LED and BUD QUALITY

[CannaT]

Why do the leaves look so wrecked?

Jack think its Trainwreck
When I start grow It was preferable to have N deficiency at end.
Today lil john,lil wayne like to grow different.

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

3. Mycorrhizae in DWC eh? Admit it, you think that's a good idea but you don't really know why – because mycorrhizae has no benefit in DWC. I'll let you google the reasons why.

Howdy!

Nope, won't work. Mychorrizae is meant for perennials in soil. Takes a long time for the colony to get established. I innoculated some afghanis that I'm growing now for shits and grins. They're getting short day exposure in the greenhouse, been fed with Osmocote 15-9-12 only. I don't want to grow big plants. Had enough of that stuff.

They're 22"H after a recent topping. One in the middle is Afghaani mix from Real Seeds, outside plants are the old Amsterdam 1990 Master Kush X Afghani 90 cross, again Real Seeds sourced.

4. It's C99. I've grown and smoked a million versions. You didn't start wth the originals (Bros Grimm) and you claim to have an IBL/stable line with two different phenotypes.

Well well, I did start and had/have the original. Did backcrosses 20 or so years ago, all germed couple of years ago and am growing backcrosses of the Original C99 I got from Ron (Heaven's Stairway) during that time. They are very stable....as they should be. Garden link is attached. We go way back PC.

BTW, I also have most of the PC drama, posts, etc. way back then LOL

Jan. 17, C99 and my CindyPeak cross I did is in the back, seeds germed weeks after the indicas. C99 X (C99 X Peak19)

Best,
Uncle Ben

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

I had actually been doing business for almost 25 years with the grow shop on personal basis several years ago she’s not returning my calls because I refused to go over to LED

My old homemade 600 HPS ballast is for sale circa Oct. 1998. All it needs is a new cap. and you're good to go. This thing grew some serious plants back in the late 90's. I cut a 25' electric extension cord so I could keep some of the heat away from the garden. 8' or so went to the wall outlet, the rest went to the lamp fixture.

Those were the days.

UB

 

[dogzter]

I had actually been doing business for almost 25 years with the grow shop on personal basis several years ago she’s not returning my calls because I refused to go over to LED

Both of the guys that I know who run grow shops only recommend leds to people they do not know.

When I ask them what's new and better than the hps I already have they both laugh and say nothing on the market yet.

Jack think its Trainwreck
When I start grow It was preferable to have N deficiency at end.
Today lil john,lil wayne like to grow different.

I didn't understand any of this.
Is English your first language?

 

[flower~power]

Lol.. my house is littered with digital ballast & in the old days I went with the big heavy duty PL 1000 watt magnetic ballast with heavy metal handles because you needed them they were so heavy to haul around… they were indestructible those magnetic ballast …sorry for off-topic

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

Oh come on, thats your reasoning for increased anthocyanin production? With love and respect, please research this more. You listed a bunch of negative things while people are producing the dankest yet most purple plants ever in perfect health. Now why is that?

Anybody remember Cannacopia's Lapis Mtn. indica? Friend gave me some seed. Got some fine bud and then revegged the little one. Got 1.7 oz of cured bud off the revegged plant. Leaves were quite purple. Took the photo outside but it was grown for 7 straight months in this 2 gal. pot treated with MicroKote for root pruning. Fantastic high, bud is like glue, skunk stench is unbearable. Expected couch lock, Nope, clear as a bell, smooth. Osmocote fed for that 7 months.

Uncle Ben

 

[CannaT]

Both of the guys that I know who run grow shops only recommend leds to people they do not know.

When I ask them what's new and better than the hps I already have they both laugh and say nothing on the market yet.


I didn't understand any of this.
Is English your first language?

I consider myself world citizen so Eng is my first language...but still it is not on level of language my parrents learned me when I was born.

I told that when I start to grow...most infos I can get at that time is that N deficiency is good before harvest.
Did it different way ,and still I think buds to taste and smell the best is needed to eat all N they can befor harvest...

 

[dogzter]

This is a afghaan at 14 weeks flower in a #2 pot under hps.

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

My garden thread with plants under HPS, late 90's and recent garden pix using a Vipar Spectra KS5000. Love this rig, especially the detached driver. LED rack is light, easy to adjust, built like a tank.

