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jamaican "lambsbread"
- Thread starter jahgreenlabel
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Eltitoguay
Well-known member
In that case, and if Wikipedia's data about Jamaica is correct (between 1850 and 1869), in present-day Mexico (then the region of New Spain) large-scale cultivation began around 1522 or so... And a decade later, Emperor Charles I of Spain and V of Germany, gave the imperial blessing to that order to initiate and propagate the cultivation that Hernán Cortés entrusted to Pedro Cuadrado de Alacalá, and made it extendable to the entire part of Spanish America: which included and affected present-day Colombia, (then the region of New Granada), where Spaniards founded the city of Santa Marta in 1525...And also to current Jamaica (then Xaymaca Island or Santiago Island; New Seville-Santa Gloria-St. Anne was founded in 1509, and Santiago de la Vega-St. Jago de la Vega- Spanish Town, in 1520), which was not conquered by the British until 1660.
Of course, the genetics from India (genetics that Spain initially took from Portugal) that the Spanish initially introduced to America, could coincide with the ones imported more than three centuries later in British Jamaica.
Anyway, I have read several times that in Spanish America, after the incorporation of the Philippines into the Empire, it was from there that new cannabis genetics were imported, different from that of India shared with the Portuguese. But you have to look for the official texts in the Archive of the Indies in Seville to be able to support this with historical sources.
Of course, the genetics from India (genetics that Spain initially took from Portugal) that the Spanish initially introduced to America, could coincide with the ones imported more than three centuries later in British Jamaica.
Anyway, I have read several times that in Spanish America, after the incorporation of the Philippines into the Empire, it was from there that new cannabis genetics were imported, different from that of India shared with the Portuguese. But you have to look for the official texts in the Archive of the Indies in Seville to be able to support this with historical sources.
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Common ancestor is Pure Sativa and the flowering times over 18/20 weeks confims the statement.
America has known NLDA since much longer than modern 19th or 15th and Spain has nothing to do with NLDA because they only imported NLH in America like North European did it in North America thousand years before.
The real dispersal of NLDA is antique, proto- and pre- historic and coming from Austronesian move in Pacific Ocean to the big Central America including Mexico and Colombia. That said not sure that the Caribbean has known NLDA before the modern era imho, I think it appeared there in Jam only since the 19th from South Indian banana workers migration.
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Eltitoguay
Well-known member
(Yes, there are proven pre-Hispanic contacts)... However, this does not correspond to the historical evidence that all the American peoples with whom the Spanish contacted, from Tierra del Fuego to Alaska, were totally unaware of cannabis. As for cannabis from India, the Moluccan Islands, Micronesia, Melanesia and Polynesia, from the Portuguese/Spanish possessions there, it would be surprising if they were not what we consider a long-flowering sativa. Portuguese and Spanish planted this type of varieties in Madeira and the Canary Islands...why would it be different in America? And more so in the Spanish case, where it is well known that for the new Spanish Crown, the process of conquest and previous colonization of the Guanche chiefdoms of the Canary Islands, should be the example and plan to follow in the American one.
As for the variety you mention, "Pure Sativa" (?), it is the first time I have read it (except as a commercial name for some contemporary variety).
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Wrong statement, Spanish/Church brainwash!
Cannabis/Hemp traces in pipes and American pollen datas evidences before the year 1000.
Chris Duvall wrote this in his book Cannabis;
Indentured Sierra Leoneans introduced marijuana to Jamaica by 1862. Afro-Caribbean
labourers carried Cannabis to Central America in the late 1800s.
Indentured Sierra Leoneans introduced marijuana to Jamaica by 1862. Afro-Caribbean
labourers carried Cannabis to Central America in the late 1800s.
NLH?
Hemp growing did not very well in big parts of Africa. Only the cooler parts of South-Africa would do, although havent read any documents about it.
BC LONE WOLF
Well-known member
Very passionate disccusions on how Cannabis arrived to the Caribean.
Here is a little info I found on the Slave trade done from Africa to the Americas, let us remember how cannabis arrived to us, hundreds of years of suffering and slave labor, making this master plant sacred as it was used for the healing of the peoples.
jamaicagreathouses.com
Here is a little info I found on the Slave trade done from Africa to the Americas, let us remember how cannabis arrived to us, hundreds of years of suffering and slave labor, making this master plant sacred as it was used for the healing of the peoples.
Jamaica Plantation Era, Abolition of Slavery
The slave trade had been abolished in 1807 but it took another 26 years to effect the emancipation of the enslaved.
