Living organic soil from start through recycling CONTINUED...

[Weird]

fwiw powdered oyster shell is dredged up from a fossil deposit at the bottom of san francisco bay.

2013 SMARA MINE INSPECTION Morris Tug & Barge Marine Oyster Shell Mining

Oyster shell deposits are renewed by oyster life cycles, lime deposits are not renewed in any cycle we will be present for.

Curious do you use lime, oyster shell, both or something else?

 

[rasputin]

Thanx for the reply Rasputin, the plants were in party cups!

What can I add to raise K levels?

I do not know the soil PH.

I water until just before run off would start!

The soil is developing a hard crust on top of the containers from top dressing with EWC!

Beer cup to 15 gal is quite the leap. I would definitely switch up and go back to your old routine of up potting as you go. Makes for a significantly better root ball and will avoid any potential over-watering issues that are likely when planting a beer cup into 15 gallons. What do you usually do, beer cup>1gal>3 or 5gal?>15?

To raise K levels you can either apply it via foliar or add some additional K source to your soil. I wouldn't add anything until you know what is already in there, though. I prefer to foliar K because its easier to manage that way. This, of course, is only if your soil is actually light on K. Reason I said that is because you only mention kelp, which is fairly light on K as it is and that looks like your only K source. How much kelp meal do you add to your base mix?

It would be worth testing your soil pH just so you can rule that out as a contributing factor to some of the issues you describe. Do you have a good pH meter on hand? There's a quick way to test just to get a ballpark idea where the soil pH falls. Dump a scoop of soil into some distilled water, let it sit for a few hours and then pH test the water as MM has described. Crude method but it will give you an idea.

Another similarly crude method is to water enough for run off and then pH test that. Both will give you a general idea of where you're at but pH only tells part of the story because certain nutrient levels play a role in pH which is often overlooked, IMO. Have you tested any of your soil before? Check with some local university extension labs, there might be a spot near by you can get a test for 15-20 bucks. You on the east coast?

The hard crust is not good but without a picture I don't want to draw too much from that description. Are you just adding EWC straight to the top of the container or are you raking it in slightly? If the top layer is staying consistently moist as it should the crust shouldn't develop but that might be related to soil compaction. Again, hard to say without a photo or knowing more about what is exactly in your soil. Does it seem like it takes a while to water the containers? Is the top layer always very dry and the water just beads off and runs down the side at first? Is there any cover layer besides EWC on top of the soil?

 

[moses wellfleet]

I see comfrey is a good source of K, a friend of mine uses it outdoors with great success, worst smell ever. Maybe for indoors I can use dried powdered leaves?

 

[mrS0ul]

Sustainability or Die.

Sustainability or Die.

Oyster shell deposits are renewed by oyster life cycles, lime deposits are not renewed in any cycle we will be present for.

Curious do you use lime, oyster shell, both or something else?

Oyster Shell Flour For the Win!

 

[mrS0ul]

Thanx for the reply Rasputin, the plants were in party cups!

What can I add to raise K levels?

I do not know the soil PH.

I water until just before run off would start!

The soil is developing a hard crust on top of the containers from top dressing with EWC!

Mine do the same. Can get [exaggerated] like cement on top. My vendor swears no sludge but then his Guaranteed Analysis is from 2009.

I have to admit it looks gorgeous outta the bag though.

 

[Weird]

i can get straight shells to several shellfish including oysters locally, enough for my personal needs

 

[moses wellfleet]

Mine do the same. Can get [exaggerated] like cement on top. My vendor swears no sludge but then his Guaranteed Analysis is from 2009.

I have to admit it looks gorgeous outta the bag though.

I think it is just the nature of EWC. Plants seem to love when it is applied in that way. I have a male in a party cup for six months now. No signs of pot bound, no yellowing. Only thing it gets is a thick top dressing of EWC occasionally, and it just keeps pushing out new roots. New growth is that bright green almost blue color!

 

[Mikell]

Nice. Though it seems more like a coastal advantage, I couldn't imagine the ecological catastrophe that would result if everyone did that. Shells are essential to the reproductive cycle.

On the more commercial aspect of oyster shell mining (dredging of the sea floor).

