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LED and BUD QUALITY
- Thread starter Tropical Sun
- Start date
Charles Dankens
Well-known member
Agree. I've got a tiny flower room so tying it up for 100 days takes devotion. It is though a good yielder, a pleasure to trim and a unique smoke. I usually do at least 1 run a year. First time in a while using a reg bean.
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@Ca++ @CannaT
A little low in N but significantly low in K(attaboy @Ca++ )Phosphorous is in completely acceptable range. Somehow really high in Boron which i was told is actually not a big deal I guess cannabis tolerates a lot. Im just clueless where thats coming from? I dont supplement it at all. Anyway thanks to both of you guys! You were both correct technically minus the too much P which i knew couldnt be it. Im going to up my base feed a bit from the start and supplement K even earlier.
A little low in N but significantly low in K(attaboy @Ca++ )Phosphorous is in completely acceptable range. Somehow really high in Boron which i was told is actually not a big deal I guess cannabis tolerates a lot. Im just clueless where thats coming from? I dont supplement it at all. Anyway thanks to both of you guys! You were both correct technically minus the too much P which i knew couldnt be it. Im going to up my base feed a bit from the start and supplement K even earlier.
Ca++
Well-known member
Boric Acid can be in the water, and typical RO machines only have a 50% efficiency rating for it's removal. It is best taken at a low ph, like F-e which is also a little high. It's toxicity signs are on this image
K and N would be more available with a higher pH, so it's worth thinking about.
That have used B&M figures, to compare yours with. It's the traditional choice, as it dates back the longest (2014) but it's also the oldest. Done with unknown veg plants, at low sample rates.
That link I offered last week, shows 3 such studies. Then a state level opinion draw from them, and literally hundreds more. Done over many floral grows, over a few years. They offer 3 as an upper calcium limit, and 0.65 for Mg. Of the two, Mg stands out to me, as a possible cause for concern. I don't see any study accept levels that high, with Landis thinking 0.46 is the top end. In terms of K interference, you can only look at Ca and Mg from your results, and maybe the pH.
Getting a little out my depth, Mg is the central part of chlorophyll, and needs the N soon after. It's therefore abundant. Though I can't be sure what that means, Higher Mg certainly knocks yield.
I have not seen a cannabis study of Zn. We have ranges found in good looking plants, but no specific study of changing it's level. The states guidance is 33-60 and they may of been reading what I have. Other plants, though not direct analogues, have really improved with Zn levels increased. One of the main reasons, is drought resistance. Things could grow with Zn treatments, in places they didn't. As I look upon the burning, I wonder if Zn at 20 is doing you any favours.
Round up:
I think the pH is worth playing with, to favour N&K over B. Though it's just mild experimentation. Your iron is a little high, and raising pH usually effects f-e first, so you seem to have scope for a higher pH.
Obviously you have high K in the feed, and need to keep it that way. Perhaps sooner, as you say.
Zn I have played with. I didn't get a second run at it, but that one showed good merit. Increasing it can effect f-e, but again, you are not suffering with low f-e. IIRC I was running 0.4 stock, and moved to 0.6, which is still not very high, but 50% more.
The big question is, do you still think it was very expensive?
K and N would be more available with a higher pH, so it's worth thinking about.
That have used B&M figures, to compare yours with. It's the traditional choice, as it dates back the longest (2014) but it's also the oldest. Done with unknown veg plants, at low sample rates.
That link I offered last week, shows 3 such studies. Then a state level opinion draw from them, and literally hundreds more. Done over many floral grows, over a few years. They offer 3 as an upper calcium limit, and 0.65 for Mg. Of the two, Mg stands out to me, as a possible cause for concern. I don't see any study accept levels that high, with Landis thinking 0.46 is the top end. In terms of K interference, you can only look at Ca and Mg from your results, and maybe the pH.
Getting a little out my depth, Mg is the central part of chlorophyll, and needs the N soon after. It's therefore abundant. Though I can't be sure what that means, Higher Mg certainly knocks yield.
I have not seen a cannabis study of Zn. We have ranges found in good looking plants, but no specific study of changing it's level. The states guidance is 33-60 and they may of been reading what I have. Other plants, though not direct analogues, have really improved with Zn levels increased. One of the main reasons, is drought resistance. Things could grow with Zn treatments, in places they didn't. As I look upon the burning, I wonder if Zn at 20 is doing you any favours.
Round up:
I think the pH is worth playing with, to favour N&K over B. Though it's just mild experimentation. Your iron is a little high, and raising pH usually effects f-e first, so you seem to have scope for a higher pH.
Obviously you have high K in the feed, and need to keep it that way. Perhaps sooner, as you say.
Zn I have played with. I didn't get a second run at it, but that one showed good merit. Increasing it can effect f-e, but again, you are not suffering with low f-e. IIRC I was running 0.4 stock, and moved to 0.6, which is still not very high, but 50% more.
