LED and BUD QUALITY

[GoatCheese]

The modern LED light can be considered "more cold" in comparison to a HPS lamp, but that is due to the HPS emitting much IR. The LEDs light is still more energetic, ie. higher raw amount of photons pumped out each second.

It doesn’t matter that us humans considered leds cooler than a hps bulb. And that seems to be the problem with many growers = They think the led light is cool enough

But the only thing that matters is that, if you have your leds too close to your canopy, it (beam hot spots) heats the plant tissue up too much.
If you place your temp meter close under your leds, i'm sure the reading will go past 40C and that is already too much for your plants. It may seem "cool" to you compared to a hps bulb but it's still too much for the plants to handle. Your opinion doesn’t matter to the plant tissue

 

[GoatCheese]

The diminishing of what you call "heat radiation" is due to the spread of the photons due to the fixtures beam angle. Diminishing their numbers with distance.

Obviously they don't spread out enough cause leds create hot spots via these concentrated beams.

Do you spend anytime thinking about what is actually happening in your grow space with your grow lights and your plants? Cause i need to constantly bring up the concentrated beams and the hot spots, and it seems that this does not register to some of you.

And you seem to suggest in your comment that the led light just spreads out and lose energy. Well obviously the beams are still well concentrated when the light hits the plant, no?
..i posted f-e's photo earlier in this thread where you can clearly see these beams hitting the floor. Go look at that for a while and have a think about it. Cause what you're saying doesn't match what is happening in our grow rooms too well.
In the absolute scientific sense it is happening - light spreading out - but this isn't a science club, we should be talking about cannabis growing.

Maybe you spend too much time thinking about wave lenghts and not enough time on cannabis plants under your leds cause this science shit is all you write about. Cannabis plants under leds is what we should talk about and how to make them work, not wavelengts and kcals. The thread is about leds and bud quality, not about wavelenght wankery.

 

[Corpselover Fat]

Thermal energy is emitted photons. Infra red radiation etc. are photons too

You're getting there. Photons have no heat. Photons have energy. Radiant heat is indeed photons. They are longer wavelength photons than visible light and thus less energetic photons than visible light.

Think about it. Photons will travel for ever until something absorbs them. They only lose energy by travelling through so much space and time that the actual expansion of the space itself stretches the waves. That's redshift. The further the photons travel the redder they become. Eventually becoming infrared, microwaves and radio waves. That shit takes literal aeons and too many kilometers to comprehend.

The photons do lose energy in the diodes. The diodes produce energetic blue photons, which are absorbed by the fluorescent material and then re-emitted as lower energy photons so we get white light. We can't make the photons more energetic so the shift is always towards red.

 

[Koondense]

Let's make a thread "Those who likes other people's posts are my enemies" or maybe "Nobody knows - except me"... A thread where Dumbos can be dumb and call everyone else stoopid.
Goat cheese, you can go post there, we promise to leave you alone with your one brain cell.

Sorry for everybody else reading this but Dumbos get to be labeled so people know exactly who they are.

Cheers

 

[GoatCheese]

You're getting there. Photons have no heat. Photons have energy. Radiant heat is indeed photons. They are longer wavelength photons than visible light and thus less energetic photons than visible light.

Think about it. Photons will travel for ever until something absorbs them. They only lose energy by travelling through so much space and time that the actual expansion of the space itself stretches the waves. That's redshift. The further the photons travel the redder they become. Eventually becoming infrared, microwaves and radio waves. That shit takes literal aeons and too many kilometers to comprehend.

The photons do lose energy in the diodes. The diodes produce energetic blue photons, which are absorbed by the fluorescent material and then re-emitted as lower energy photons so we get white light. We can't make the photons more energetic so the shift is always towards red.

Blaah, blaah red shift...

The photons certainly lose no energy between the diode and your plants.

..is what you wrote and obviously the PPFD reading picture from Mars Hydro web site clearly shows they lose energy on their way to canopy .

 

[GoatCheese]

Let's make a thread "Those who likes other people's posts are my enemies" or maybe "Nobody knows - except me"... A thread where Dumbos can be dumb and call everyone else stoopid.
Goat cheese, you can go post there, we promise to leave you alone with your one brain cell.

Sorry for everybody else reading this but Dumbos get to be labeled so people know exactly who they are.

Cheers

LOL. You're the one who started mocking me when i didn't agree with your views and went all sarcastic with me. It's you who started this, dip shit. You have a short memory. Like i told back you then, it's ridiculous that sarcastic people start calling out other people's manners. F U

 

[Corpselover Fat]

Obviously they don't spread out enough cause leds create hot spots via these concentrated beams.

Do you spend anytime thinking about what is actually happening in your grow space with your grow lights and your plants? Cause i need to constantly bring up the concentrated beams and the hot spots, and it seems that this does not register to some of you.

