LED and BUD QUALITY

[Hammerhead]

Not trying to shill for anyone, but AKBeanBraiins has the original 90s Serious Seeds Kali Mist for sale.

They are F5 seeds.. They will be different from the original parents. Still might be something to look into.

 

[Ca++]

in regards to this phenomenon, i have observed a photosynthetic lagtime that might vary with spectra and/or intensity.

in my system, the ppk recirculating soilless hydroponic system, which is both top irrigated by pump and timer and sub-irrigated 24/7 by capillary rise, the reservoir water level is controlled by a float valve.

i have turned the top-watering apparatus off several hours before the lights came on and observed the float valve. there will be an occasional drip before the lights first come on but it takes about 1/2 hour to create a steady draw on the valve. from a drip every minute or so to a steady drip, drip, drip takes about 30 minutes.

i interpret this as the startup speed of photosynthesis. it also takes about 30 minutes for it to slow down to the occasional drip again.

Edit: Sorry, this post is far... far...far too long

That's very interesting water use information. I guess you can see this happening, as the plants wake over that same time period?
I rarely notice indoors, but outdoors, it's great to watch a site go from slumber to out-stretched again. Sometimes parts remain shadowed longer than others, so the wave of activity moves across them. Highlighting how some wake a little easier than others (I think it's the offside rule).

It would make sense, that they are taking on water, then reach full. I think half hour about right. I don't check my watch outdoors.
Whats driving this, I can't say. The stomatal response time studies of other plants, are not looking at such short intervals. I know they get started quickly, but the action takes time. While photosynthesis I'm really quite clueless about. Just that the stomata are not nearly fast enough to regulate the co2 at it's usage rate. So work is being done with K compounds that might speed this up.

I have noticed that feeding once per day, shouldn't be an hour after lights on. If you do that, then they are taking on that big charge of water, at your highest EC point of the day. Then your lower EC feed comes, and I'm guessing the salt issue will make them take on excess water. I'm not sure, but they don't seem to like it. Though it's common practice. Myself, I'm usually on multiple fertigations per day, so one before lights on is part of my desired schedule. I like 20- minutes. Long enough for salts to do their thing, but not long enough to drown them.


The topics of photosynthesis and stomata are really quite academic. Full of 'we do not understand that bit yet' So while my head is full of spurious notes, left behind from trying to find what I actually wanted, these notes have no bits of string between them. Sometimes you will here some barely coherent babble from me, as I try to join the dots between observation and science. I try not to though (it's usually when I'm pushed)

I'm a smoker. I like an easy life.

I'm gonna do it..
Photosynthesis leads to stomatal opening, I have read. Tests on stomata often involve measurements under different IR spectra, that won't wake the plant. So it's surely the first trigger in this half hour of increasing water uptake. I think it might be H ions released from the water in photosynthesis, that work in conjunction with the K ions, enabling them to move back n forth within the guard cells. That is the regulatory action of the stomata, but we don't yet know the pathway or method by which they actually move.
I can't say how stable this K&H bond is, or what it is. So I'm not sure if new stuff needs making continually, or if yesterdays is perfectly good. Though in either case, the stomata can't just be opened like a window. Nor can water move up a plant at any great rate. Half an hour seems reasonable. It makes me think of those times I forget to hand water, and find plants so hangin, I'm not sure if they will make it. They will have stomata dryer and tighter than (insert line here). Then typically, half hour later, after twitching like (insert line here) they are stood up again.



