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Light Rails VS. Stationary Lights
- Thread starter southwind
- Start date
Jesusbuiltmygro
Member
I can see how people might get the impression that a light mover can't impact yield much espeically since a badly setup one can easy have only a minor effect.
To get the most yield you have to maximize the light footprint of your reflector with run the mover just short enough to keep more plants under only slightly less average watts per square foot (keeping in mind that the real measurement is lumens and that the light being lower helps keep the average light levels UP even though the light is further away). The average lumens per foot probably aren't even as high as a stationary light, but you affect a larger area and you do so in a way more ideal to the plants natural design.
It works because most growers are not using the entire light footprint that their reflector products and this also explains why some growers would find stationary lights better. You have to think of your light out put as a sqare or rectange of wattage per foot. Think of a 1k as a 4x4 area and you have 62 watts per sqare foot, but the light from the center of the bulb and reflector is stronger than the light form the edges, so the light output isn't even. The light movers abilty to increase the light footprint while keeping the average watt per sqare foot is the key but too large of a move will result in diminished returns. The light can't move too far beyond the center of the area that you want to cover of the side lighting diminishes so far that your average wattage per sq foot drops drastically. However the coverage is still ultimately shifted outside the grow area in a horizontal application. Verticals grows def seem more ideal and since vertical lights entire ploy it to increase light coverage and efficiency it only makes sense that a light mover which more of less has the same goal would work well with a vertical setup. It's hardly an amazing idea.
The movement also keeps surface temps on the leaves down which is great and allows for more intense light but I beleive the more important aspect is how a moving light design fits the entire organic model of a plants leaf and branching patterns. Unless agressively trimmed suck as for SOG the leaves always shade each other with static sources and those leaves will yellow and die off representing lost resources from your plant.
Your growing style is also going to determine how much benefit youll get from a light mover. For tree grows a horizontal light mover probably isn't the best idea because it will be covering too large an area and something like vertical lighting is probably better depending on your space. Denser growers are bound to benefit more from light movers and perhaps grows that are not overly pruned because pruning relys on the idea that the leaves are not getting enough light and therefore are worthless. While some bottom leaves may still fall into this catagory far more leaves will get light perhaps making bushy grows that are still relatively dense one of the best targets for light movers... though I'm just guestimating there. I'm sure a well positioned light mover is going to help almost any type of grow and even a small yield increase will probably pay for the mover with the first yield increase. Grows with lots of spacing are going to be trickier for light mover management, but as long as you look at the light coverage patterns you should be able to adjust things until you get it ideal. Def most people will want them for short runs just to spread out the grow area a little and cool the tops of the plants while getting better light penetration.
The only real problem with light movers are the cost and noise. I want to try out this Agramover on ebay. How many of you guys using this? Any good ? It looks like a better design than light rail, but not a polished of a product or price tag.
To get the most yield you have to maximize the light footprint of your reflector with run the mover just short enough to keep more plants under only slightly less average watts per square foot (keeping in mind that the real measurement is lumens and that the light being lower helps keep the average light levels UP even though the light is further away). The average lumens per foot probably aren't even as high as a stationary light, but you affect a larger area and you do so in a way more ideal to the plants natural design.
It works because most growers are not using the entire light footprint that their reflector products and this also explains why some growers would find stationary lights better. You have to think of your light out put as a sqare or rectange of wattage per foot. Think of a 1k as a 4x4 area and you have 62 watts per sqare foot, but the light from the center of the bulb and reflector is stronger than the light form the edges, so the light output isn't even. The light movers abilty to increase the light footprint while keeping the average watt per sqare foot is the key but too large of a move will result in diminished returns. The light can't move too far beyond the center of the area that you want to cover of the side lighting diminishes so far that your average wattage per sq foot drops drastically. However the coverage is still ultimately shifted outside the grow area in a horizontal application. Verticals grows def seem more ideal and since vertical lights entire ploy it to increase light coverage and efficiency it only makes sense that a light mover which more of less has the same goal would work well with a vertical setup. It's hardly an amazing idea.
The movement also keeps surface temps on the leaves down which is great and allows for more intense light but I beleive the more important aspect is how a moving light design fits the entire organic model of a plants leaf and branching patterns. Unless agressively trimmed suck as for SOG the leaves always shade each other with static sources and those leaves will yellow and die off representing lost resources from your plant.