And you seem to suggest in your comment that the led light just spreads out and lose energy. Well obviously the beams are still well concentrated when the light hits the plant, no?

I think most of us have spent time with our plants and leds and have not experienced those hot spots. I haven't and that is why I just skipped over it. The light from my panels is very diffuse.

This is the radiation pattern of lm301b. It is not a tight beam.

 

[Bluebic]

Hello everyone, I'm just going through the forums and thinking about switching to ice, but when I read this, I brush my gavita and move on..

 

[GoatCheese]

Think about it. Photons will travel for ever until something absorbs them.

Yea, till something absorbs them – like the atmospheric gasses between your leds and the canopy, right = photons lose energy and so don’t eventually heat up the plant tissue so much when enough atomic matter of the atmospheric gasses absorb some of this energy.

See, there’s no need to talk about red shift and cosmic bull shit, just focus on what’s going on in your grow room.

 

[Cerathule]

they lose energy on their way to canopy

No, they get more dispersed (in numbers) over a greater area.
But taken together their energy remains identical.
There's laws about energy conservation. If the "concentrated beams" lost energy, you need to explain where that energy went. "The air cooled it"? Air is thin & transparent, energy loss is negligible

 

[Corpselover Fat]

Yea, till something absorbs them – like the atmospheric gasses between your leds and the canopy, right = photons lose energy and so don’t eventually heat up the plant tissue so much when enough atomic matter of the atmospheric gasses absorb some of this energy.

See, there’s no need to talk about red shift and cosmic bull shit, just focus on what’s going on in your grow room.

There is so little air between the diode and the plant that effectively no light gets absorbed. Light spreads then hits the walls and not all of it gets reflected back. That's why we lose light between the fixture and plant.


Redsift and cosmic stuff were there just to help you understand that photons do not have heat and that they do not lose energy between your lamp and your plants.

 

[GoatCheese]

I think most of us have spent time with our plants and leds and have not experienced those hot spots. I haven't and that is why I just skipped over it. The light from my panels is very diffuse.

This is the radiation pattern of lm301b. It is not a tight beam.

Even that graph you used shows that most light out of a led chip is going straight down creating a abeam. Thou the viewing angle is Samsungs is 115 degrees, most of the light is going straight down while it gets weaker on the higher angles.

 

[Corpselover Fat]

Even that graph you used shows that most light out of a led chip is going straight down creating a abeam. Thou the viewing angle is Samsungs is 115 degrees, most of the light is going straight down while it gets weaker on the higher angles.

The intensity is 50% of the centre even at 60 degrees from centre line. In 120 degree arc the intensity is atleast 50%

 

[GoatCheese]

No, they get more dispersed (in numbers) over a greater area.
But taken together their energy remains identical.
There's laws about energy conservation. If the "concentrated beams" lost energy, you need to explain where that energy went. "The air cooled it"? Air is thin & transparent, energy loss is negligible

When photons out of the led chip hit the molecules of the atmospheric gasses and get absorbed, you are claiming no energy was lost (absorbed by the atomic matter)?

..isn’t this what your reply is implying?

Maybe you neglect too much

You have trouble keeping in mind that the “transparent air” is actually made of atomic matter the stuff that absorbs energy.
The photons that hit the plant tissue are actually a secondary radiation of photons out of these atmospheric molecules, not the original photons that were emitted out of the chips surface. This is also how day light(sun light) works.

 

[Ca++]

Thermal energy is emitted photons. Infra red radiation etc. are photons too

Thermal radiation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No, thermal energy isn't emitted photons. Thermal energy leads to emitted photons.

One item is getting excited and radiating a field proportional to the excitement. This field acts upon another object, shaking it at the same rate, which is an energy gain. There was nothing transferring between them that has a measurable temperature. It's more like entanglement in the electromagnetic spectrum. Like magnets moving magnets, the air between them(or lack of it)makes no difference.

 

[GoatCheese]

The intensity is 50% of the centre even at 60 degrees from centre line. In 120 degree arc the intensity is atleast 50%

You don't get it. You have trouble understanding what a beam is. Even what you're trying to say states that the beam is concentrated in the center.
You just want to talk back at me. Why don't you use more time on trying to understand what you're talking about than having a nonsense chat with me..

 

[Cerathule]

Here we have explained diminished irradiance, and what wavelengths are affected by the filtering of the atmosphere.
You can expect that if you can see a colour strongly from the sun, that this light won't have much problems surpassing the atmosphere, which consists of several layers comprised of different molecules. These filter but some light can still surpass. Some absorption is so minimal it only affects the light over a large distance, so you can see e.g. what ~80km (!) of water-vapour can only percentually take away in strength.

