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Living organic soil from start through recycling CONTINUED...

Mikell

Dipshit Know-Nothing
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I often have wondered what you would be like without the condescending, insulting attitude you take with anyone who does different.

Check the thread title again. This isn't a closed discussion, nor is it common for a thread to stick to the topic at hand.

On that note, for clarity, exotic refered to any imported ingredient.

I've made frequent mention that I don't work with a large amount of soil or plants. I assumed this was a clear caveat to anything I have to contribute. To make it clearer for the back row, I've never done no-till.

Almost get the impression you're thinking of quicklime. I've never noted burn myself, but then I mix well in advance of need. Not entirely sure how pictures would prove anything?

I think moses is smart enough to sift information on his own. No need for kid gloves.

To return to pictures, that's another's game. I don't snap them at work or home. I can think of many others that are the same, this isn't unique. I use IG but anyone can see it's more "thoughts from the shithouse" than anything.

There's a certain vanity/ego in the act of posting pictures, approval seeking and bragadacio aren't personal traits I nurture. Although some just love to share, others think it proves a point (one can still burn leaf tips in no-till organic?).

I'll end this here, as with last time. We aren't even talking lime anymore. Our interactions invariably fall to bickering and I don't see the point. Doesn't always stop me, but then I've always fed the bears.

Cheerio
 

Microbeman

The Logical Gardener
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I'd just like to inject that I buy my oyster shell at the livestock supply store. where I get almost everything I use in the garden. It is provided there as a feed supplement for poultry and it is cheap.

It is not flour but because of the consistency there is a mix of powder and larger bits. It therefore provides rapid minerals as well as decomposes slowly and this suits my no-till paradigm just fine.
 

Mikell

Dipshit Know-Nothing
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Ah chicken grit. I have a bag kicking around somewhere.

Have you noted a significant liming effect or long term pH stablization? What rate of use?

I think I used around a handful per pile. Right accurate of me. And truth be told, forgot I even added it.
 

moses wellfleet

Well-known member
Moderator
Veteran
Moses smells another celebrity death match!!

Srsly I was reading about container size in another thread and it got me thinking 15 gallons is way huge, my veg time is about 8 weeks. I am wondering if they haven't filled out the 15 properly and are not making use of the full volume!
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
I often have wondered what you would be like without the condescending, insulting attitude you take with anyone who does different.

Ask one of my friends, I have plenty of them, in fact many of them are members here.

Check the thread title again. This isn't a closed discussion, nor is it common for a thread to stick to the topic at hand.

It is a continuation of a thread where people interactively plied the techniques extolled and shared the results.

Your finding excuses to be a troll

On that note, for clarity, exotic refered to any imported ingredient.

thanks for sharing

I've made frequent mention that I don't work with a large amount of soil or plants. I assumed this was a clear caveat to anything I have to contribute. To make it clearer for the back row, I've never done no-till.

thank you for the clarification

Almost get the impression you're thinking of quicklime. I've never noted burn myself, but then I mix well in advance of need. Not entirely sure how pictures would prove anything?

The indoor no til container paradigm is different, thus the issues caused by apples to oranges comparisons

I think moses is smart enough to sift information on his own. No need for kid gloves.

He came in for help and guidance to help over come the learning curve, why make it any harder? What is the benefit?
To return to pictures, that's another's game. I don't snap them at work or home. I can think of many others that are the same, this isn't unique. I use IG but anyone can see it's more "thoughts from the shithouse" than anything.

or you don't have a tremendous amount of pictorial evidence which doesn't invalidate your opinion but it does change the weight of it in regards to people who have a level of mastery using the same technique does it not?

There's a certain vanity/ego in the act of posting pictures, approval seeking and bragadacio aren't personal traits I nurture. Although some just love to share, others think it proves a point (one can still burn leaf tips in no-till organic?).

Or they are complimentary to the people who shared the methodology and genes with the person taking the picture, or perhaps the person wants to set a baseline for performance.

I'll end this here, as with last time. We aren't even talking lime anymore. Our interactions invariably fall to bickering and I don't see the point. Doesn't always stop me, but then I've always fed the bears.

