Legit Breeders - Pollen Chuckers and White labelers - Tell us YOUR Opinion!

[GreenMtnBud]

I don't know if you would be able to find it still, but back around 2017 I bought an Oz of some kush and the bud tender handed me a bag and goes "Here's a free gram for the Oz purchase!" I was like, huh? And she said it's some new CBD strain... I just didn't care because I thought CBD was whatever at the time so I threw it aside. One day my wife said "Do we have anything to smoke?" I said "No!..... Oh wait! I forgot I have that gram of that CBD stuff that lady gave me.." she said "Well fire it up! And we can go get something better in the morning..."
So I pulled it out, it was called "Cannatonic", I don't know the breeder. But it has 0% THC, and like 14% CBD which I think was the highest at the time. We smoked it and all my pain was gone! We were giggling and watching Fast and the Furious

Thanks DoctorDoob,
I’ll look into this strain.
I’d love for all my pain to be gone
G

 

[Doctor Doob]

Man, legit breeders?! I want to just go on a rant/rampage. I'll try to control myself.

These are just my opinions. And I might misuse terms. Apologies in advance.

Who's doing actual breeding? Well, what is actual breeding vs chucking? Who is working things multiple generations nowadays? Ace is the only one I can think off off the topnof my head... and smaller hobby growers.

I'd argue most if not all are just chucking pollen. Not anything wrong with that per se...

Maybe breeding takes relatively large plant counts and specific goals in mind (IMHO). Or multiple generations of selection.

I've made alot of crosses, reg and fem. But I'm certainly not a breeder.

I think in most cases a breeder would want to breed cannabis that's true from seed, or true breeding. Low phenotypic variation. Consistency in females.

That said, it seems like most people are just doing selection and making f2s with two polyhybrid strains.

Let's go back a ways.

I think about Subcool (who, it turns out, didnt do much if any of the actual breeding, maybe he did reproductions but others did selections and gave him cuts, he really just had the one male that was the star of the show). He talked about pheno hunting so much because his gear was not very true from seed. Of course you'd talk about having to hunt a good pheno. You didnt actually breed it to be consistent. Let alone the fact he was just a hype guy. The marketing man. So was he a breeder? Not in my opinion. But I could be wrong. Then there's his unsupported ideas about feminized seeds... maybe I missed his botany degree and evidence for his beliefs.

Now let's look at someone I respect. Csi Humboldt. Is Caleb a breeder? Id say probably. Is making s1s breeding? Maybe. Do they have consistent outcomes from seed? Sometimes. Often times not. Depends on the stability of the original strain imho.
How often is Caleb running hundreds of plants and selecting a few to move forward? Maybe more often than I think. Idk.
Maybe it's not necessary to run a ton of plants to breed. Maybe things are pre selected and that saves time vs breeding from scratch. But is he running multiple gens, f3 f4 f5 etc?

I have more thoughts and questions than answers.
It just seems like the hype strain chucking nowadays isn't breeding. Seems to easy. Makes some fire? Sure. Unstable? Sometimes. But idk if that's breeding.

And what is unique? What stands out?

Landrace, IBL and heirlooms are coming back strong. Because, imho, polyhybrids often have this generic, blah, muddled high.

I hope I didn't offend anyone, I'm open to dialogue about and corrections on my claims.