I have known people feed without runoff or tank change, but it's never been wonderful. Fine, but not wonderful. I have got a couple to move over to more typical methods, and been thanked for it.
Our feeds are not suited to that ion balanced approach. We can't just replace what was used, as our feed contains everything. On day one, our feed is right, but NPK gets nailed, and other things just need to be there. So straight away, the next NPK replenishment, is also topping up things that were not used so much. In some of these ion balancing grows, that first tank can contain some things that will never be topped up again. While bottles often contain things in abundance. Knowing there will be runoff or tank changes.
With the wide range of bottle's on the shelf, and wider range of plants to grow, it must be near impossible to get a match.
As an example, P is always too high. The plant will take it, but it tastes chemically. The shop weed taste. The big opps want the plant to take all the feed, as waste is a handling problem. So they don't change the tank much, or have much runoff. Most that flush, are really just trying to reduce feed use further. Feed and water cost money, which is why shop weed is samey. It's the excess P the plant is forced to take. With runoff measurements, we find from week 3 onward, nearly all the P goes down the drain. Feeding at like 60 (Iwould have to check my notes) it just concentrated to about 200 as the pots dry back. Then gets flushed out. If you flush out.
It's not all bad though. The lack of sudden changes can be good, while a constant increase in some cations can get them up to high levels in the roots, which can be useful. Certainly by mid bloom, you wouldn't want to do a tank change, if it was your first. All the effort getting the internal salts jacked up, wouldn't be complimented by a well balanced tank.
I feel worried for you. Really I do. Have you done it a few times before? It could so easily be disastrous.

 

[greyfader]

Edit: Sorry, this post is far... far...far too long

That's very interesting water use information. I guess you can see this happening, as the plants wake over that same time period?
I rarely notice indoors, but outdoors, it's great to watch a site go from slumber to out-stretched again. Sometimes parts remain shadowed longer than others, so the wave of activity moves across them. Highlighting how some wake a little easier than others (I think it's the offside rule).

It would make sense, that they are taking on water, then reach full. I think half hour about right. I don't check my watch outdoors.
Whats driving this, I can't say. The stomatal response time studies of other plants, are not looking at such short intervals. I know they get started quickly, but the action takes time. While photosynthesis I'm really quite clueless about. Just that the stomata are not nearly fast enough to regulate the co2 at it's usage rate. So work is being done with K compounds that might speed this up.

I have noticed that feeding once per day, shouldn't be an hour after lights on. If you do that, then they are taking on that big charge of water, at your highest EC point of the day. Then your lower EC feed comes, and I'm guessing the salt issue will make them take on excess water. I'm not sure, but they don't seem to like it. Though it's common practice. Myself, I'm usually on multiple fertigations per day, so one before lights on is part of my desired schedule. I like 20- minutes. Long enough for salts to do their thing, but not long enough to drown them.


The topics of photosynthesis and stomata are really quite academic. Full of 'we do not understand that bit yet' So while my head is full of spurious notes, left behind from trying to find what I actually wanted, these notes have no bits of string between them. Sometimes you will here some barely coherent babble from me, as I try to join the dots between observation and science. I try not to though (it's usually when I'm pushed)

I'm a smoker. I like an easy life.

I'm gonna do it..
Photosynthesis leads to stomatal opening, I have read. Tests on stomata often involve measurements under different IR spectra, that won't wake the plant. So it's surely the first trigger in this half hour of increasing water uptake. I think it might be H ions released from the water in photosynthesis, that work in conjunction with the K ions, enabling them to move back n forth within the guard cells. That is the regulatory action of the stomata, but we don't yet know the pathway or method by which they actually move.
I can't say how stable this K&H bond is, or what it is. So I'm not sure if new stuff needs making continually, or if yesterdays is perfectly good. Though in either case, the stomata can't just be opened like a window. Nor can water move up a plant at any great rate. Half an hour seems reasonable. It makes me think of those times I forget to hand water, and find plants so hangin, I'm not sure if they will make it. They will have stomata dryer and tighter than (insert line here). Then typically, half hour later, after twitching like (insert line here) they are stood up again.



I have known people feed without runoff or tank change, but it's never been wonderful. Fine, but not wonderful. I have got a couple to move over to more typical methods, and been thanked for it.
Our feeds are not suited to that ion balanced approach. We can't just replace what was used, as our feed contains everything. On day one, our feed is right, but NPK gets nailed, and other things just need to be there. So straight away, the next NPK replenishment, is also topping up things that were not used so much. In some of these ion balancing grows, that first tank can contain some things that will never be topped up again. While bottles often contain things in abundance. Knowing there will be runoff or tank changes.
With the wide range of bottle's on the shelf, and wider range of plants to grow, it must be near impossible to get a match.
As an example, P is always too high. The plant will take it, but it tastes chemically. The shop weed taste. The big opps want the plant to take all the feed, as waste is a handling problem. So they don't change the tank much, or have much runoff. Most that flush, are really just trying to reduce feed use further. Feed and water cost money, which is why shop weed is samey. It's the excess P the plant is forced to take. With runoff measurements, we find from week 3 onward, nearly all the P goes down the drain. Feeding at like 60 (Iwould have to check my notes) it just concentrated to about 200 as the pots dry back. Then gets flushed out. If you flush out.
It's not all bad though. The lack of sudden changes can be good, while a constant increase in some cations can get them up to high levels in the roots, which can be useful. Certainly by mid bloom, you wouldn't want to do a tank change, if it was your first. All the effort getting the internal salts jacked up, wouldn't be complimented by a well balanced tank.
I feel worried for you. Really I do. Have you done it a few times before? It could so easily be disastrous.

