, be it compost, biodynamics, bio-resonance, childhood education, anything at all, if I dig a little, there's some link to Steiner.

 

[QuentinQuark]

Wild Grass, Elk Dung and Cow Pie were all right in the same area. I was excited about the variety of Aspen Leaves to pine leaves.

I barely took any and was careful to sample several areas... if all goes well this mix will be in use for a very long time.

I figure I'll add about 5 gallons of this to my big ol pile and all will be well.

I also added a tiny bit to my compost tea tonight.

4 gallons water
1/3 Cup Molasses
1 cup Compost and EWC mixed
.5 cup Forest Duff Stuff
2 Teaspoons Fish Emulsion

Now in about 48 hours I'll be using this brew on my soil

How goes that brew MHG?

Where's the best place to start learning about ACTs?

 

[Gascanastan]

Where's the best place to start learning about ACTs?

Here...period. www.microbeorganics.com

,,,,not to forget about CTGuy...... www.kisorganics

 

[QuentinQuark]

I've read this post multiple times over multiple days, and I still don't have a totally clear picture of what's being described. YS would you kill me if I asked you to elaborate? Sorry, I am a serious noob.

Not to be a dick here (well ok, maybe a little one). But think about what cation exchange sites are...they are negative charges on the surface of either peat or coco. Cations do not know whether it is peat or coco...they just feel this electromagnetic charge and go to it.

Ok that I can follow.

In actual fact for the same volume peat has 1.5 x the negative charge that coco does. Peat will actually hold more cations (including Ca, Mg and K) by 50% than coco.

Didn't know that, but ok.

That means peat is a little more forgiving to the oversupply of nutes that bottle growers dump on it. So they do not run into the "CalMag" problem quite as quickly as coco growers.

By preventing the CalMag from being able to be absorbed? I'm not clear on how this effect comes about. Are those positively charged, and so they hold on tight (god I feel like a doorknob I hope you can understand what I'm asking) to those negatively charges sites, the CEC sites? Does this have something to do withe the "t" in cation looking like a "+" symbol i.e. positive? Boy that one had some dust on it, whew.

The actual fact of the matter is any cation exchange site is going to prefer Ca or Mg because they have double or triple (respectively) the charge that K or H has.

So K and H also have positive charges, but not as strong as the CalMag. Correct? And what's H?

Does not matter if it is a coco site or a peat site.

Totally get that.

What actually happens is that every single bottled nute I have seen has way to much fucking K in it. And then you add PK boostters for a double dose of stupid. All of that K blocks the Mg.

Now this is where I lose you. Why does K block Mg? What does it mean to block? The Mg has a stonger charge, so regardless of whether there was K kicking around or not, the Mg is always going to win the competition for the sites, no? That would prevent the plant from absorbing it (if I understand correctly), but it's got nothing to do with the K - does it?

Here is where it gets really fun. Some expert tells that grower he has a Mg deficiency (correct)...and then tells him just add CalMag (dumb as fuck...or more properly a bad case of root cause analysis). The problem is too much K from the bottle...not too little Mg.

Lost me, can't grasp this because of the above.

Coco can be amended exactly like peat...but if it is not compost you are using then you have to be careful with how much amendment you use. Because it wil not hold as much on cec sites you are more likely to have excess...which raises the EC of the mix eventually leading to burnt roots.

Hence your "peat is more forgiving" up top.

Much appreciation for whatever light you're willing to shine on this.

 

[schwagg]

TO ready for the HPS.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

From Acres USA Magazine - Soil CeC Explained: Understanding, Measuring & Using Cation Exchange Capacity for Nutritious Crops

The exchange capacity of your soil is a measure of its ability to hold and release various elements and compounds. In agriculture we are mostly concerned with the soil’s ability to hold and release plant nutrients, obviously, and the concept of exchange capacity deals with the soil’s ability to hold and release positively charged nutrients. A particle that has a positive (+) charge is called a cation, pronounced cat-eye-on. If it has a negative charge (-) it is called an anion, pronounced an-eye-on. (Both words are accented on the first syllable.) The word “ion” simply means a charged particle; a positive charge is attracted to a negative charge, and vice versa.