Cheerio

Its about your non relevant contributions and the effort you go trying to rationalize them

Meanwhile you can't prove what you say works in your real life.

I get it.
 

Microbeman

The Logical Gardener
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Ah chicken grit. I have a bag kicking around somewhere.

Have you noted a significant liming effect or long term pH stablization? What rate of use?

I think I used around a handful per pile. Right accurate of me. And truth be told, forgot I even added it.

It has, for me, completely replaced dolomite. I use it at 1 to 2 cups per wheelbarrow but use some additional rock/clay powders sourced cheaply.
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
Moses smells another celebrity death match!!

Srsly I was reading about container size in another thread and it got me thinking 15 gallons is way huge, my veg time is about 8 weeks. I am wondering if they haven't filled out the 15 properly and are not making use of the full volume!


When you are growing living soil in it's various incarnations the more soil the better.
 

Microbeman

The Logical Gardener
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Moses smells another celebrity death match!!

Srsly I was reading about container size in another thread and it got me thinking 15 gallons is way huge, my veg time is about 8 weeks. I am wondering if they haven't filled out the 15 properly and are not making use of the full volume!

Moses; My take; The root growth of cannabis is variable from plunging deeply to feeding primarily at the surface. I have a post somewhere discussing this more specifically, however the soil depth and volume you use for container no-till has more to do with the life of the soil than the roots filling every nook.

In natural growing, in unmolested living soil, it is my hypothesis that one benefits over time from the hierarchical arrangement of soil microorganisms and that this is why soil gets better with time.

You may read more details in my article on living soil on my webpage.

Paradoxically it is also why many growers give up too soon, failing to give the soil long enough to come to functional life. This is the reason why, often, more amendments, like ACT, botanical teas, fish fertilizers, etc. may be required in the first season.

This is fundamentally different from the mixes designed to feed a plant through a season. Some refer to these as living soils and perhaps to an extent this is correct but they are not what I originally meant when discussing living soil.
 

xmobotx

ecks moe baw teeks
ICMag Donor
Veteran
sometimes psychological projection just drips from certain posts in this thread & it seems to be associated w/ negativity & a disdain for certain approaches taken by living soil practitioners. not sure how much that adversarial approach should be considered except maybe as some form of counterpoint to over-buying in the direction of some of the more "exotic" amendments. Since living soil/ROLS can be executed solely w/ local materials {& that is largely what is advocated by the core group who developed this thread} the argument is something of a strawman

I choose neem & oyster flour ~though i don;t necessarily follow the program religiously & my own approach vascillates between so-called ROLS & the no-till paradigm w/ a strong side of micro-amending {which kind of economically makes my "exotic" amendments go further/be utilized more efficiently ~negating to some degree the aforementioned counterpoint}

I do see the argument going the same way ad nauseum & i wouldn't say i agree w/ what's been surmised by the perpetrator as that "way"
 

moses wellfleet

Well-known member
Moderator
Veteran
Beer cup to 15 gal is quite the leap. I would definitely switch up and go back to your old routine of up potting as you go. Makes for a significantly better root ball and will avoid any potential over-watering issues that are likely when planting a beer cup into 15 gallons. What do you usually do, beer cup>1gal>3 or 5gal?>15?

To raise K levels you can either apply it via foliar or add some additional K source to your soil. I wouldn't add anything until you know what is already in there, though. I prefer to foliar K because its easier to manage that way. This, of course, is only if your soil is actually light on K. Reason I said that is because you only mention kelp, which is fairly light on K as it is and that looks like your only K source. How much kelp meal do you add to your base mix?

It would be worth testing your soil pH just so you can rule that out as a contributing factor to some of the issues you describe. Do you have a good pH meter on hand? There's a quick way to test just to get a ballpark idea where the soil pH falls. Dump a scoop of soil into some distilled water, let it sit for a few hours and then pH test the water as MM has described. Crude method but it will give you an idea.

Another similarly crude method is to water enough for run off and then pH test that. Both will give you a general idea of where you're at but pH only tells part of the story because certain nutrient levels play a role in pH which is often overlooked, IMO. Have you tested any of your soil before? Check with some local university extension labs, there might be a spot near by you can get a test for 15-20 bucks. You on the east coast?