i've been growing with this system since sept 2009. i am the inventor of this system. i'm also known as delta9nxs. i use a continuous liquid feed but it is a closed-loop recirculating scheme that maintains ec and ph in an extremely stable fashion throughout the grow. there is a recirculating reservoir under each plant and the entire system is fed from an elevated tank that does not recirculate. the crop can be steered in any direction by adjusting feed strength and ph while mixing each batch of nutrients.

i use jack's (jrpeters) 5-12-26 base with calcium nitrate (calcinit) and magnesium sulfate. the mixture comes out at an NPK ratio of approx 3-1-4.

so i'm applying a very stable, premixed solution to a very stable, premixed solution. no negative issues whatsoever.

right now i'm mixing approx ec 1.4 and the system ph is stable around 5.6-6.1. it just floats back and forth around those numbers.

this theory of feeding is known as "mass balance." it assumes that all inputs are in the plant, the medium, or the solution and if the npk ratio is correct it will allow the plant to take up what it needs at different points of life.

for example, throughout the vegetative cycle up to about 2.5 weeks into the stretch part of flowering the solution is pulled downward in strength because of the high nitrogen demand. at approx the 2.5 week point the solution will start showing a tendency to increase in strength so at that point you simply feed a lower dose.

i have used many types of soilless media but i have found a way to use perlite amended with worm castings and diatomaceous earth. i'm also adding fulvic acid and kelp powder to the liquid feed.

this is a trouble-free, highly productive method. it almost operates itself. all i do is monitor and feed.

for 5 years i ran a legal facility in oregon and lab tested for cannabinoids and terpenes. i had excellent results and produced a high quality product.

here are a few pics of plants in that facility. please notice that there is only one stem under each of these.

i have posted multiple grows here on this system.

 

[Crooked8]

@Crooked8
Have you looked at how boron toxicity presents in the leaf?
High boron & zinc both interfere with potassium absorption also.
—> not an expert, I literally just read this.

I have, its unfortunately similar looking to K deficiency . Necrotic edge, but in any of the examples ive seen it looks like less severe necrosis and without and less of the entire edge appears burnt. Im a touch low Zinc but high Boron. It appears I may benefit greatly from deionization if it is in the water. Having the high boron could be causing the issue with my K uptake if what youre reading is correct. Mind sharing where you found that info? Id greatly appreciate it!

 

[JKD]

I have, its unfortunately similar looking to K deficiency . Necrotic edge, but in any of the examples ive seen it looks like less severe necrosis and without and less of the entire edge appears burnt. Im a touch low Zinc but high Boron. It appears I may benefit greatly from deionization if it is in the water. Having the high boron could be causing the issue with my K uptake if what youre reading is correct. Mind sharing where you found that info? Id greatly appreciate it!

This is different to the study I was reading, which I can’t find it’s not cannabis specific (nor was the one I was reading), but shows that the relationship is synergetic until a point, and then antagonistic:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260422940_Interactive_Effects_of_Boron_and_Potassium_on_the_Growth_and_Mineral_Composition_of_Bean_Phaseolus_vulgaris_L

 

[Hammerhead]

Mango Haze x C5 x Mango Haze GROWN under a Mars FCE-6500.