I agree to a point some of what you said kindly, but I don't necessarily disagree with you on the others. I just feel like (in my opinion of course) the lines of the term "Breeder" or "Breeding" specifically is being lessened by some individuals in the community as a way to insult some people and calling them a "Pollen Chucker"! Breeding is BREEDING, regardless of the results, or other people's feelings. If I stick two dogs together and get puppies, am I not breeding? I mean, they certainly are! LOL If I breed two dogs together, honestly I feel that is breeding! At it's most basic level. That doesn't mean I know what I am doing or am necessarily working with solid pure bred lines. Anyone can breed, but at what quality? There is good breeding and bad breeding but I wouldn't call any of it "Pollen Chucking". I would consider it a project of "BREEDING", and the results are what we have BRED. I see the same thing in another industry, the tattooing community! The big argument there is wether or not an artist is a "Tattooist", "Tattooer", "Tattoo Artist", in my opinion it's all the SAME! They all tattoo! I don't care if one guy tattoos the best and the other guy can't tattoo to save his life, they both hold the same title in my eyes! The work they do is a different story! So in tattooing if you tattoo at home or you tattoo unlicensed all the licensed artists, guys in shop, and any KNOW IT ALL, calls the guy a "scratcher" because they claim the guy has never worked in a shop so that means he has to be bad at tattooing, he must suck at art, and any tattoo that guy does will heal like a scratch because he obviously doesn't know skin depth or anything about tattooing. When in reality, they most all start at home and are no better than the next guy, the only difference is their EGO!
So even if a guy is "Pollen Chucking", it is still breeding. If you don't like the results from his project it just ain't for you! Doesn't mean you have to bash him or discredit him to his lack of knowledge! Everyone has to learn somewhere and how can anyone ever learn if you just treat them less than you, talk down on them and try to make them look bad to the community so everyone thinks you are cooler.... I don't get it.
Here is the thing, I would say it is all personal experience, and what you are after. Every single breeder will have fans and they will have haters. As far as CSI: Humboldt I have never personally grown out his gear, but I have smoked it, I have seen it, I am on his social media and have seen his work and I can see that he has what he says he does! Most the pictures that pop up of most of his stuff by him that he grew or anyone else grew of his, I know from decades experience what the plants he says he has should look like, and THEY DO... But here's where people get confused I believe. Just like you said Subcool would out source his breeding. So does CSI: Humboldt. Yes he does his grows and pheno hunts but he even said himself his prized cut of the Obama Kush was pheno hunted and selected by Redbeard CSI: Portland of Tigard Farms. Which is his friend. We all have friends, so did Subcool. And it seems people think because your name is the "Hype man" like you say, that you don't do the work. Which I can't agree with. If they were like "Berner" where all they do is smoke weed and try to market anything they can get their hands on but yet NEVER have a garden... Then I would say that is a "Hype Man". But CSI: Humboldt is doing his work, and he doesn't have a lot of space so he allows others close to him he trusts run his work and they pick and choose on a collaborative effort. Which so did Subcool, with Jill and others. I like Archive Seeds and some of his work, but others have argued with me in the past the same thing! "He doesn't grow anything, he just selects it..." At the end of the day, if I want something he has to offer I don't care if his crazy uncle Billy Buck grew it, and picked it! If it's fire and it can hold it's own with the rest of the stock what is the big deal?
It becomes like an elementary playground argument because nobody will ever agree. Some think a breeder is someone that continues down the line F1, F2, F3, F4, and so on... Makes you a breeder, others will argue if you are a great breeder, why would it take that many generations....
I think the main popular breeders do as much work as they can and then their gardens end up overlapping into friends gardens, the same with some bigger breeders, their warehouse gets full and they borrow one from the homie.... That's no big deal. The big deal is companies like Barney's farm and others that seem to just buy bulk seeds from anywhere and name them cool names just to stay up with the latest craze...
People have to start looking at breeders like a band! It's not always just the lead singer! There's a whole team behind the scenes that bring the whole performance together!
If the band is good, I will purchase the album. If it only has one good song, I will wait for a friend to buy it and have them burn me a copy lol
Same can be said for seeds. If the breeder is good I will follow his work and buy as many packs as I can of whatever he comes out with. But if I only see one or two strains he has to offer that get me interested, I will probably just wait and get a clone from a friend...
I have been around the cannabis scene since the 90's and I have heard it all!
Every breeder, seedbank, company, etc has always had fans and has always had haters.... You will never know first hand unless you decide to try it out for yourself! If you take another's opinion, you may never know and miss out on something you may actually like or a strain that could help your health or your business, or your family and finances, because you listened to what other people think! And most of the time it's always this guy, told that guy, that heard from a guy, that knows a guy...

 

[Doctor Doob]

Thanks DoctorDoob,
I’ll look into this strain.
I’d love for all my pain to be gone
G

You also might want to do some research on rare Dankness and see if he has any CBD offerings.. because I remember when recreational first started happening in the States, Scott was doing some work with Charlotte's Web and some other CBD varieties to help a family with a child that suffered from seizures, and also I think he was diagnosed with cancer so he had been working on some stuff. I haven't looked into any of it lately. But you may be able to find something there, or possibly be able to contact the company and even just ask to see if you could get pointed in the right direction

 

[Ttutorial]

Same here. Take a look to find an old Jack Herer Cut, or Sannies Jack as replacement. X-Dog is also my all-time favorite for Pain and Depressions. Sadly its even harder to get the Original genetic, and not just pollen chuckers unstable Lottery, just to abuse the Hypetrain.

Du hier?
An dich Erinnere ich mich noch, lange her.
Hast wahrscheinlich auch einen Ban bekommen?