Continued overharvesting had done more than reduce harvestable populations. It had reduced broodstock fecundity and the genetic qualities of the various Chesapeake subpopulations as well. Fur- ther, it had diminished natural shell replacement due to excessive removal of shell-producing oysters and their shells, causing reef destruction. Additionally, removal of shells for landfill, road building, con- struction, chemical production, soil conditioning and poultry grit hastened that destruction. The syner- gistic cycle of population reduction and habitat destruction accelerated. Today many formerly-produc- tive reefs are mere remnants (or totally obliterated—even eliminated) and Chesapeake public (aided or unaided) market oyster production is far less than one percent of its maximum.

http://www.vims.edu/research/units/labgroups/molluscan_ecology/_docs/HargisHaven.PDF

One can argue pro's and con's of almost any amendment.

Oyster shell is expensive up here (or any distance from an area it's actively mines I imagine), $1-3 a pound without a wholesale account. Not to mention, there are maybe half a dozen places in BC one could walk out the door with a bag (shipped from Cali). Good luck if you're rural and live two weeks from everything.

I can get bulk shells all day long, but getting anything consistent enough to rival Pearl or even ag lime in terms of CCE efficiency would be futile.

For a fraction of the cost and ready availability, I'll pick ag lime all day long.

 

[Weird]

well that is the point isn't it, sourcing local, sustainable products

Glad your married to lime, can you tell me how well it works in LOS aks no till containers?

 

[VortexPower420]

Most sustainable CA source ... Eggshells. Second crab shells... Boo ya...Moving on.

I'm thinking shitty ewc. Remember humus is the key to making this work. More microbe less problems.

 

[Weird]

i use crab shell and oyster

 

[moses wellfleet]

I'm thinking shitty ewc. Remember humus is the key to making this work. More microbe less problems.

Yes agreed but in my case I don't think it's that. I was still getting good results with recycled soil using the same ewc, only the no till didn't perform!

 

[mrS0ul]

Oh ok I have noticed some interveinal chlorosis, nothing too serious could that be lack of lime? Pretty sure it's not N deficiency!!

Yes lack of lime and specifically a mag def.
Dark / Green / Dark Green / Black Green veins w/ fading / yellowing between.

Does it look anything like this?


Center leaf. Stage 1 Mag def

Soil tests pic


I added a dash of lime and some epsom salt foliars and it returned to glory.
You see the results in the leaf above the center. The bottom leaf had faded due to the 1/2 ratio coots didn't cut it. We up potted to a heavily re run of LC's and did not / forgot to add lime. The N def went away and as vigor set in bam. Mag deficit.

First thing I did before this was test pH in case anyone was wondering.
It had moved from the lower optimal to the higher optimal range so
Mag def.

I gotta get a better camera.

 

[moses wellfleet]

Yes it looks exactly like that!

 

[heady blunts]

i used oyster shell to lime my current soil when it was built. i wanted to use aragonite sand but my supplier was out and i couldn't wait.

oolithic aragonite sand is the metabolic waste product of cyanobacteria in the bahamas. they produce it faster than it's being harvested. could be more sustainable than other liming agents, but i stopped my research when i couldn't source it.

Goldenberg Myers Oshenite SPI presentation

 

[corky1968]

i used oyster shell to lime my current soil when it was built. i wanted to use aragonite sand but my supplier was out and i couldn't wait.

oolithic aragonite sand is the metabolic waste product of cyanobacteria in the bahamas. they produce it faster than it's being harvested. could be more sustainable than other liming agents, but i stopped my research when i couldn't source it.

Goldenberg Myers Oshenite SPI presentation

I used a not so well known source of liquid aragonite for my plants before.
They sell it for saltwater reef tanks to boost the calcium levels. This stuff
is amazing. I'll be buying more this Summer.

It's called Purple Up.

Check my post on that.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=3574547#post3574547


BTW: Places that supply this stuff also sell special reef sand made of pure aragonite.

Like this:

http://www.petsmart.com/fish/gravel-sand/caribsea-aragonite-aquarium-reef-sand-zid36-16742/cat-36-catid-300072

 

[Mikell]

well that is the point isn't it, sourcing local, sustainable products

Glad your married to lime, can you tell me how well it works in LOS aks no till containers?