The big question is, do you still think it was very expensive?
I do supplement cal mag for the first 3 weeks of flower. Im wondering if our base already has enough. Probably does, as far as PH goes, im always between 5.8-6.2, when i do reservoir changes were shooting for 6.0. So im not in a low range by any means. As far as their 2014 numbers they do differ from bugbee a bit. It was expensive for sure but im glad i did this again its been too long and weve altered many things. One thing to consider is this sample hadent seen K supplementation yet. Since then that has been corrected just not soon enough for some strains. I do have some strains that look perfect. I only submitted a sample of the clearly deficient/necrotic material.
WingzHauser
Active member
Those plants need P with the K. You'll never be happy with blue leaves and purple petioles. Ask an outdoor grower the difference between lights not an indoor grower lol. One is a hustle. Ones not. Those are the categories moving forward. Now that we're over that hurdle..
Most led is P deficient due to its IR deficient spectrum yet the worst thing you can do under led is boost P in flower. The earlier the better. You never want to see hotdog petioles in veg or early flower. Looking around most led seeds start with hotdog stems. That's the LED trap. Replacing IR with heat, replacing pkb with camg. Normalizing bruise colors and spreading out P waaaaay too late.
Why increase heat for Led? Why not micro rays? X rays? Because heat is the obvious low hanging cop out answer when you build spectrum deficient grow lights for Americans, never bothering to grow healthy crops in your own country. China needs an artificial sun worse than anyone, yet they don't have what it takes. Chinese natural design concepts include humans in bear suit at zoo. Spray painted mountainside, plastic leaves stapled to dead tree. Rocks glued to rebar for satellite flower garden imagery. Don't buy this "bruise colored weed is normal, just add calmag" narrative to sell junk product. Spend your watt dollars on greenhouse material if you hate the outdoors that bad. Show the sun some respect dammit. Gotta remind everyone what the price of hemp bud is. 15 a lb. Seeds $100/500,000qty
Retail.
That B is probably undisclosed in your calmag, as any respectable calmag bandaid product would definitely include it for Led growers. You need way more K with high B though. They'd also include phosphorus and everything calcium magnesium potassium phosphorus antagonize, if I owned the calmag factory. But if I owned the calmag factory the pesticide factory fungicide factory and the dispensary I'd keep doing it the Cannabis way.
Tissue tests are a scam. Individual ppm is irrelevant. Oxidation state? Undetermined. Any lab using ppms and ignoring relevant ratios is a joke. Plants can't use rust but they will take it up and report it on tissue.
Double your nitrogen, get curl? Double boron + phos. Curl goes away. K deficiency shows up. Fix that, induce calcium deficit, fix that induce magnesium deficiency. I have never once used calcium magnesium. If you were legally allowed 2 spray bottles in your grow, divide your nutes into photosynthesis/protein synthesis and photosynthate transport. These cannabis products and suggestions do not make sense. Your leaves are absolutely loaded with photosynthate and it's not flowing out of the leaves into new growth. They'll recommend K with no relevancy to high Ca Mg or B numbers? It's a hustle.
Most led is P deficient due to its IR deficient spectrum yet the worst thing you can do under led is boost P in flower. The earlier the better. You never want to see hotdog petioles in veg or early flower. Looking around most led seeds start with hotdog stems. That's the LED trap. Replacing IR with heat, replacing pkb with camg. Normalizing bruise colors and spreading out P waaaaay too late.
Why increase heat for Led? Why not micro rays? X rays? Because heat is the obvious low hanging cop out answer when you build spectrum deficient grow lights for Americans, never bothering to grow healthy crops in your own country. China needs an artificial sun worse than anyone, yet they don't have what it takes. Chinese natural design concepts include humans in bear suit at zoo. Spray painted mountainside, plastic leaves stapled to dead tree. Rocks glued to rebar for satellite flower garden imagery. Don't buy this "bruise colored weed is normal, just add calmag" narrative to sell junk product. Spend your watt dollars on greenhouse material if you hate the outdoors that bad. Show the sun some respect dammit. Gotta remind everyone what the price of hemp bud is. 15 a lb. Seeds $100/500,000qty
Retail.
That B is probably undisclosed in your calmag, as any respectable calmag bandaid product would definitely include it for Led growers. You need way more K with high B though. They'd also include phosphorus and everything calcium magnesium potassium phosphorus antagonize, if I owned the calmag factory. But if I owned the calmag factory the pesticide factory fungicide factory and the dispensary I'd keep doing it the Cannabis way.
Tissue tests are a scam. Individual ppm is irrelevant. Oxidation state? Undetermined. Any lab using ppms and ignoring relevant ratios is a joke. Plants can't use rust but they will take it up and report it on tissue.