 

[Ca++]

i've been growing with this system since sept 2009. i am the inventor of this system. i'm also known as delta9nxs. i use a continuous liquid feed but it is a closed-loop recirculating scheme that maintains ec and ph in an extremely stable fashion throughout the grow. there is a recirculating reservoir under each plant and the entire system is fed from an elevated tank that does not recirculate. the crop can be steered in any direction by adjusting feed strength and ph while mixing each batch of nutrients.

i use jack's (jrpeters) 5-12-26 base with calcium nitrate (calcinit) and magnesium sulfate. the mixture comes out at an NPK ratio of approx 3-1-4.

so i'm applying a very stable. premixed solution to a very stable. premixed solution. no negative issues whatsoever.

right now i'm mixing approx ec 1.4 and the system ph is stable around 5.6-6.1. it just floats back and forth around those numbers.

this theory of feeding is known as "mass balance." it assumes that all inputs are in the plant, the medium, or the solution and if the npk ratio is correct it will allow the plant to take up what it needs at different points of life.

for example, throughout the vegetative cycle up to about 2.5 weeks into the stretch part of flowering the solution is pulled downward in strength because of the high nitrogen demand. at approx the 2.5 week point the solution will start showing a tendency to increase in strength so at that point you simply feed a lower dose.

i have used many types of soilless media but i have found a way to use perlite amended with worm castings and diatomaceous earth. i'm also adding fulvic acid and kelp powder to the liquid feed.

this is a trouble-free, highly productive method. it almost operates itself. all i do is monitor and feed.

for 5 years i ran a legal facility in oregon and lab tested for cannabinoids and terpenes. i had excellent results and produced a high quality product.

here are a few pics of plants in that facility. please notice that there is only one stem under each of these.

i have posted multiple grows here on this system.

Do you have tank or tissue sample reports? You must be adding N and K quite a lot, to avoid Jacks excess P. Which can be seen when looking at the feed profile, beside the expectations of tissue analysis. By mid bloom, I expect a growing portion of your EC is P, or your plants are taking it in. It has to be somewhere.
If the pics are being fed this way, they have certainly got big. With no sign of P excess that I can see. I would feel compelled to get the tank tested though, to help me keep it in line. I don't really have green fingers to guide me.

 

[Crooked8]

Boric Acid can be in the water, and typical RO machines only have a 50% efficiency rating for it's removal. It is best taken at a low ph, like F-e which is also a little high. It's toxicity signs are on this image
View attachment 18881483

K and N would be more available with a higher pH, so it's worth thinking about.

That have used B&M figures, to compare yours with. It's the traditional choice, as it dates back the longest (2014) but it's also the oldest. Done with unknown veg plants, at low sample rates.
That link I offered last week, shows 3 such studies. Then a state level opinion draw from them, and literally hundreds more. Done over many floral grows, over a few years. They offer 3 as an upper calcium limit, and 0.65 for Mg. Of the two, Mg stands out to me, as a possible cause for concern. I don't see any study accept levels that high, with Landis thinking 0.46 is the top end. In terms of K interference, you can only look at Ca and Mg from your results, and maybe the pH.
Getting a little out my depth, Mg is the central part of chlorophyll, and needs the N soon after. It's therefore abundant. Though I can't be sure what that means, Higher Mg certainly knocks yield.

I have not seen a cannabis study of Zn. We have ranges found in good looking plants, but no specific study of changing it's level. The states guidance is 33-60 and they may of been reading what I have. Other plants, though not direct analogues, have really improved with Zn levels increased. One of the main reasons, is drought resistance. Things could grow with Zn treatments, in places they didn't. As I look upon the burning, I wonder if Zn at 20 is doing you any favours.

Round up:
I think the pH is worth playing with, to favour N&K over B. Though it's just mild experimentation. Your iron is a little high, and raising pH usually effects f-e first, so you seem to have scope for a higher pH.

Obviously you have high K in the feed, and need to keep it that way. Perhaps sooner, as you say.

Zn I have played with. I didn't get a second run at it, but that one showed good merit. Increasing it can effect f-e, but again, you are not suffering with low f-e. IIRC I was running 0.4 stock, and moved to 0.6, which is still not very high, but 50% more.



The big question is, do you still think it was very expensive?

So I reached out to Growonix, I like their team and products. They told me RO machines do remove boron but its at about a 60-90% efficacy based on what input water ph and psi. Higher ph and higher psi reject boron more efficiently. Food for thought.