Also posted spectral grafts of a 600HPS too. I studied this stuff to death way back then. Busted another myth - got to have a MH for da blues. Bullshit..... As I said back then, MH has sufficient reds, HPS has sufficient blues for good production, and my plants prove it.

https://www.icmag.com/threads/my-ga...ons-fire-away-im-here-to-help.18129483/page-2

 

[Prawn Connery]

Howdy!

Nope, won't work. Mychorrizae is meant for perennials in soil. Takes a long time for the colony to get established. I innoculated some afghanis that I'm growing now for shits and grins. They're getting short day exposure in the greenhouse, been fed with Osmocote 15-9-12 only. I don't want to grow big plants. Had enough of that stuff.

They're 22"H after a recent topping. One in the middle is Afghaani mix from Real Seeds, outside plants are the old Amsterdam 1990 Master Kush X Afghani 90 cross, again Real Seeds sourced.

View attachment 18948254



Well well, I did start and had/have the original. Did backcrosses 20 or so years ago, all germed couple of years ago and am growing backcrosses of the Original C99 I got from Ron (Heaven's Stairway) during that time. They are very stable....as they should be. Garden link is attached. We go way back PC.

BTW, I also have most of the PC drama, posts, etc. way back then LOL

Jan. 17, C99 and my CindyPeak cross I did is in the back, seeds germed weeks after the indicas. C99 X (C99 X Peak19)

View attachment 18948255

Best,
Uncle Ben

Heya UB! Good to see you around!

Do you know what you and I have in common? Neither of us has changed our avatars since 2002!

I can't believe you have all those prawn posts. Between you and Munchy, you must have the whole history of the internet on hard-drive! Haha!

I think the last genuine (Bros Grimm) C99 genetics I grew was original DTC99 . . . there have been quite a few C99 crosses under the bridge since then. But I think I liked the Genius (Apollo) crosses a bit more. C99 could produce a bit of a nasty high at times that would tighten the muscles in your jaw and make your ears ring. Potent stuff, but not the kindest. Used to be you could tell the differences between the Princess (C99 clone mother) and Genius offspring by the exaggerated stagger of the alternating nodes and serrations on the leaves. But that was a long time ago and I've forgotten a lot of stuff since then.

 

[Prawn Connery]

I switched to LED one year ago after decades of HID, I don't fully master the nuances between the different lightings but I'm really happy with the buds I'm harvesting. The smells and taste are much stronger with my new light and the high is a bit more punchy, I found myself much higher than expected a few times this past year. The yield is better but not as high as other growers can do, I think I need a few more runs before being to make huge yield.
I see there is some expert on LED here so maybe you could explain why there is so much more purple/red colors in the plants grown under LED compared to HID lights?

I'm going to be vain and assume this is for me

So funnily enough, the first answer you got was the right one, IMO. Lower temps that affect phosphorous and magnesium uptake. Not the only reason (a bit more explanation below), but one of the main ones due to a lack of radiated heat compared to HPS that slows transpiration.

Here is the same strain, grown at the same time, but one of the clones was moved to a colder tent that had less light (and warmth) because I didn't have room for it in the main tent at the time. These are quite old pix.

Here it is in the main tent

And here is the same strain that got a bit cold. You can see the plant trying to transpire by the up-curled leaves, exposing the stomata on the underside of the leaf. Being quite cold, it was also quite dry (low humidity).

There are other reasons why the same genetics may express purple hues, but it's important to make the distinction between nutrient lock-out purpling that affects chlorophyl production and anthocyanin stress pigments that are more of a red-pink hue than a purple-blue.

I see a lot of growers heavily defoliating their crops these days, and I suspect it is more prevalent under LED possibly because LED keeps plants a bit shorter, with tighter internodes and this exaggerates the leafiness of some strains, but also means a bit of defoliation may be required to allow more air-flow around the buds to prevent mould.

The defoliation argument is best left for another thread (I'm not a big subscriber to it – everything in moderation), but one thing it does is removes a lot of fan leaves that would otherwise be absorbing light and shading the main stems and petioles. The extra light has to go somewhere and it hits the stems which triggers a stress response that releases the pink-red pigment that reflects mainly red and blue light to prevent or reduce photo-oxidation of the stem cells because the stems and petiole have less chlorophyl and can't photosynthesise at the same rate as leaves (which is their main function, to absorb light energy).