Double your nitrogen, get curl? Double boron + phos. Curl goes away. K deficiency shows up. Fix that, induce calcium deficit, fix that induce magnesium deficiency. I have never once used calcium magnesium. If you were legally allowed 2 spray bottles in your grow, divide your nutes into photosynthesis/protein synthesis and photosynthate transport. These cannabis products and suggestions do not make sense. Your leaves are absolutely loaded with photosynthate and it's not flowing out of the leaves into new growth. They'll recommend K with no relevancy to high Ca Mg or B numbers? It's a hustle.
Ca++
Well-known member
I'm not sure what to make of this:
It's making a suggestion, that I won't offer. I think it's out of context.
Bugbee recently said he runs a high pH, no matter what system. Stating cannabis will find iron if there is any. I think he was talking 6.3 But I get iron problems almost instantly if I pass 6.0 (which might be due to my 280ppm Ca water) So I concur, that your target pH is fine.
This is a great topic. It's not very often we see the whole path, from spotting the issue, to guessing, to proper testing and discussion. We should see a lot more of it, as people realise how quickly some real answers can be found. The internet will often give 10 reasons for the same thing, leaving many people crawling along, as they can't get up and run. The lab result is really quite fast, and concise. There is no interpretation needed, it's low K we can see. Plus a number of discrepancies we might never know about, except for thinking we could of done better. Making even a healthy crop worth looking at.
Thanks for sharing the results with us.
It's making a suggestion, that I won't offer. I think it's out of context.
Bugbee recently said he runs a high pH, no matter what system. Stating cannabis will find iron if there is any. I think he was talking 6.3 But I get iron problems almost instantly if I pass 6.0 (which might be due to my 280ppm Ca water) So I concur, that your target pH is fine.
This is a great topic. It's not very often we see the whole path, from spotting the issue, to guessing, to proper testing and discussion. We should see a lot more of it, as people realise how quickly some real answers can be found. The internet will often give 10 reasons for the same thing, leaving many people crawling along, as they can't get up and run. The lab result is really quite fast, and concise. There is no interpretation needed, it's low K we can see. Plus a number of discrepancies we might never know about, except for thinking we could of done better. Making even a healthy crop worth looking at.
Thanks for sharing the results with us.
Ca++
Well-known member
Well it's certainly an opinion from the wingz
Tissue sampling is modern farming. Look at it this way, the lab has said low K. He has increased K and seen a good turnaround. That's the correct outcome.
I'm unsure why you think P low. P levels in hundreds of healthy looking cannabis have been tested, to get these sufficiency ranges. Of which, these plants are very near the top of accepted levels. Are you looking at ratios? wanting the P to balance Ca? These ratios are not part of modern farming. It's all about sufficiency. I asked my lab to add a ratio's column to my results, and have never had such a blank reaction.
I have not noticed red petioles on crooked's crop, but another users Kali showed strong signs. He's happy though, and likely can't spare the number of leaves to get sampling done. Which I guess you wouldn't do, but really is how farming is done these days.
There definitely seems to be a crossover of people thinking I posted about the red petioles and that was in fact another person. Ive contributed my issue with what looked like obvious K deficiency even though I suspected P as well. Necrotic leaf edge is my issue, it is really clear that supplementing K has improved my current crop. Tissue testing is rather routine and a very accurate way to assess what plants are getting vs what they are being given etc. Im not sure I follow a lot of what the above person is saying. It sounds like a lot of speculation vs science. Aside from that, my results are certainly eye opening. Im no longer going to supplement cal mag considering they are both somewhat high although they werent concerned about much beyond my N and K levels. They said the boron isnt a big issue for cannabis. Ill actually probably do a slight cal mag dose in veg and cut it at flower. I dont think tissue testing is a scam at all. Its important to see these values. I had most people tell me I was burning my plants, feeding too much this or that etc and its a toxicity issue. Considering I was at a feed of 1.4-1.8 the whole time i doubted that. This is a great example of a scenario where underfeeding showed itself in a necrotic “burned” appearance due to lack of feed. I honestly think if i just up my base feed and supplement K i wont see this issue again. Its already no longer present on many of my trays.
CannaT
starin' at the world through my rearview
so I was saying right low N high P low K.
Thats my expirience higher N and K lower P is the best for unseeded cannabis.
Cannabis fruits are seeds not flowers...flowers are medium where fruit grow.
No pollination no fruit no need for P.
One good grower here at icmag doing test side by side with same cuttings.
low N higher PK modern cali how I call these types of flower formula.
vs higher N K and lower P...
Cant wait to see results.
Maybe Im sometimes sound like yerk but its more of language barrier expecially when im stoned af....but like to help others.
CannaT
starin' at the world through my rearview
Nothing beats HPS if you dont live in desert or tropics indoors.