 

[greyfader]

Do you have tank or tissue sample reports? You must be adding N and K quite a lot, to avoid Jacks excess P. Which can be seen when looking at the feed profile, beside the expectations of tissue analysis. By mid bloom, I expect a growing portion of your EC is P, or your plants are taking it in. It has to be somewhere.
If the pics are being fed this way, they have certainly got big. With no sign of P excess that I can see. I would feel compelled to get the tank tested though, to help me keep it in line. I don't really have green fingers to guide me.

those plants were grown exactly this way. as were the plants in the pic below. the plants above were grown under sunlight supply ac/de fixtures with philips greenpower bulbs. the plants below were grown using leds

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/284231562_Nutrient_management_in_recirculating_hydroponic_culture

editing to add that i do not have tissue or solution reports but these plants showed absolutely no displays of any kind. no spots, no burned tips or edges, just green luxurious growth.

in the pic below the plant is purple mesa cbd and it tested at 18% cbd.

 

[Ca++]

So I reached out to Growonix, I like their team and products. They told me RO machines do remove boron but its at about a 60-90% efficacy based on what input water ph and psi. Higher ph and higher psi reject boron more efficiently. Food for thought.

These are the typical membranes we actually get, and have a 30-50% effectiveness listed

Reverse Osmosis Membrane 10 inch – 50 GPD, 75 GPD, 100 GPD, 150 GPD | RO-MAN Water Filtration

ro-man.com

90% is a dream scenario. Where you have 36000ppm at 11.2 pH. These are figures from labs trying to clean up the coolant from nuclear power stations. Though they are not making it work.

If you get that typical filter brand (which I forget) they have a website listing lots of things they can produce. The problem will remain getting one. As an example, just a few years ago, I couldn't get a membrane, that was simply rated for tap pressure. I had no other spec to meet. Everywhere was selling high pressure membranes that had a delivery barely 25% of the rated figure, when used with tap pressure. The industry was being pumped with these high pressure filters, and the idea we will buy booster pumps. I tried every marketplace a nobody can access. I then bombarded the sellers of worth, with some hard facts, and soon after, the elements for tap use became available. Though not in the filter kit from China yet. You still have to change the element yourself.

With such useless supply lines, you may struggle to get 50%, and if they say 60-90 is normal, perhaps get some part numbers before investing in their kit. I don't believe them, and think the link above proves that without doubt.

 

[Ca++]

those plants were grown exactly this way. as were the plants in the pic below. the plants above were grown under sunlight supply ac/de fixtures with philips greenpower bulbs. the plant below were grown using leds

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/284231562_Nutrient_management_in_recirculating_hydroponic_culture

Well there not looking shabby are they
I will have a read of your link in a second. You are obviously decades ahead of me along this road. I'm not even looking for the junction yet, but you do make the route seem scenic.

What's going on above the lights there? Don't tell me they are air cooled. I'm guessing co2, but the spacing of a tube per light is hard to ignore

 

[greyfader]

Well there not looking shabby are they
I will have a read of your link in a second. You are obviously decades ahead of me along this road. I'm not even looking for the junction yet, but you do make the route seem scenic.

What's going on above the lights there? Don't tell me they are air cooled. I'm guessing co2, but the spacing of a tube per light is hard to ignore

if you mean the cbd facility in nashville they are in a 6k sq ft sealed concrete basement with 14 ft ceilings. the whole room has a lot of air movement and redundant a/c plus 2 quest 550's for humidity control. there are fans every 15 ft on the perimeter walls all pointed at the center of the room creating what i call "crazy air". the movement will extinguish a bic butane lighter anywhere in the room. co2 set at 750 ppm with a 50 ppm deadband.

in the hps room in oregon there was also a lot of air movement and co2 set the same way.

 

[Ca++]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/284231562_Nutrient_management_in_recirculating_hydroponic_culture

They used the same examples as me, to get the same points across. Obviously they had some numbers to offer from actually doing it with various crops, but it felt like reading my own book. I think it was even delivered in the same order.

It's amazing what you learn in a cab.

 

[CannaT]

I find out that HPS have not as much quality of visible spectrum but if you take in account all visible and non visible spectrum...HPS is much more vider spectrum than any Led lights/board.

