Lacto Bacilli: process and discussion

[jaykush]

Cool. It's actually really neat to watch. Because the fermentation is greatly increased one can watch a cascade of gaseous bubbles striving to reach the surface...it's pretty amazing how fast they move and how many their are. It really reminds me opening up a shaken soda can (but without getting soda everywhere )

i know those bubbles, good to know.

FWIW, I use the volume/speed of gaseous bubble flow as a major indicator for when I should test the pH. Once the 'flow', speed and quantity of gaseous bubbles slow to a crawl I check the pH. By that point it is usually below pH 3.5-4.0. When using fermented LAB as long as the pH is <4.0 it's fine to use; but below pH 3.5 is better, and for probiotics AEM below pH 3.3 is saftest.

i have never checked the ph, i have done it a few hundred times now i guess i just have a feel for it.

I also use it to remove foul odors, ex. for piles of 'leftover' BSFL (black solider fly larvae) 'castings' (undigested food stuffs), they are very musky.

the LAB culture is excellent at removing the smell of piss/poop. i use it to rid the smell of manure smell in my chicken pen, and give it a good head start for composting. my bsf castings never really smell bad, cant say they have a smell at all really. just earthy.

 

[JackTheGrower]

No prob.


Mostly to ensil wet spent brewers grains for use in my compost operation. That way I can store the WSBG without it spoiling. I have used LAB to ensil coffee grounds too, and straw. "Ensil" and "ensiling" is the same process (basically) as using bokashi inoculum to ferment food stuffs. The final 'stable' fermented product is called "silage". I prefer using the English terms and methods because they are better studied, and described, at least in English. For example, I have never read of anyone suggesting what % moisture content must be attained for the food stuffs to properly ferment without spoiling...45-60% moisture content, with 50-55% being ideal. Too much % moisture content and there is way too much runoff and loss of nutrients, and if too high the LAB and not do their work. Too low of % moisture content and the LAB can't do their work either.

I also use it to remove foul odors, ex. for piles of 'leftover' BSFL (black solider fly larvae) 'castings' (undigested food stuffs), they are very musky.

HTH

Doing the deed.

all intrigue ,

 

[JackTheGrower]

In your opinion GD what would you get if you openly bubbled the rice water? open top aerobic environment?

Myself a novice; each culture is unique.

 

[GeneticHeirloom]

MMM my Rice bran wash smells like parmesan cheese. Still have detritus at the bottom but most of it's at the top. I'll be adding milk today.

 

[rrog]

Mine's a light yellow. I added small amount of molasses and still cooking at 90. See what happens today. Then I'll refrigerate.

I'll start another batch of rice water also. May as well perfect my skills. Cheap enough. Also, I'm moving temp to 100F and getting mineral oil.

Collect airborne bacterial samples with the jar of rice water on the floor for a couple hours.

Add mineral oil and place at 100F for a couple days.

Shake ocassionally and wait for really sour smell / no bubbles.

Strain off liquid and add to milk.

Back in at 100F until solids separate.

 

[ganja din]

Mine's a light yellow. I added small amount of molasses and still cooking at 90. See what happens today. Then I'll refrigerate.

I'll start another batch of rice water also. May as well perfect my skills. Cheap enough. Also, I'm moving temp to 100F and getting mineral oil.

Collect airborne bacterial samples with the jar of rice water on the floor for a couple hours.

Add mineral oil and place at 100F for a couple days.

Shake ocassionally and wait for really sour smell / no bubbles.

Strain off liquid and add to milk.

Back in at 100F until solids separate.

You have things a bit mixed up. I think I may have confused you a little bit.

You do want to put the rice wash on the floor for a few hours. And heating the rice wash might be useful but I don't do it. At that point we are not trying to culture anything, just collect microbes. Don't add molasses here.

Once you siphon off the rice wash, you then add organic skim milk, or better yet, fresh unpasteurized organic milk. One could also just add lactic acid. The point of this step is to 'isolate' the LAB by creating an environment hostile to (most) all microbes but LAB. Don't add molasses here.

Once you have your "LAB serum" ^^^, you will ferment it into "LAB pure culture". This is the time to heat the solution and add molasses. A ratio of LAB serum:molasses:water of 1:1:20 is fine, but I use 1:0.8:16 on occasion. Ideally, one wants to achieve about 8% molasses to water. This is the step in which you add the mineral oil. The mineral oil not only keeps it more anaerobic, but it helps prevent other microbes from entering the tasty mix of molasses and water . I also place a piece of tyvek over the mouth of the container during this time for 'extra' protection in the first day or two.

I made a typo before, tyvek pore size is <0.3 micron.

HTH

 

[GeneticHeirloom]

So if I were able to go get milk straight out of a cow's utter it would be worth the travel?

Since milk by law has to be pasteurized here I could go to my old neighbours dairy farm and grab milk straight from the utter... Would this potentially be even better than the organic skim milk for bacteria count/proper Lactose?