Next time you see a heavily defoliated plant under intense LED, have a look at the main stems and you will likely see bright pinkish-red stripes that that may also affect the petioles, but not the leaves themselves (because they have enough chlorophyl to photosynthesise).

LEDs contain more blue light than HPS which will also trigger a stress response faster, because blue light (and violet and UVA) carry more energy with each photon.

While purpling is definitely genetic, what is actually being expressed is a nutrient lockout, so the genetics don't directly make the plant purple but rather make the plant more susceptible to purpling.

As to why it affects the tops of the plants first, they are the furthest away from the roots, and so last in line to get phosphorous when transpiration slows. When it gets to this stage, it's also because the plant doesn't have enough stored phosphorous to relocate it within.

 

[Prawn Connery]

Here's another example of the same strains being grown under the same LEDs but in different temperature conditions (and not quite enough PK towards the end, IMO). These are under about 2000W of our lights. Again, old photos from around early Covid times (2020).

 

[Bio boy]

Under led I have trichomes with balls still what’s all this about lol may take longer to ripen off but defo has the meds lol or wouldn’t be able to scope the ripeness ,, I think he fingered em too much page 1 and not so much when burnt fingers under the hps

 

[CharlesU Farley]

My old homemade 600 HPS ballast is for sale circa Oct. 1998. All it needs is a new cap. and you're good to go. This thing grew some serious plants back in the late 90's. I cut a 25' electric extension cord so I could keep some of the heat away from the garden. 8' or so went to the wall outlet, the rest went to the lamp fixture.

View attachment 18948272

Those were the days.

UB

I've been thinking of starting up a thread about all the lights people have used over the years they've been growing and if they've got pictures. Here's my first light, circa 1987:

I thought you were a MH guy back in the day?

 

[kro-magnon]

I'm going to be vain and assume this is for me

So funnily enough, the first answer you got was the right one, IMO. Lower temps that affect phosphorous and magnesium uptake. Not the only reason (a bit more explanation below), but one of the main ones due to a lack of radiated heat compared to HPS that slows transpiration.

Here is the same strain, grown at the same time, but one of the clones was moved to a colder tent that had less light (and warmth) because I didn't have room for it in the main tent at the time. These are quite old pix.

Here it is in the main tent
View attachment 18948351

View attachment 18948352

And here is the same strain that got a bit cold. You can see the plant trying to transpire by the up-curled leaves, exposing the stomata on the underside of the leaf. Being quite cold, it was also quite dry (low humidity).
View attachment 18948349

View attachment 18948348

View attachment 18948350


There are other reasons why the same genetics may express purple hues, but it's important to make the distinction between nutrient lock-out purpling that affects chlorophyl production and anthocyanin stress pigments that are more of a red-pink hue than a purple-blue.

I see a lot of growers heavily defoliating their crops these days, and I suspect it is more prevalent under LED possibly because LED keeps plants a bit shorter, with tighter internodes and this exaggerates the leafiness of some strains, but also means a bit of defoliation may be required to allow more air-flow around the buds to prevent mould.

The defoliation argument is best left for another thread (I'm not a big subscriber to it – everything in moderation), but one thing it does is removes a lot of fan leaves that would otherwise be absorbing light and shading the main stems and petioles. The extra light has to go somewhere and it hits the stems which triggers a stress response that releases the pink-red pigment that reflects mainly red and blue light to prevent or reduce photo-oxidation of the stem cells because the stems and petiole have less chlorophyl and can't photosynthesise at the same rate as leaves (which is their main function, to absorb light energy).

Next time you see a heavily defoliated plant under intense LED, have a look at the main stems and you will likely see bright pinkish-red stripes that that may also affect the petioles, but not the leaves themselves (because they have enough chlorophyl to photosynthesise).

LEDs contain more blue light than HPS which will also trigger a stress response faster, because blue light (and violet and UVA) carry more energy with each photon.

While purpling is definitely genetic, what is actually being expressed is a nutrient lockout, so the genetics don't directly make the plant purple but rather make the plant more susceptible to purpling.

As to why it affects the tops of the plants first, they are the furthest away from the roots, and so last in line to get phosphorous when transpiration slows. When it gets to this stage, it's also because the plant doesn't have enough stored phosphorous to relocate it within.