And led lights produce some UV but its almost non existing cuz phosphoros convert it to white light.

Thats why I can never have HPS pungency under leds.
Led can produce good weed...but great weed is produced under HPS.

Leds can be good but cant give you perfect product.
I will go back to Hids this winter.

When grown under hps cuz of uv,ir plant produce much more alchocols and sulphure compounds than led grown have much higher tranpiration rate cuz of this. Have much better immune system and are much more healthy than under leds.
Not any led grow can get me high for hours...fuck the led if you want quality.
if you care about electricity bills or room temp its ok...but in all things its just shit and thats all.

Thats why most of weed today is watered trash...no alchocol and no sulphure compound in them to really poison your brain...

Smoking few phenos of gelato chem,and strawberry glue...perfect grown under leds and still they miss a lot to hps....Jack missed a lot comoared to HPS...

 

[CannaT]

I have, its unfortunately similar looking to K deficiency . Necrotic edge, but in any of the examples ive seen it looks like less severe necrosis and without and less of the entire edge appears burnt. Im a touch low Zinc but high Boron. It appears I may benefit greatly from deionization if it is in the water. Having the high boron could be causing the issue with my K uptake if what youre reading is correct. Mind sharing where you found that info? Id greatly appreciate it!

I told you about boron before.

 

[goingrey]

I find out that HPS have not as much quality of visible spectrum but if you take in account all visible and non visible spectrum...HPS is much more vider spectrum than any Led lights/board.

And led lights produce some UV but its almost non existing cuz phosphoros convert it to white light.

Thats why I can never have HPS pungency under leds.
Led can produce good weed...but great weed is produced under HPS.

Leds can be good but cant give you perfect product.
I will go back to Hids this winter.

When grown under hps cuz of uv,ir plant produce much more alchocols and sulphure compounds than led grown have much higher tranpiration rate cuz of this. Have much better immune system and are much more healthy than under leds.
Not any led grow can get me high for hours...fuck the led if you want quality.
if you care about electricity bills or room temp its ok...but in all things its just shit and thats all.

Thats why most of weed today is watered trash...no alchocol and no sulphure compound in them to really poison your brain...

Smoking few phenos of gelato chem,and strawberry glue...perfect grown under leds and still they miss a lot to hps....Jack missed a lot comoared to HPS...

Most HPS lights do not emit UV light and the ones that do only miniscule amounts.

For UV you need LEP (plasma), special LED UV diodes (the light I use has one of them, for sure legit as it discolors plastic under it, unsure of benefits to the grow), or a special UV fluorescent tube.

Or the sun.. but even then if growing in a greenhouse you have to be careful with panel material choice.

 

[Crooked8]

I told you about boron before.

Im aware, you also said it was excess P. You also said P only functions to produce seeds. Your crystal ball is hit or miss my friend

 

[CannaT]

Im aware, you also said it was excess P. You also said P only functions to produce seeds. Your crystal ball is hit or miss my friend

If you dont know ppm in your rez...you also dont know.
But shure there is much more improvment in your grows...looks like you are water boy in that gr. Grow in hidro and dont know amount of nutes in rez its very wierd.
I never said that good formula for npk is 0 P...but you are right...21 years of growing still dont know how to propper grow.. 2 more life and it will be fine.
Maybe some day you will know how
Give us some pictures of your plants...pictures say 1000 words.

 

[CannaT]

Most HPS lights do not emit UV light and the ones that do only miniscule amounts.

For UV you need LEP (plasma), special LED UV diodes (the light I use has one of them, for sure legit as it discolors plastic under it, unsure of benefits to the grow), or a special UV fluorescent tube.

Or the sun.. but even then if growing in a greenhouse you have to be careful with panel material choice.

You are funny man where did you read that ?
Most HID lighting emits a significant amount of UV radiation...

HPS is still supperrior to every fucking led board there is....

 

[goingrey]

You are funny man where did you read that ?
Most HID lighting emits a significant amount of UV radiation...

As an example, this is the chart provided by Philips themselves for their MASTER GreenPower 600W 400V E40 bulb.

UV range is 100-400nm, with the red arrow.