Your growing style is also going to determine how much benefit youll get from a light mover. For tree grows a horizontal light mover probably isn't the best idea because it will be covering too large an area and something like vertical lighting is probably better depending on your space. Denser growers are bound to benefit more from light movers and perhaps grows that are not overly pruned because pruning relys on the idea that the leaves are not getting enough light and therefore are worthless. While some bottom leaves may still fall into this catagory far more leaves will get light perhaps making bushy grows that are still relatively dense one of the best targets for light movers... though I'm just guestimating there. I'm sure a well positioned light mover is going to help almost any type of grow and even a small yield increase will probably pay for the mover with the first yield increase. Grows with lots of spacing are going to be trickier for light mover management, but as long as you look at the light coverage patterns you should be able to adjust things until you get it ideal. Def most people will want them for short runs just to spread out the grow area a little and cool the tops of the plants while getting better light penetration.
The only real problem with light movers are the cost and noise. I want to try out this Agramover on ebay. How many of you guys using this? Any good ? It looks like a better design than light rail, but not a polished of a product or price tag.
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SEAttown206
Member
Here's a link to a saltwater tank online forum that I found in a google search for the agramover.............It has a good discussion of both the agramover and the lightrail; Both seem to get good marks............ Also, on page 3 of the thread, someone has a link to their grow blog, which has an animated gif of his mover over his reef tank, as well as a link to a youtube video of it...................
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=977154&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
Trichome Toker: Any luck with getting your hands on a digi cam yet? I'd be much obliged to see pic's of your air-cooled vertical set-up; Hope to be setting up a similar set-up real soon
Thanks Everyone, Good Thread! SEA
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=977154&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
Trichome Toker: Any luck with getting your hands on a digi cam yet? I'd be much obliged to see pic's of your air-cooled vertical set-up; Hope to be setting up a similar set-up real soon
Thanks Everyone, Good Thread! SEA
Agramover
Agramover
I'll vouch for the Agramover..Works like a champ!!...It doesn't have a varible delay at the ends..It has a fixed delay..You can turn it on or use it without it..Varible delay would be better!!...This way you could fine tune it for different lenths of travel..On a positive note it doesn't make any noise and doesn't draw much current..The Agramover also has two ac outlets mounted to the mover..For powering fans or whatever...You can get an attachment to mount fans to the mover...Fans move with the light...All in all I'm very happy with mine...The built in delay is perfect for the distance my light travels....mitsu
Agramover
I'll vouch for the Agramover..Works like a champ!!...It doesn't have a varible delay at the ends..It has a fixed delay..You can turn it on or use it without it..Varible delay would be better!!...This way you could fine tune it for different lenths of travel..On a positive note it doesn't make any noise and doesn't draw much current..The Agramover also has two ac outlets mounted to the mover..For powering fans or whatever...You can get an attachment to mount fans to the mover...Fans move with the light...All in all I'm very happy with mine...The built in delay is perfect for the distance my light travels....mitsu
G
Guest
I just found this thread again and saw that not only have I been told I`m ignorant due to the input pertaining to light rail movement and all the situations about their yields increasing and that I have no clue........I`m here to say that after running the lights on movers way back when "NEVER" gave me more yield as far as "angular penetration of the lights", only popcorn buds and nothing else...Is that what`s called "more yield"?....It`s simply science.......not me.....Light penetration into the canopy as far as you can drop em down without bleachin or burnin em up is the variable for major bud weight,yield,and trichome production..Watts per square foot and environment controlled....period.........All queries welcome.......PEACE.........DHF........ 
I think if you were just using 1 or two lights the light rail is probably more effective than if you have a lot of lights. When running lots of lights in a room the plants are already recieving light from multiple angles. Plus those rails cost as much as another light.
I also run a sealed room with aircooled lighting and don't like my ducting moving back and forth.
I used to run light rail 3.5 and I didn't really like them. they both broke. one had a motor that went bad and the other doesn't switch directions anymore.
I also run a sealed room with aircooled lighting and don't like my ducting moving back and forth.
I used to run light rail 3.5 and I didn't really like them. they both broke. one had a motor that went bad and the other doesn't switch directions anymore.
Trichome Toker
Member
Either way, ten 1000W bulbs on light rails will get your more herb than ten 1000W bulbs not on light rails.
Either you use rails, and you know, or you don't, and you don't.
Either you use rails, and you know, or you don't, and you don't.
peace, invest in a ligh mover, maxmizes on the bleed off penetration of the edges, once i got it i was light dayam thats it? but a blessing in decise! i even modified mines because the scrog area was shorter than the rail and i wanted the trolley to pivot at either end if the scrog screen.
bk...
bk...