There are two types of cations, acidic or acid-forming cations, and basic, or alkaline-forming cations. The hydrogen cation H+ and the aluminum cation Al+++ are acid-forming. Neither are plant nutrients. A soil with high levels of H+ or Al+++ is an acid soil, with a low pH.

The positively charged nutrients that we are mainly concerned with here are calcium, magnesium, potassium and sodium. These are all alkaline cations, also called basic cations, or bases. Both types of cations may be adsorbed onto either a clay particle or soil organic matter (SOM). All of the nutrients in the soil need to be held there somehow, or they will just wash away when you water the crops or get a good rainstorm. Clay particles almost always have a negative (-) charge, so they attract and hold positively (+) charged nutrients and non-nutrients. Soil organic matter (SOM) has both positive and negative charges, so it can hold onto both cations and anions

 

[Gascanastan]

I've read this post multiple times over multiple days, and I still don't have a totally clear picture of what's being described. YS would you kill me if I asked you to elaborate? Sorry, I am a serious noob.



Ok that I can follow.



Didn't know that, but ok.



By preventing the CalMag from being able to be absorbed? I'm not clear on how this effect comes about. Are those positively charged, and so they hold on tight (god I feel like a doorknob I hope you can understand what I'm asking) to those negatively charges sites, the CEC sites? Does this have something to do withe the "t" in cation looking like a "+" symbol i.e. positive? Boy that one had some dust on it, whew.



So K and H also have positive charges, but not as strong as the CalMag. Correct? And what's H?



Totally get that.



Now this is where I lose you. Why does K block Mg? What does it mean to block? The Mg has a stonger charge, so regardless of whether there was K kicking around or not, the Mg is always going to win the competition for the sites, no? That would prevent the plant from absorbing it (if I understand correctly), but it's got nothing to do with the K - does it?



Lost me, can't grasp this because of the above.



Hence your "peat is more forgiving" up top.

Much appreciation for whatever light you're willing to shine on this.

OMG...seriously....please read more....most of what you are asking has already been described multiple times in this thread and multiple times in this forum. Where in the hell are our organic mods man?????????????????????????????

Dude...are you in dire straights or what?

You got some plants taking a shit or what?

I understand you're a noob but come on man..this shit is simple.

Assemble the components and let nature do the work.

fuck around fuck around

 

[QuentinQuark]

Here...period. www.microbeorganics.com

,,,,not to forget about CTGuy...... www.kisorganics

LOVING that microbeorganics site, thank you so much. Vibrations going on like crazy for me reading that. Love this quote from him:"All life is in a symbiotic nutrient cycle even down to the microorganisms contained in our gut that assist us to digest certain foods. Life, consumption, excrement, death, decomposition, life. You are what you eat and the same applies to plants." When he says "All life" he's not kidding, the system encompasses everything living thing on the planet, all part of one massive living system.

 

[Gascanastan]

TO ready for the HPS.

View Image

What up^^^ .....thank you Mr schwagg.

 

[QuentinQuark]

I need to go to bed but I can't stop reading that site. I'm proud to be from the same area as him.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

CONCLUSION

To quickly summarize the basics of CEC, cation exchange, in the soil:

1. Clay and organic matter have negative charges that can hold and release positively charged nutrients. (The cations are adsorbed onto the surface of the clay or humus.) That static charge keeps the nutrients from being washed away and holds them so they are available to plant roots and soil microorganisms.

2. The roots and microorganisms get these nutrients by exchanging free hydrogen ions. The free hydrogen H+ fills the (-) site and allows the cation nutrient to be absorbed by the root or microorganism.

Absorb vs Adsorb

 

[Gardens Keeper]

Quentin it is basic chemistry for a good coco/peat cec explanation check out gratefulheads coco guide in the coco forum or just read some of the links posted by CC somewhere between pages 1-25 in this thread.

A lot of people tune into this thread and do not read the first 50 pages where just about every myth is debunked and the basic organic chemistry/growing method is explained and then some....Read it come back and if you still got questions shoot some pm's. I would say post page 100 most posts are either regurgitated info or only add good info, but not absolutely necessary. CC and Co were very thorough pages 1-75.