 

[rrog]

Thanks for taking the time here GD. I'd like to understand this thoroughly so I hope you don't mind.

The rice wash on the floor was to collect airborne "<2 feet from floor". No heat, no Molasses. I think we're on the same page with this part.

You don't let the rice wash amplify the background bacteria? That's a big time saver. The assumption is that the rice wash keeps things alive during collection, but then milk is added after a 2 hour collection period?

You let the milk solids separate after a couple days? No heat during milk process? Loose lid or fabric top to allow burp?

Then separate off the yellowish serum, add molasses, mineral oil and heat. Cover with tyvek additionally. For how long?

Thanks again.

 

[jaykush]

see this is why its best to just stick to the simple instructions. and do that for a few times until you get the hang of it( it shouldn't take long at all). THEN start adding things like the mineral oil ( not needed but helps i guess) getting into specific ratios( helps but also not needed), and things like that. this method is VERY forgiving, cost little to nothing to make, and helps people break the "all anaerobic = bad" way of thinking thinking. so just follow the instructions anyone who reads this and is confused.

i made the instructions as clear as possible, most were having problems with the article gil wrote so i put it in stoner terms.

 

[ganja din]

So if I were able to go get milk straight out of a cow's utter it would be worth the travel?

Since milk by law has to be pasteurized here I could go to my old neighbours dairy farm and grab milk straight from the utter... Would this potentially be even better than the organic skim milk for bacteria count/proper Lactose?

Yes. But only if you don't have to drive for a long time I guess. Any milk should work, but organic skim milk is suggested by Gil's teacher, and I find it 'works' best out of other pasteurized milks. But I would use raw milk any day of the week if I had constant access to it.

 

[jaykush]

The rice wash on the floor was to collect airborne "<2 feet from floor". No heat, no Molasses. I think we're on the same page with this part.

yes, at this point your attracting the microbes from the air, which include lactic acid bacteria (LAB) the rice wash itself is all you need to get them in the liquid.

You don't let the rice wash amplify the background bacteria? That's a big time saver. The assumption is that the rice wash keeps things alive during collection, but then milk is added after a 2 hour collection period?

let the rice wash sit longer than 2 hours, you want a good diverse collection. this is one step that can not be rushed imo. just wait a few days, you wait a few months to grow pot.

You let the milk solids separate after a couple days? No heat during milk process? Loose lid or fabric top to allow burp?

yes the milk like GD said, favors the LAB. they process the milk and you get the cheese curd stuff. you can have a loose lid, fabric, doesnt matter really. you dont want it to be cold thats where the week part comes in. some warmth helps.

Then separate off the yellowish serum, add molasses, mineral oil and heat. Cover with tyvek additionally. For how long?

at this point you take out the cheese crap(feed it to your worms, or compost pile), then you have your pure culture. you can either store it in the fridge as is, OR give them molasses to keep alive at room temp. you can dilute and apply at this point. the mineral oil seems like it is to keep your stored culture anaerobic, is that right GD? i dont use it and everything works GREAT. i just make enough to use for a week. depending on how you grow you really dont need a lot of this. if you ferment a lot of things then you might need more.

 

[ganja din]

Thanks for taking the time here GD. I'd like to understand this thoroughly so I hope you don't mind.

NP.

The rice wash on the floor was to collect airborne "<2 feet from floor". No heat, no Molasses. I think we're on the same page with this part.

Yes. However, neither will hurt, but the rice wash is the 'food' and heat is not really necessary yet.

You don't let the rice wash amplify the background bacteria? That's a big time saver. The assumption is that the rice wash keeps things alive during collection, but then milk is added after a 2 hour collection period?

Not sure what you mean by "amplify". Basically I use the method Jaykush suggests, the original by Gil's teacher, but during the 'collection' phase, place the jar on the floor for a bit, or for the whole collection phase. I usually let my rice wash sit a few days or more. Placing the jar at ground level, or outside under healthy trees should possibly increase the variety and quantity of microbes 'collected'.

You let the milk solids separate after a couple days? No heat during milk process? Loose lid or fabric top to allow burp?

Use the same process that Jaykush has laid out in terms of the 'milk' step, he did a good job. Heat is not required, nor suggested in this phase. I like to limit the microbes which can 'find' the milk/rice wash jar. So I cover it with "tyvek". I wrote about tyvek on page 17 or 18. You can get it free at a UPS store, etc, as tyvek envoples. Or buy a tyvek painters suit for $10 from Home Depot/Lowes. Ther is a pic someone posted of kleenex covered mason jar. Do the same, but use tyvek. The pore size of tyvek is <0.3 micron so it allows gases to pass, but not microbes.

Then separate off the yellowish serum, add molasses, mineral oil and heat. Cover with tyvek additionally. For how long?