Well the P was in range not high, and there is a dynamic need for P for processes other than seed production. Its a macro, it has many functions.so I was saying right low N high P low K.
Thats my expirience higher N and K lower P is the best for unseeded cannabis.
Cannabis fruits are seeds not flowers...flowers are medium where fruit grow.
No pollination no fruit no need for P.
One good grower here at icmag doing test side by side with same cuttings.
low N higher PK modern cali how I call these types of flower formula.
vs higher N K and lower P...
Cant wait to see results.
Maybe Im sometimes sound like yerk but its more of language barrier expecially when im stoned af....but like to help others.
Ca++
Well-known member
K is an odd one. A number of decent studies, have shown it does next to nothing. Some, actually no response at all. Yet here, I think 100ppm extra was needed. Added to a base feed that surely offered some already. This doesn't seem unusual either. Giving a spread of examples that's near impossible to decipher.
I would like to know a little more about Mg's ability to effect K. I don't think the knowledge is out there though. What we are seeing here, is related to K's water use regulation, which looks different under LED than it did under HID. This is something I have thought for a while, so it's nice to see lab results back it up.
The effect seems different, as the blue portion of light, opens the stomata, just a little more. Yet at the same time, the lower IR means the edges don't warm so much. It's all very close when measured. But different enough to be running warmer rooms, and adding Ca to accommodate the difference in water loss. Which itself doesn't seem the same for everyone. While VPD has gained importance, and we don't see the classic K deficiency signs anymore. I don't think anyone has posted them in years. Water movement within our plants is different with LED. We haven't quite painted the picture of how yet. With things like the role of K, not just closing, or just opening, but rather controlling by moving in&out.
On a related note, I have had a couple of people tell me that waking the plant's slowly is helping their LED grows. These people were having an early morning slump. They have found bringing on half the lights for a bit, then the rest, is avoiding this. I'm starting to think they may also have low K. Stomata are not quick to respond, when compared to the photosynthesis processes they support. It's likely the collapse is slow opening, leading to a lack of co2. They should probably think about Blue light first. As they can't get tissue samples. Which could nail the problem in a week.
I would like to know a little more about Mg's ability to effect K. I don't think the knowledge is out there though. What we are seeing here, is related to K's water use regulation, which looks different under LED than it did under HID. This is something I have thought for a while, so it's nice to see lab results back it up.
The effect seems different, as the blue portion of light, opens the stomata, just a little more. Yet at the same time, the lower IR means the edges don't warm so much. It's all very close when measured. But different enough to be running warmer rooms, and adding Ca to accommodate the difference in water loss. Which itself doesn't seem the same for everyone. While VPD has gained importance, and we don't see the classic K deficiency signs anymore. I don't think anyone has posted them in years. Water movement within our plants is different with LED. We haven't quite painted the picture of how yet. With things like the role of K, not just closing, or just opening, but rather controlling by moving in&out.
On a related note, I have had a couple of people tell me that waking the plant's slowly is helping their LED grows. These people were having an early morning slump. They have found bringing on half the lights for a bit, then the rest, is avoiding this. I'm starting to think they may also have low K. Stomata are not quick to respond, when compared to the photosynthesis processes they support. It's likely the collapse is slow opening, leading to a lack of co2. They should probably think about Blue light first. As they can't get tissue samples. Which could nail the problem in a week.
greyfader
Well-known member
something i don't see being discussed on this thread regarding nutrients is the differences between soil, hydro, soilless, recirculating, and drain-to-waste schemes. also, in soilless, the cec of the media has a profound effect on nutrient uptake.
for example, i'm using a recirculating soilless system that i do not dump or change out during a grow. it's all input only from veg all the way to harvest.
the need for any one element and it's interaction with other elements might vary depending on the way the plants are being cultured.
for example, i'm using a recirculating soilless system that i do not dump or change out during a grow. it's all input only from veg all the way to harvest.
the need for any one element and it's interaction with other elements might vary depending on the way the plants are being cultured.
greyfader
Well-known member
in regards to this phenomenon, i have observed a photosynthetic lagtime that might vary with spectra and/or intensity.
in my system, the ppk recirculating soilless hydroponic system, which is both top irrigated by pump and timer and sub-irrigated 24/7 by capillary rise, the reservoir water level is controlled by a float valve.
i have turned the top-watering apparatus off several hours before the lights came on and observed the float valve. there will be an occasional drip before the lights first come on but it takes about 1/2 hour to create a steady draw on the valve. from a drip every minute or so to a steady drip, drip, drip takes about 30 minutes.
i interpret this as the startup speed of photosynthesis. it also takes about 30 minutes for it to slow down to the occasional drip again.
RobertFripp
Active member
Not trying to shill for anyone, but AKBeanBraiins has the original 90s Serious Seeds Kali Mist for sale.