The question was aimed at you of course as you obviously know a lot about LED and biology. As you can see in the picture I have posted it was not cold at all for the whole grow so it is a nutrient lock-out you say who caused the purpling of the top leaves ?
It happened on the last weeks of the grow when I was giving only water to the plants.

 

[CannaT]

Here's another example of the same strains being grown under the same LEDs but in different temperature conditions (and not quite enough PK towards the end, IMO). These are under about 2000W of our lights. Again, old photos from around early Covid times (2020).

View attachment 18948432

View attachment 18948433

View attachment 18948434

View attachment 18948437

View attachment 18948435








View attachment 18948436

I found out over the years that every plant "knows" what her optimal conditions are.
Those are genetics and genes.While it grow during the life time,she will adopt itselef chasing desired conditions in envirmovent given.
While plants under led recive more human visible light they dont have enough IR...so leafs go in darker colour to catch more IR and to get higher temp cuz they need it.


Aboundance of heat we call cold...in fact its non existing term in reality that is different to every being on this earth and in universe.

Its all Darwinism so simple if you got it,constant evolution and adoption.
Also if you give to plants to much light they will change them to get optimal amount of light it wants.
The more far from optimal conditions the more far for life conditions...only the fittest survive and they can spread "better" genes.

 

[Crooked8]

I'm going to be vain and assume this is for me

So funnily enough, the first answer you got was the right one, IMO. Lower temps that affect phosphorous and magnesium uptake. Not the only reason (a bit more explanation below), but one of the main ones due to a lack of radiated heat compared to HPS that slows transpiration.

Here is the same strain, grown at the same time, but one of the clones was moved to a colder tent that had less light (and warmth) because I didn't have room for it in the main tent at the time. These are quite old pix.

Here it is in the main tent
View attachment 18948351

View attachment 18948352

And here is the same strain that got a bit cold. You can see the plant trying to transpire by the up-curled leaves, exposing the stomata on the underside of the leaf. Being quite cold, it was also quite dry (low humidity).
View attachment 18948349

View attachment 18948348

View attachment 18948350


There are other reasons why the same genetics may express purple hues, but it's important to make the distinction between nutrient lock-out purpling that affects chlorophyl production and anthocyanin stress pigments that are more of a red-pink hue than a purple-blue.

I see a lot of growers heavily defoliating their crops these days, and I suspect it is more prevalent under LED possibly because LED keeps plants a bit shorter, with tighter internodes and this exaggerates the leafiness of some strains, but also means a bit of defoliation may be required to allow more air-flow around the buds to prevent mould.

The defoliation argument is best left for another thread (I'm not a big subscriber to it – everything in moderation), but one thing it does is removes a lot of fan leaves that would otherwise be absorbing light and shading the main stems and petioles. The extra light has to go somewhere and it hits the stems which triggers a stress response that releases the pink-red pigment that reflects mainly red and blue light to prevent or reduce photo-oxidation of the stem cells because the stems and petiole have less chlorophyl and can't photosynthesise at the same rate as leaves (which is their main function, to absorb light energy).

Next time you see a heavily defoliated plant under intense LED, have a look at the main stems and you will likely see bright pinkish-red stripes that that may also affect the petioles, but not the leaves themselves (because they have enough chlorophyl to photosynthesise).

LEDs contain more blue light than HPS which will also trigger a stress response faster, because blue light (and violet and UVA) carry more energy with each photon.

While purpling is definitely genetic, what is actually being expressed is a nutrient lockout, so the genetics don't directly make the plant purple but rather make the plant more susceptible to purpling.

As to why it affects the tops of the plants first, they are the furthest away from the roots, and so last in line to get phosphorous when transpiration slows. When it gets to this stage, it's also because the plant doesn't have enough stored phosphorous to relocate it within.

@exoticrobotic as far as all the training/defol stuff goes that he mentions here im unsure if thats why, in bugbees course, they linked the increase in anthocyannin production to more blue light as @Prawn Connery mentions here.

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

Heya UB! Good to see you around!

Do you know what you and I have in common? Neither of us has changed our avatars since 2002!

I can't believe you have all those prawn posts. Between you and Munchy, you must have the whole history of the internet on hard-drive! Haha!