 

[Ttutorial]

That's funny the Cannatonic I was talking about looks similar to this. Almost like they could be twins

Thats the Lineague from the CBD GIRL COUT COOKIES:
Girl Scout Cookies x Quimiotipo CBD

This one has no Cannatonic in it.

I heard an Interview with Shanti, he said he did so many CBD Strains for the other companies, where they didnt knew how to do it right. Now they do he said.

CBD Critical Mass (von CBD Crew) :: Cannabis Sorten Infos

The CBD enriched Critical Mass is, as its origins would imply, a large yielding strain. It grows like a sativa but with heavy, dense indica-like flowers. Its buds can get so heavy during flowering that there is a good need to support them to avoid sn...

de.seedfinder.eu

That is CBD Critical Mass from CBD Crew it has Cannatonic in it.

I would say please stick to the CBD Crew if u search for something with CBD 1:1 or 1:2 they have different phenos.

I do like ACE a lot for the idea that EVERY SEED has 0.5 - 0.7% THC (under 1%).

I dont like that CBD CREW has so many Phenos where u can find a 1:1 to 1:3.. but i grew both.. and CBD Crew had me really impressed.

U have no other chance to take clones and run a mom i think if u search the same over and over again.

 

[Ttutorial]

Man, legit breeders?! I want to just go on a rant/rampage. I'll try to control myself.

These are just my opinions. And I might misuse terms. Apologies in advance.

Who's doing actual breeding? Well, what is actual breeding vs chucking? Who is working things multiple generations nowadays? Ace is the only one I can think off off the topnof my head... and smaller hobby growers.

I'd argue most if not all are just chucking pollen. Not anything wrong with that per se...

Maybe breeding takes relatively large plant counts and specific goals in mind (IMHO). Or multiple generations of selection.

I've made alot of crosses, reg and fem. But I'm certainly not a breeder.

I think in most cases a breeder would want to breed cannabis that's true from seed, or true breeding. Low phenotypic variation. Consistency in females.

That said, it seems like most people are just doing selection and making f2s with two polyhybrid strains.

Let's go back a ways.

I think about Subcool (who, it turns out, didnt do much if any of the actual breeding, maybe he did reproductions but others did selections and gave him cuts, he really just had the one male that was the star of the show). He talked about pheno hunting so much because his gear was not very true from seed. Of course you'd talk about having to hunt a good pheno. You didnt actually breed it to be consistent. Let alone the fact he was just a hype guy. The marketing man. So was he a breeder? Not in my opinion. But I could be wrong. Then there's his unsupported ideas about feminized seeds... maybe I missed his botany degree and evidence for his beliefs.

Now let's look at someone I respect. Csi Humboldt. Is Caleb a breeder? Id say probably. Is making s1s breeding? Maybe. Do they have consistent outcomes from seed? Sometimes. Often times not. Depends on the stability of the original strain imho.
How often is Caleb running hundreds of plants and selecting a few to move forward? Maybe more often than I think. Idk.
Maybe it's not necessary to run a ton of plants to breed. Maybe things are pre selected and that saves time vs breeding from scratch. But is he running multiple gens, f3 f4 f5 etc?

I have more thoughts and questions than answers.
It just seems like the hype strain chucking nowadays isn't breeding. Seems to easy. Makes some fire? Sure. Unstable? Sometimes. But idk if that's breeding.

And what is unique? What stands out?

Landrace, IBL and heirlooms are coming back strong. Because, imho, polyhybrids often have this generic, blah, muddled high.

I hope I didn't offend anyone, I'm open to dialogue about and corrections on my claims.

I do breeding now.
Funny.. but i did it.. i found so many herms and was so dissapointed from so many breeders, that i thought i do it my own.

I do have already an F3 that is stable as fuck and every seed is so uniform - i did a great job tbh.
Every Seed gives me strawberry/Fruity gassy terps.. they are since 1 month in a 500ml.
I just do regs.

Real breeding takes time - creating 1 strain and make it uniform and not like 1000 phenos is such a hard work, but i do love it. Creating something makes so much fun.

Today they get 2 hype strains, reverse one and then sell the fem seeds for 100-150 bucks a pack.. thats disgusting.. thats an insult even to pollen chuckers.. (i know its the same but man)..

 

[FellaAndrene]

Real breeding takes time - creating 1 strain and make it uniform and not like 1000 phenos is such a hard work, but i do love it. Creating something makes so much fun.