That is the point, agreed. Living far from active oystershell mining, it isn't sustainable for many to use. And as mentioned, crushed shells re: homemade are a crapshoot at best. I see no reason to invest in machinery to achieve a consistent liming reaction.


Is this the Organic forum or the No-Till Only? And what is oyster shell flour but lime?


I have used the adjusted Solomon lime mix 2-1-1 lime-gypsum-dolo with ag lime and oyster (fresh mix and recycled) and failed to notice any observable difference in growth or soil quality. For transparency, I doubt the two or three mixes amounted to much than a yard or two.


One could almost argue plants grow just fine without exotic ingredients.


But then I don't put much faith in indvidual subjective anecdotal experience. I've had this argument a few times and it follows the same course without fail, falling to opinion rather than any quantifiable point. As with so many things..

 

[VortexPower420]

Well what really is the difference in sources?

It all Ca carbonate except gypsum and dolo has a mixture with magnesium carbonate. It is all a Ca source.

I can see how egg shells should take a bit to powder but In a recycled soil they could suit a porpus.

They do make a great addition to the worm bin by passing the need for any mined minerals.

 

[milkyjoe]

Throw wollastonite in there...34% Ca, 51.5% SiO2. I am using Vansil W 10

 

[Weird]

That is the point, agreed. Living far from active oystershell mining, it isn't sustainable for many to use. And as mentioned, crushed shells re: homemade are a crapshoot at best. I see no reason to invest in machinery to achieve a consistent liming reaction.

OK, seems like sound logic I appreciate your own take for your own relative purpose

Is this the Organic forum or the No-Till Only? And what is oyster shell flour but lime?

Actually it is a LOS (no til ROLS) thread in the Organic forum.

Further more my comments about lime and oyster shell where directed to a user who asked for help because they want to grow LOS no til.

My comments and my experience using both products indoor no til are very relevant because he is trying to grow in a very similar scenario.

This is why I neg reped you as a troll and DEMAND you share your indoor container no til experience to remain relevant to the topic at hand. INDOOR NO TILL CONTAINER GARDENING.

I assume your ADD like turbo posting and a love to counter anything I say was the catalyst for the lack of intellectual continuity.

There are many threads and posts on the change from lime to other variants.

Remember I came in to help someone trying to grow this way and you came in to offer a irrelevant opinion that has no benefit but offer confusion.

Put up or shut up.

I have used the adjusted Solomon lime mix 2-1-1 lime-gypsum-dolo with ag lime and oyster (fresh mix and recycled) and failed to notice any observable difference in growth or soil quality. For transparency, I doubt the two or three mixes amounted to much than a yard or two.

Lime burns, oyster shell not so much.

I am into 8 + recycles indoor, no soil tests needed, no resets, getting a gpw of really nice pot. I never used lime. I also catalog my results and share them here.

One could almost argue plants grow just fine without exotic ingredients.

oyster shells are not exotic since I live on an Island. Like with my EWC, compost and oyster shells I buy my product instead of DIY.

I make compost and castings but that is something I am still perfecting plying those results outdoors.

I use about 4 cups of amendments per 18 plants

kelp
bone/fish bone meal
fish/blood meal
oyster shell
crab shell

I use 1/2 cup frass and alfalfa and up to a cup of neem meal if I feel it is required.

that gets me 4 lbs of primo top shelf

I still have at least half full bags of 50lb kelp 25lb crab 40lb oyster shell from when I first built my soil

I haven't bought peat, compost since still working on old stock I had around since 12.

Growing no til is ridiculously cheap, so cheap that I can afford to support providers of sustainable agriculture and still pay pennies to grow pot (minus electric of course)

But then I don't put much faith in indvidual subjective anecdotal experience.

probably because your own is underwhelming

where's the examples of your perceived successes or failures?

I've had this argument a few times and it follows the same course without fail, falling to opinion rather than any quantifiable point. As with so many things..

my only quantifiable point is if you can't pull off results as I have posted using no til rols then I question your qualifications and based on your lack of showing and real effort and result using the tech I question your integrity and reasoning for commenting in this thread.

I suggest not overwhelming moseswellfleet with conjecture and share with him relative no til organic successes you have had relevant to his request.