The hard crust is not good but without a picture I don't want to draw too much from that description. Are you just adding EWC straight to the top of the container or are you raking it in slightly? If the top layer is staying consistently moist as it should the crust shouldn't develop but that might be related to soil compaction. Again, hard to say without a photo or knowing more about what is exactly in your soil. Does it seem like it takes a while to water the containers? Is the top layer always very dry and the water just beads off and runs down the side at first? Is there any cover layer besides EWC on top of the soil?
Yes I usually go party cup > 1/2 gallon > 4 gallon > 15 gallon. I definitely think overwatering was an issue.

I will try get soil tested and do the PH test you describe.

The hard crust on the surface from the EWC was a temporary issue and is sorted now, I have hydroclay on the surface to keep moisture from evaporating.

A magnesium source is a problem now. I was contacting oyster farms to try get shells until I read that oyster flour comes from fossilized deposits, so I don't have access to it. If I can't reamend with dolomite lime then can I provide magnesium via Epsom salts?

It is difficult to provide quantities because I am metric based but I am adding a 1/3 cup kelp to 7 gallons of soil. It is a very fine powder of ecklonia maxima.
 

Mikell

Dipshit Know-Nothing
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I wouldn't drop the lime if your base is primarily peat. There's a crowd advocating no lime elsewhere, to mixed result (from what I've seen). I could understand with a bit of trial and error, but it seems unnecessary.

Limestone (calcitic, agricultural) is pretty easy to come by world wide. No?
 

mrS0ul

Meatball in Residence
I wouldn't drop the lime if your base is primarily peat.
Limestone is pretty easy to come by world wide. No?


I concur.

Limestone is harvested sustainabley within' 20 minutes of my place and I live in the middle of nowhere. I can literally pull up along side the road get out and sweep up all the dolomite flour I care to have from where it settles around the small family owned mine and processing concern.

80 minutes away from me through the mountains there is a county that is renown for its lime and the results it produces in vegetables and fruit. Tomatoes in particular. You can taste the difference. Lime deposits there are primarily on private property and mineral rights in this area are prized due to lime deposits and the superior quality of the mountain spring water.

These folks have a genetic predisposition for conservation and being just plain frugal.
I fit right in. :biggrin: Lumping all lime in the "bad" basket seems illogical IMO. As with all things it is a case by case basis. I think the point is the it performs poorly in ROLS. I've just not crossed that bridge. Yet.

Viva Personal Choice. No?
For the record I recycle religiously and I am moving away from lime and toward living soil mineralization . I will also continue to keep lime in my tool box. The prized kind from that county I mentioned.

Disclaimer: Crux of the Biscuit.
This is an effort to answer a specific question and may / may not be off topic to the original threads thrust.
 
Last edited:

rasputin

The Mad Monk
Veteran
Yes I usually go party cup > 1/2 gallon > 4 gallon > 15 gallon. I definitely think overwatering was an issue.

I will try get soil tested and do the PH test you describe.

The hard crust on the surface from the EWC was a temporary issue and is sorted now, I have hydroclay on the surface to keep moisture from evaporating.

A magnesium source is a problem now. I was contacting oyster farms to try get shells until I read that oyster flour comes from fossilized deposits, so I don't have access to it. If I can't reamend with dolomite lime then can I provide magnesium via Epsom salts?

It is difficult to provide quantities because I am metric based but I am adding a 1/3 cup kelp to 7 gallons of soil. It is a very fine powder of ecklonia maxima.

What exactly is in your soil mix & at what amounts per cu ft? IIRC there isn't any other K source besides the kelp, right? The kelp is very low, approx. 80mL/cu ft. I would go up to at least 245mL/cu ft. Do you mix up your soil and plant right into it?

A Mg source is the least of your problems. Plenty of options there and I'd wager when you list what else you add to your soil there will be 2-3 other sources of it already included. And just fyi, oyster shell is a Ca source.

Quick word on dolomite because there seems to be a lot of misinformation and confusion about it lately... you can use it but generally it is not necessary to use for our purposes unless your soil is actually Mg deficient. I don't recommend adding it to your soil unless you know it needs or can handle the added Mg. Too often people think you need to always add lime and can't grow without it. The reality is far from that.