Trichome Toker said:
for the price of all those rails you could buy another 5 lights.
I have used rails multiple times and for me I would rather not have things moving around. This is a personal preference. Plus I did not see these amazing yield increases you guys do. A good friend has used 10 rails for years and has switched them out for stationary lights.
pico said:
I dont think thats the point, I think they point is "hey for this room im comfortable running 2000watts, now let me get more out of the 2000 watts I have by using a light mover" NOT "I run 2000 watts but am comfortable running 3000" In that case buy another light, if you want max efficiency from what light you do have a mover seems to be the option.
Trichome Toker
Member
pico said:
Yes, but rails pay for themselves with all the electricity they save.
You could buy 15 lights, or 25, or 100.
Eventually, if you can afford it, putting those light on movers is a good investment, because you will get more herb for the same power bill.
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I would love to see the idiot who sets up a warehouse with 100 rails.
I don't doubt that the total efficiency might bet better. It just isn't practical, safe, or cost effective to setup a ton of rails. It is not going to be as much of a benefit when you already have light coming from all angles.
A light rail for two lights with the robosticks and all that jazz is around $300 bucks. so $150 a light. Gropro dual 600w ballasts are around $300 and then $50 each for regular wing reflectors. So $400 for two lights.
So lets say you had $2800 to spend. you could buy 8 lights and 4 rails or you could buy 14 lights. Same price.
Personally I am going to go with the 14 stationary lights and not play puppetmaster making my lights dance around the ceiling. Your light rails may pay for themselved in efficiency but my 14 lights will outyield you every day of the week and in the end the cost of electricity is negligible considering the extra yield.
That being said, I have a 3x6 tray that i use for vegging small plants. I have a rail handy and will be using that with a dual 400w hps/mh light. This is a good use for a light rail. A setup with any more than a handfull of lights and the light rail just doesn't seem practical for me.
I don't doubt that the total efficiency might bet better. It just isn't practical, safe, or cost effective to setup a ton of rails. It is not going to be as much of a benefit when you already have light coming from all angles.
A light rail for two lights with the robosticks and all that jazz is around $300 bucks. so $150 a light. Gropro dual 600w ballasts are around $300 and then $50 each for regular wing reflectors. So $400 for two lights.
So lets say you had $2800 to spend. you could buy 8 lights and 4 rails or you could buy 14 lights. Same price.
Personally I am going to go with the 14 stationary lights and not play puppetmaster making my lights dance around the ceiling. Your light rails may pay for themselved in efficiency but my 14 lights will outyield you every day of the week and in the end the cost of electricity is negligible considering the extra yield.
That being said, I have a 3x6 tray that i use for vegging small plants. I have a rail handy and will be using that with a dual 400w hps/mh light. This is a good use for a light rail. A setup with any more than a handfull of lights and the light rail just doesn't seem practical for me.
Trichome Toker
Member
It costs money, but it pays for itself in one crop.
You have the Omega Garden, I mean come on man...
You have the Omega Garden, I mean come on man...
yeah but the other lights would more than pay for themselves.
Yes I do have an omega garden. Same sort of deal, more efficient. It too pays for itself in one crop. It is also more efficient then stationary lights or your little light rails. Does that mean you shouldn't have a light unless you have a rat wheel spinning around it? I wish I never bought them. In fact I just sold one and hope to sell the other after I play around with it some more.
Hey I am just here letting my opinion on rails be heard. I am not trying to convert you to the church of Pico or anything.
Yes I do have an omega garden. Same sort of deal, more efficient. It too pays for itself in one crop. It is also more efficient then stationary lights or your little light rails. Does that mean you shouldn't have a light unless you have a rat wheel spinning around it? I wish I never bought them. In fact I just sold one and hope to sell the other after I play around with it some more.
Hey I am just here letting my opinion on rails be heard. I am not trying to convert you to the church of Pico or anything.
Trichome Toker
Member
The lights will pay for themselves in one crop.
The rails will pay for themselves in one crop.
The rails will continue to pay for themselves every single crop, because you will get more nugs, for the same amount of electricity.
Anything that can give you higher yield, without raising your power bill much at all, is a good thing.
I use light rails with vertical lighting.
My yield went up over 4 ounces per 1000W light, by using a light rail, and it only raised my power bill by like $5.
That is a good investment.