Yup! I underestimated the time that goes into breeding before I got into it. It takes a lot of time to seek for the best combinations and look through all the selections.

And a few of my first crosses proved out to be hermie-prone. Fire weed though, and it gave me ideas about what I should do next. I started to develop a picture of what real breeding looks like. Of course, that meant working pain-stakingly thoroughly. Just doing an F2 of a single line took me three rounds of selections.

But yeah, it is sooo rewarding when you finally get to taste the fruits of your labor - and the results are always very surprising, in a way. Even when everything clicks, and works as intended, there's always something to be learned from tasting a novel cross. I've started to feel like it's a slow-motion back-and-forth communication situation between the plants and me.

 

[FellaAndrene]

I love this quote from @Sam_Skunkman 's interview from twenty years ago:

That's the thing. If you bought tomato seeds and grew 100 plants, they'd all come out the same. But if you bought cannabis seeds on the black market and grew 100 plants, you're probably going to get a lot of variation. Amateur growers just don't have a full understanding of how to breed. I had spent years collecting cannabis seeds worldwide. We grew thousands and thousands of those, analyzed them, and selected for the target compounds we really wanted. We grew the plants in a big glasshouse and we also grew outdoors, in secret locations.

[Watson displays a photograph of five acres of high-grade pot, cultivated for seed production, from "somewhere" in Europe.]

After we extracted the seeds we wanted from this crop, we burned all five acres. My American friends were dumbfounded -- it would have been worth millions of dollars on the black market. But that's what plant breeders do -- we grow 100,000 plants, keep 100 of them, and trash all the rest. I love to kill. I'm getting rid of everything that's imperfect.

Thank you Sam for showing us the way with the Skunk #1 work you did!

 

[LG/]

I agree to a point some of what you said kindly, but I don't necessarily disagree with you on the others. I just feel like (in my opinion of course) the lines of the term "Breeder" or "Breeding" specifically is being lessened by some individuals in the community as a way to insult some people and calling them a "Pollen Chucker"! Breeding is BREEDING, regardless of the results, or other people's feelings. If I stick two dogs together and get puppies, am I not breeding? I mean, they certainly are! LOL If I breed two dogs together, honestly I feel that is breeding! At it's most basic level. That doesn't mean I know what I am doing or am necessarily working with solid pure bred lines. Anyone can breed, but at what quality? There is good breeding and bad breeding but I wouldn't call any of it "Pollen Chucking". I would consider it a project of "BREEDING", and the results are what we have BRED. I see the same thing in another industry, the tattooing community! The big argument there is wether or not an artist is a "Tattooist", "Tattooer", "Tattoo Artist", in my opinion it's all the SAME! They all tattoo! I don't care if one guy tattoos the best and the other guy can't tattoo to save his life, they both hold the same title in my eyes! The work they do is a different story! So in tattooing if you tattoo at home or you tattoo unlicensed all the licensed artists, guys in shop, and any KNOW IT ALL, calls the guy a "scratcher" because they claim the guy has never worked in a shop so that means he has to be bad at tattooing, he must suck at art, and any tattoo that guy does will heal like a scratch because he obviously doesn't know skin depth or anything about tattooing. When in reality, they most all start at home and are no better than the next guy, the only difference is their EGO!
So even if a guy is "Pollen Chucking", it is still breeding. If you don't like the results from his project it just ain't for you! Doesn't mean you have to bash him or discredit him to his lack of knowledge! Everyone has to learn somewhere and how can anyone ever learn if you just treat them less than you, talk down on them and try to make them look bad to the community so everyone thinks you are cooler.... I don't get it.
Here is the thing, I would say it is all personal experience, and what you are after. Every single breeder will have fans and they will have haters. As far as CSI: Humboldt I have never personally grown out his gear, but I have smoked it, I have seen it, I am on his social media and have seen his work and I can see that he has what he says he does! Most the pictures that pop up of most of his stuff by him that he grew or anyone else grew of his, I know from decades experience what the plants he says he has should look like, and THEY DO... But here's where people get confused I believe. Just like you said Subcool would out source his breeding. So does CSI: Humboldt. Yes he does his grows and pheno hunts but he even said himself his prized cut of the Obama Kush was pheno hunted and selected by Redbeard CSI: Portland of Tigard Farms. Which is his friend. We all have friends, so did Subcool. And it seems people think because your name is the "Hype man" like you say, that you don't do the work. Which I can't agree with. If they were like "Berner" where all they do is smoke weed and try to market anything they can get their hands on but yet NEVER have a garden... Then I would say that is a "Hype Man". But CSI: Humboldt is doing his work, and he doesn't have a lot of space so he allows others close to him he trusts run his work and they pick and choose on a collaborative effort. Which so did Subcool, with Jill and others. I like Archive Seeds and some of his work, but others have argued with me in the past the same thing! "He doesn't grow anything, he just selects it..." At the end of the day, if I want something he has to offer I don't care if his crazy uncle Billy Buck grew it, and picked it! If it's fire and it can hold it's own with the rest of the stock what is the big deal?
It becomes like an elementary playground argument because nobody will ever agree. Some think a breeder is someone that continues down the line F1, F2, F3, F4, and so on... Makes you a breeder, others will argue if you are a great breeder, why would it take that many generations....
I think the main popular breeders do as much work as they can and then their gardens end up overlapping into friends gardens, the same with some bigger breeders, their warehouse gets full and they borrow one from the homie.... That's no big deal. The big deal is companies like Barney's farm and others that seem to just buy bulk seeds from anywhere and name them cool names just to stay up with the latest craze...
People have to start looking at breeders like a band! It's not always just the lead singer! There's a whole team behind the scenes that bring the whole performance together!
If the band is good, I will purchase the album. If it only has one good song, I will wait for a friend to buy it and have them burn me a copy lol
Same can be said for seeds. If the breeder is good I will follow his work and buy as many packs as I can of whatever he comes out with. But if I only see one or two strains he has to offer that get me interested, I will probably just wait and get a clone from a friend...
I have been around the cannabis scene since the 90's and I have heard it all!
Every breeder, seedbank, company, etc has always had fans and has always had haters.... You will never know first hand unless you decide to try it out for yourself! If you take another's opinion, you may never know and miss out on something you may actually like or a strain that could help your health or your business, or your family and finances, because you listened to what other people think! And most of the time it's always this guy, told that guy, that heard from a guy, that knows a guy...

Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate it! I like hearing other perspectives, helps me think outside of my own limits.

I'll again preface this by saying it just my perspective.

Partially it seems to be an issue of semantics.
Technically yes it's all breeding. But I think the term takes on a different context in this instance.

The dog example. Yes the person that stuck two dogs together bred the dogs, but are they a breeder? Doing something is one thing. But to be a breeder their has to be some level of higher intentions, not just breeding two random dogs together... or even two selected dogs together. Doing that is a one off instance of breeding, but that does not male the person facilitating that a breeder.

I don't know anything about tattoos, I have none and don't know the culture.

But I know a thing or two about film. Not alot but I took a class in college, and really appreciate the art form.

Technically all media in that form is considered film. But I draw a distinction between movies and film.
It's not a clear and distinct line. But film assumes higher artistic intent, and a certain level of more advanced, developed culture and content. It has a different feel to it.

Nothing wrong with movies. Entertaining, fun etc. They are definitively in the media form of film, but movies are movies.

It's a matter of opinion, what qualifies as a movie vs a film. But certain works are clearly films, the ones that are clearly films and not movies are usually self evident. And some overlap where one person says film, one movie, and some could be considered mixed or hybrids...

Breeders are to films as pollen chuckers are to movies.

I respect both for what they are.

I self identify as a pollen chucker, and I'm good with that. But I don't claim to be a breeder.

I don't respect hype guys who take credit for others work, and have a huge ego. A little humility goes along way.

Im not talking down about Subcool to make myself seem cool or knowledgable. Im neither of those things. Im doing it because he was an egomaniac, and I think people have an incorrect view of his contributions to the culture. Go back and watch his videos. His attitude is something else...

Now Csi Humboldt at least was pretty humble (based on the Potcasts I listened to). Although the last one he did have a different attitude, but maybe it was just the day/his mood. I respect him and what he does. Not all of it is breeding by my definition.

Reproductions and seed increases fall under the umbrella term of breeding, but really there not breeding. They are what they are- seed increases and reproductions... far different from classic or traditional breeding.

It really feels like what most people are doing regarding making seeds nowadays can be seen as distinct from what I define as traditional breeding. I guess that's my view in summation.

Words and definitions matter. History matters. Accurate representation of history and clear articulation of ideas is important.

Clearly we disagree on terminology. But that's ok. I respect your opinion, and appreciate you for taking the time to have a dialouge.

Oh and I should mention, all this is important to me because to me cannabis is a sacred plant. I don't hold much as sacred. But I do see cannabis as special, unique and worthy of respect.