If you compare this to the effect of diminishing with distance, which can be drastic even with sheer meters - it's much negligible.

 

[Corpselover Fat]

You don't get it. You have trouble understanding what a beam is. Even what you're trying to say states that the beam is concentrated in the center.

Ten cm from the diode the tight beam makes circle of 34cm where no spot is less than 50% from the hottest spot. The fall off beyond that is not that drastic either. The edges of a 74cm circle still see 25% of the centre. This is from a diode 10 cm away from a surface.

I run 25*40cm boards with 308 diodes each. All the diodes would contribute meaningfully towards lighting the centre spot under a board even if it was only 10 cm away...

 

[GoatCheese]

No, thermal energy isn't emitted photons. Thermal energy leads to emitted photons.

One item is getting excited and radiating a field proportional to the excitement. This field acts upon another object, shaking it at the same rate, which is an energy gain. There was nothing transferring between them that has a measurable temperature. It's more like entanglement in the electromagnetic spectrum. Like magnets moving magnets, the air between them(or lack of it)makes no difference.

My bad. I should have written thermal radiation on that– like the wiki article is titled – but in mistake used the word energy.

Yes i understand it’s energy frequency till it hits matter – like happens with led-photons in grow rooms when they hit the atmosphere and plant tissue.

Photons are also doing the heat radiation transfer. Light/photons out of a led chip hits a medium as soon as it’s emitted, before it has even left the chip’s structure, so this light is never in an empty vacuum. It’s traveling via medium from the start, till it hits the plant tissue

..and dehydrates it if the led fixture is too close to canopy.
Hah-hah. I should actually count how many times i have mentioned the dehydration issue with leds in this thread! I'm repeating myself, right boys. This is getting quite old.



I should start talking about heat radiation in the led light rather than in terms like photons. It seems to side track things, and some of you just want to argue about terminology and wave lengths etc instead of talking about what is happening with your lights and plants.

Week after week you people talk about chips, your ppfd meters and wave lengths and pretty much never ever mention cannabis plants or bud quality. Page after page you talk about nothing related to cannabis growing - What you’re talking about are led tech-topics and should be in a different thread..



I’m the only person – between our lovely chat group over here- who uses the word ‘plant’ or ‘canopy’ or ‘plant tissue’ in majority of my posts , while you people barely mention cannabis plants and growing in this thread!

..f-ing trolls, ay, Ca++. LOL

Do you people even grow? Buy your weed in the street corner or from a legal shop?

Why don’t you wanna talk about plants and bud quality at all? That is very much related to the symptoms/stress leds cause.



PS.

When expansion of space causes the light waves to stretch, it suggests there’s friction involved – that light/photons are somewhat attached to the cosmic fabric . If there isn’t any kind of attachment the fabric of space would stretch without affecting light waves in any way.

So are you sure photons don’t have any temperature of their own?

Is there heat transfer going on when photons are being affected by the cosmic fabric, microwave background and what have you?



“All substances above absolute zero have thermal energy”

This includes photons.


Radiant heat, also known as thermal radiation, is the transfer of electromagnetic radiation which describes the heat exchange of energy by photons. Radiant heat is a mechanism for heat transfer which does not require a medium in which it propagates (unlike convection and conduction).[2]

All substances above absolute zero have thermal energy, which means that the particles contained in them have some form of motion. This motion of the particles contributes to the temperature of the object, with objects of "ordinary" temperatures (less than 1000 Kelvin) emitting their radiant heat primarily in the infrared spectrum of light.[2][3] The photons emitted by these moving charged particles will travel at the speed of light until they hit another particle, which absorbs its energy as kinetic energy. Interacting systems at different temperatures will do so by the exchange of radiant heat until they reach thermal equilibrium with one another. Although the exchange of photons doesn't stop at equilibrium, it cannot be noticed because of the identical temperature of the systems.

https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Radiant_heat

 

[GoatCheese]

Ten cm from the diode the tight beam makes circle of 34cm where no spot is less than 50% from the hottest spot. The fall off beyond that is not that drastic either. The edges of a 74cm circle still see 25% of the centre. This is from a diode 10 cm away from a surface.

I run 25*40cm boards with 308 diodes each. All the diodes would contribute meaningfully towards lighting the centre spot under a board even if it was only 10 cm away...

There are several photons being emitted by the chip at once and more are following them creating many tiny beams within the whole 115 degree light beam- You should see these as beams within the whole light beam of the chip.

Some led lights come with laser light warning stickers, like Viparspectra lights a year a go, and that is because leds create these beams.

If your led light has different colored chips on it and you can see the different light emitting sources, you’re looking at concentrated beams. If it was perfectly diffused it would look like soft bloom of uniform light. It’s very simple.