I think the last genuine (Bros Grimm) C99 genetics I grew was original DTC99 . . . there have been quite a few C99 crosses under the bridge since then. But I think I liked the Genius (Apollo) crosses a bit more. C99 could produce a bit of a nasty high at times that would tighten the muscles in your jaw and make your ears ring. Potent stuff, but not the kindest. Used to be you could tell the differences between the Princess (C99 clone mother) and Genius offspring by the exaggerated stagger of the alternating nodes and serrations on the leaves. But that was a long time ago and I've forgotten a lot of stuff since then.

Happy to see you too, glad you're still kicking. Viva our original avatars! This old age shit is not for pussies - been thru it all, bout with cancer, 2 lower lumbar surgeries, etc. Getting a MRI for a shoulder problem today, rotator cup. I digress....

I love to see nice green pot with plenty of healthy, productive leaves while flowering. Nice! Too many have been sucked into the PK blossom food crap. Flowering is a hormonal response, has nothing to do with plant nutrition. I've written dozens of post on this subject recently. https://www.icmag.com/threads/who-says-potassium-will-stimulate-flowering.18129623/ Neither K or P stimulate flower production. The only things such bloom foods stimulate is the vendor's bank account and forum noob talk. https://www.icmag.com/threads/when-do-you-p-k-boost.18129077/

Yep, I have some the old stuff about all of us, even Ron and a video of the bust by the RMCP. Damn, was that drama or what! Let's see if I can find one that is "appropriate" for old timey's sake LOL.

Here's an excerpt of one such correspondence with one of the OGer's. Gets too juicy so I cut it short.

>>>BOG and Rezdog have formed an "alliance".

Of course, they both flog total shite and they both know nothing about plants period. It's all bullshit and they get the newbies. That's their target clientel.

>>>Who is this guy, "Plural of Mongoose"? What's his story?

POM (as he is known) used to be NAG. NAG was NotAGrower. NAG had a grow room catch fire, because the building next to his (where his grow room was) went up too. Yep, both buildings. Bad luck caper. He decided to run to Amsterdam, rather than go down for a charred up grow the LEO found in the remains of a double building blaze. He's on the run forever from Uncle Sam. So he re-invented himself as POM in Amsterdam and quickly set himself up as the cyber IT sort for Gypsy. He is after all IT trained, as per his past career when he was in the US.

Now there was a time too, when ~S was in hiatus, where POM was going to make for Gypsy a new Overgrow-like-site. It neve r came to be, as ~S returned and with that, Gypsy's old fued with arch-rival RC was settled by ~S. But it was on the cards. It came close. .....

I bought 10 seeds from Ron, grew them all out over a 2 year period and one male just busted the stable paradigm, totally sucked. It had the longest internodes I've ever seen on any plant. I posted it at the Bros Grimm Help Desk and Soul went ballistic! Blasphemy! All in all, it is good genetics. Here's some OLD pix of Cinderella ladies. You may remember some of these. Circa 2001.

Even did a reveg on this one. Got to have some leaves left. Try convincing the Generation X Defoliation Kids.

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

I've been thinking of starting up a thread about all the lights people have used over the years they've been growing and if they've got pictures. Here's my first light, circa 1987:

View attachment 18948441


I thought you were a MH guy back in the day?

Wow, were you heating Tomato soup with that rig?

Yeah, few years after using a self contained 250 HPS for my first closet grows I bought the 600HPS and then a MH. I would start the garden with a 400MH and add in the 600HPS a couple of weeks post germination. I had moveable side reflecting panels that were always adjusted so they were close to the plants for maximum reflection.

Here's my old 600HPS rig. Was a Diamond Lights which had a white interior. I added the specular inserts using metal shears to cut the material and a rivet gun to fasten it. Worked great.

I still have the HPS. Sold the MH years ago.

 

[exoticrobotic]

@exoticrobotic as far as all the training/defol stuff goes that he mentions here im unsure if thats why, in bugbees course, they linked the increase in anthocyannin production to more blue light as @Prawn Connery mentions here.

spectrum avoidance

@Crooked8 so when i said spectrum avoidance i was wrong?

Oh come on, thats your reasoning for increased anthocyanin production? With love and respect, please research this more.

Get back up bugbees ass bro

with love and respect...