Dolomite isn't bad per se but it is risky to use in the way that is often described here - "2 tbsp per gallon" or almost 1 cup per cu ft, particularly if you're in the 'sufficient' camp of soil building and reusing your dirt. You're flying blind adding back significant amounts of Mg to soil that might not need it.

To me Mg is similar to K in that I would rather be a little light in the soil than too high. It's a lot easier to foliar some magnesium sulfate than deal with excess Mg in the soil.

Re: up potting... I would go back to your old approach. Sounds like the beer cup > 15 gallon is getting over-watered and stalling out. Better to up pot anyway to develop a proper root ball that will take off once it hits that 15 gal pot.
 

Dog Star

Active member
Veteran
Use best fishmeal LT-94,Antartic Krill Meal,crunched Kelp and dry beer yiest,

have strong soil but usually in beggining of new ciclus i have issues with magnesium..

can somebody from you pros give me advice for organic amendment that will cover Mg
problems??

Than i think this mix that i use will be perfect..


Kind regards

DS
 

Avinash.miles

Caregiver Extraordinaire
Moderator
ICMag Donor
Veteran
i remember reading that the slime that worms leave casting in is high in Calcium carbonate.... seems like lots of worms will help with that calcium....
i use oystershell meal and sand rich in calcite....
isn't DE a source of calcium also?
 

moses wellfleet

Well-known member
Moderator
Veteran
What exactly is in your soil mix & at what amounts per cu ft? IIRC there isn't any other K source besides the kelp, right? The kelp is very low, approx. 80mL/cu ft. I would go up to at least 245mL/cu ft. Do you mix up your soil and plant right into it?

A Mg source is the least of your problems. Plenty of options there and I'd wager when you list what else you add to your soil there will be 2-3 other sources of it already included. And just fyi, oyster shell is a Ca source.

Quick word on dolomite because there seems to be a lot of misinformation and confusion about it lately... you can use it but generally it is not necessary to use for our purposes unless your soil is actually Mg deficient. I don't recommend adding it to your soil unless you know it needs or can handle the added Mg. Too often people think you need to always add lime and can't grow without it. The reality is far from that.

Dolomite isn't bad per se but it is risky to use in the way that is often described here - "2 tbsp per gallon" or almost 1 cup per cu ft, particularly if you're in the 'sufficient' camp of soil building and reusing your dirt. You're flying blind adding back significant amounts of Mg to soil that might not need it.

To me Mg is similar to K in that I would rather be a little light in the soil than too high. It's a lot easier to foliar some magnesium sulfate than deal with excess Mg in the soil.

Re: up potting... I would go back to your old approach. Sounds like the beer cup > 15 gallon is getting over-watered and stalling out. Better to up pot anyway to develop a proper root ball that will take off once it hits that 15 gal pot.
My soil mix is as follows:
3 parts perlite
3 parts Canadian peat moss
1 part earthworm castings

To 1 cubic foot which I think is approximately 10 gallons I amend the following:

1/2 cup dolomite lime
1/4 cup calcitic lime/calcium carbonate
1/3 cup gypsum
1/3 cup volcanic rock dust
1/3 cup bonemeal
1/3 cup kelp

I recently raise the dolomite from a 1/3 cup because of signs of magnesium deficiency. I remember you said K deficiency has a similar appearance but I don't think it is that. I let the soil sit for 3 weeks before planting into it, but I am working towards letting it sit for 6 weeks. Btw we are talking new soil here. I guess there may not be time for the magnesium to become available after only 3 weeks?

I am loosely basing this on Dank Frank's mix that appears in the Stank bros sub forum. He does list a full cup kelp and a full cup bonemeal. But his is a water only mix and I am trying to push yield by feeding with liquid seabird guano which has worked great for me before. But I see what you saying that K input is low. Maybe I should use the kelp and bonemeal at full strength (1 cup) and reduce the seabird guano which is low in K?

I am also going back to using two plants per 15 gallon tote, it has worked before and provides a better canopy than using one plant from a 4 gallon container. When using 2 plants they come from 1/2 gallon containers, in this's way I am also utilizing the surface area better.

Thanx for helping me like this:thank you::)
 
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