You got it! But, don't forget the water! A ratio of 1:1:20 (LAB serum:molasses:water) is what Gil's teacher suggests and what Dr. Higa suggests for fermenting EM into AEM. One can get fancier, but that ratio works well.

If using tap water make sure there is no chlorine, and especially "chloramines". Adding a pinch of ascorbic acid will remove chloramines and chlorine. You can get ascorbic acid at any beer/wine brewing shop.

Like I mentioned to Jaykush, you should see a very fast moving cascade of bubbles going for the surface during the first few days to a week or so. That is the most active fermentation period where the LAB are multiplying and the DO is getting used up.

I check the pH of my LAB pure culture (ie. the LAB serum mixed with water and molasses) once the flow of bubbles slows a bit. Once the pH is below 4.0 the LAB pure culture is considered "stable", that is, the pH is so low other microbes can not survive. However, below a pH of 3.4 is highly suggested, to be sure you have a monoculture of LAB. If fermenting for probiotics for animals, let the pH drop to 3.3 or lower.

Once the pH drops below 3.4 let the solution continue to ferment for at least another week. This allows time for the pH to effect the non LAB microbes. For probiotics, I would follow MM's suggestion and let it ferment for 3-4 weeks past the initial pH drop to 3.3.

Thanks again.

Your welcome. What I am suggesting is not a 'new' method, just a tweak here and there to the method Gil teaches, which he learned from his teacher...which is the same method Jaykush laid out so well.

In the end, using the original method, or my tweaks, you will end up with useful LAB pure culture. I just think my tweaks make a 'better' final product...and I like watching the cascade of bubbles!

 

[ganja din]

at this point you take out the cheese crap(feed it to your worms, or compost pile), then you have your pure culture.

Humm. Are you sure? I thought that was the "serum" and the "pure culture" was the fermented molasses/water mix. Am I mixed up?

you can either store it in the fridge as is, OR give them molasses to keep alive at room temp.

Yup. However, the time frame the LAB serum stays 'good' is not defined. I know I let some sit for 6 months at a low cold setting in the refrigerator, and even after 6 months the LAB seemed to ferment well.

the mineral oil seems like it is to keep your stored culture anaerobic, is that right GD?

Yes, if you mean the pure culture of molasses/water mix. The mineral oil is also for the active 'fermenting' stage when mixing LAB serum with molasses and water to 'culture'. The LAB serum is the 'isolate' of LAB. The mineral oil is an old trick from microbiologists.

i dont use it and everything works GREAT.

Yup, what I'm suggesting isn't needed, but I think it's worthwhile.

Thanks!

 

[rrog]

Excellent write-up. During the rice wash collection phase you are leaving top off, right? So no top for a few days.

 

[JackTheGrower]

A Testament to simplicity.

Took white rice.. Soaked in a bowl with three inches of tap water over the top.

Had a tall plastic jug with a three four inch radius and lid. Put that in an area where the heat was provided by a 1k ballast and a 500watt ballast with no real air flow and the lid was off..

I drained the rice from the water and honestly it looked cloudy but nothing more.
Seven days later it had scum that looked like some sort of bran skin floating on the waters surface. I kid you not.
So I added milk and let it go three days.. Got cheese.. Dumped it in my main brew.. The stink on skin went down.

So ... What is it's purpose? Dono..

It's easy to make tho!

 

[GeneticHeirloom]

Yes. But only if you don't have to drive for a long time I guess. Any milk should work, but organic skim milk is suggested by Gil's teacher, and I find it 'works' best out of other pasteurized milks. But I would use raw milk any day of the week if I had constant access to it.

Awesome. I'm getting myself real milk straight from the utter!

 

[ganja din]

Excellent write-up. During the rice wash collection phase you are leaving top off, right? So no top for a few days.

yea.

 

[jaykush]

Humm. Are you sure? I thought that was the "serum" and the "pure culture" was the fermented molasses/water mix. Am I mixed up?

well i think it depends on what your using it for. i try to use it fresh and not have any stored( even though i have stored some for over 6 months checked it with a mircoscope and still saw life). i always thought of the molasses as a food source to keep them going after you have selected them in the "Serum" if you want to store it. in my case they go into the soil, compost, plant extracts, etc... which already have a food source for the LAB or they get to work on whatever they love to do.

Excellent write-up. During the rice wash collection phase you are leaving top off, right? So no top for a few days.

you can do lid on or off, the key being air to rice was contact, if you put the lid on, make sure there is at least 50% air in the jar. i sometimes leave it off and put it outside under a tree like GD said. works good.

 

[rrog]

Not sure what you mean by "amplify".

That's a term used in work with DNA and RNA. "To increase the number of copies." I thought the term carried over for anything we're increasing the quantity of, like our LAB friends. But it doesn't.

I like the idea of leaving the top off the jar as we're collecting.

 

[dubite]

Damn that serum smells NASTY!! But does the trick!!
Thanks jaykush for saving the plants.
Blessed love.