The rails will pay for themselves in one crop.
The rails will continue to pay for themselves every single crop, because you will get more nugs, for the same amount of electricity.
Anything that can give you higher yield, without raising your power bill much at all, is a good thing.
I use light rails with vertical lighting.
My yield went up over 4 ounces per 1000W light, by using a light rail, and it only raised my power bill by like $5.
That is a good investment.
Just to clarify. In your first post you said that light rails doubled your yield. Does this mean that you currently yield 8 ounces per 1000 watts on a light rail?
If we are talking investments, lets do some math. We don't want to go investing blindly now do we.
Same setup as above. 8 lights with rails and compared to 14 stationary lights. all 600 watts. Ok, lets assume we get 1 gram per watt with stationary lights and 1.3 grams per watt with rails. So the stationary lights will pull 8400 grams or 18.75 pounds. the light rails will pull 6240 grams or 13.9 lbs. So we are talking almost 5 lbs difference per harvest. keep in mind the setup cost was the same and the area used is similar since you are giving more space per light with the light rail. now you are using 3600 watts extra in power for lights minus 22 watts for 4 light rails. 3578 extra watts. 3578x12x30 gives you 1288 KWH per month extra. at the average of around 10 cents per KWH that is going to cost you an extra $128.80 per month in electricity. So over the course of a normal 60 day flower period you are paying $257.60 for 4.85 pounds. this happens each and every month.
Even if you were getting 50% more with the rails (1.5 grams per watt), which I guarantee you is not the case, this would only be 7200 grams or 16.07 pounds. Still around 2.7 lbs shy of the 14 stationary lights.
those lights look like a better investment to me.
If we are talking investments, lets do some math. We don't want to go investing blindly now do we.
Same setup as above. 8 lights with rails and compared to 14 stationary lights. all 600 watts. Ok, lets assume we get 1 gram per watt with stationary lights and 1.3 grams per watt with rails. So the stationary lights will pull 8400 grams or 18.75 pounds. the light rails will pull 6240 grams or 13.9 lbs. So we are talking almost 5 lbs difference per harvest. keep in mind the setup cost was the same and the area used is similar since you are giving more space per light with the light rail. now you are using 3600 watts extra in power for lights minus 22 watts for 4 light rails. 3578 extra watts. 3578x12x30 gives you 1288 KWH per month extra. at the average of around 10 cents per KWH that is going to cost you an extra $128.80 per month in electricity. So over the course of a normal 60 day flower period you are paying $257.60 for 4.85 pounds. this happens each and every month.
Even if you were getting 50% more with the rails (1.5 grams per watt), which I guarantee you is not the case, this would only be 7200 grams or 16.07 pounds. Still around 2.7 lbs shy of the 14 stationary lights.
those lights look like a better investment to me.
CaptJamesTKirk
Active member
Adjustable delay types,,, How much delay do you use? I've been set at about 3/4 of the delay adjustment. (about 120 deg. off the minium stop
From what I see, longer delay decreased exposure in the center - which is a great place to break in new plants. I thought about decreasing delay, but Rez says he gets best results using all of the delay.
my rotation now is new plants from 400W veg go down the center and most ripe plants are on both ends. I use boxes and stands to raise plants to maintain even tops - so far I have only toasted 1 bud top (Pretty crispy) and a single leaf. (barely singed) - (ok lighly burnt) The light can run a LOT closer, but the plants can grow into danger and my reflector may have some hotspots - I know it does - it was a real pain when stationary
I can see advantages going less delay and advantages with longer. If anything now, instead of ripe plants in the center, surrounded by little ones moving up, I now have a few little ones, surrounded by bigger ones. I hate it. what a waste of money.
Think I should have less delay or more?
From what I see, longer delay decreased exposure in the center - which is a great place to break in new plants. I thought about decreasing delay, but Rez says he gets best results using all of the delay.
my rotation now is new plants from 400W veg go down the center and most ripe plants are on both ends. I use boxes and stands to raise plants to maintain even tops - so far I have only toasted 1 bud top (Pretty crispy) and a single leaf. (barely singed) - (ok lighly burnt) The light can run a LOT closer, but the plants can grow into danger and my reflector may have some hotspots - I know it does - it was a real pain when stationary
I can see advantages going less delay and advantages with longer. If anything now, instead of ripe plants in the center, surrounded by little ones moving up, I now have a few little ones, surrounded by bigger ones. I hate it. what a waste of money.
Think I should have less delay or more?
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