Eltitoguay
Well-known member
Your first sentence is as stupid in this context of historical discussion as it is contrary to your argument: Both the Church and the Crown of that time were not interested in it being known that they had introduced a new psychoactive substance among their new American subjects, when the The official argument is that they were being saved from all their customs and vices contrary to Catholic ideology... But nevertheless, everything was recorded, including the complaints of the Church, because the natives (and the Spaniards too) became intoxicated with the flowers of the plants that were supposed to be used to equip the naval fleet of the Crown.Wrong statement, Spanish/Church brainwash!
Cannabis/Hemp traces in pipes and American pollen datas evidences before the year 1000.
As for the evidence you proclaim...won't it be an article on Viking settlements in northeastern North America, which ended up being inconclusive? Link it if it is a different one, please.
Postscript: Be careful, although there is incontestable historical evidence of the introduction of long-flowering psychoactive cannabis in America by the Spanish and Portuguese very soon after their conquest, I cannot assure that this genetics reached the most famous American sativa landraces that we now know. But surely your supposed plants introduced long before from the Pacific, or what could have been left by that supposed evidence that you cite later, were not: because no one, including the extensive botanical explorations that can be consulted, ever saw a cannabis plant in America that did not was later introduced to the order of Hernán Cortes.
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Eltitoguay
Well-known member
Another evidence, but in the case of America, that this cannabis was psychoactive and not a little, is that the different native peoples of current Mexico, who had one of the richest and most powerful traditions and psychoactive plants of Humanity, liked and considered psychoactive that cannabis from official plantations. And also (as they did not have a word to name a plant that they did not know, despite Roms statements) they created a new one in Nahuált (which would pass into Spanish, since the pronunciation of the name in Nahuált sounds phonetically and is graphically transcribed in Spanish as " marinhuah"-"marinhuana") to name it, while describing it: "mallinhua"-"mallinhuana"; "malli", curling grass or weaving grass and "hua-huana" which is associated with "tlahuani" and therefore with "drunk" and "altered in mind, body and/or perception... There is a slight revenge and poetic mockery (surely not intended and coincidence...but fun): "with the herbs destined to weave sails and ropes for the Emperor's ships, we get drunk"...
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@Eltitoguay Just read this thread from the start, historical links were already posted multiple times years ago. Cannabis culture in America and Mexico existed long before the arrival of the Spanish cultural killers. And all NLDA traces and culture have been erased by the Church, like genocide in all sense cannabis included. But far in mountains and country lands the cultural resistance is stronger, big up for all of them from Mexico to Colombia and Chile.
@BC LONE WOLF @mexcurandero420 thinking that Afro slaves imported NLD seeds is so naive, really impossible for them. All imports from Africa must be with some NLH introduced by colonizers and slavers.
@BC LONE WOLF @mexcurandero420 thinking that Afro slaves imported NLD seeds is so naive, really impossible for them. All imports from Africa must be with some NLH introduced by colonizers and slavers.
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albertgriffiths
Well-known member
I'm patiently reading the whole thread, and all these questions have already been discussed multiple times, with no solid conclusions in my opinion... just a lot of interesting hypothesis.
I'm not going to comment on the topic of cannabis before Colón, as I rekon I know nothing.
But for more recent years, the Indian origins of Lambsbread seem a solid hypothesis to me.
Then there are lot of people suggesting Mexican/Colombian hybridization in the early 20th century.
I'm surprized not to see the Panamean hypothesis being defended more often.
LOTS of jamaicans emigrated to Panamá as workers on the Canal project. Lots of them came back after the canal was finished.
I could totally imagine them coming back home with a few seeds...
Just my 2 cents
I'm not going to comment on the topic of cannabis before Colón, as I rekon I know nothing.
But for more recent years, the Indian origins of Lambsbread seem a solid hypothesis to me.
Then there are lot of people suggesting Mexican/Colombian hybridization in the early 20th century.
I'm surprized not to see the Panamean hypothesis being defended more often.
LOTS of jamaicans emigrated to Panamá as workers on the Canal project. Lots of them came back after the canal was finished.
I could totally imagine them coming back home with a few seeds...
Just my 2 cents
BC LONE WOLF
Well-known member
We can’t be 100% on what genotypes they used but they used cannabis for sure. Hemp varieties could have well been coming in the same boat with the collies to pick up Africans on the way to the America’s. Could have been African bush weed, with collies weed mix as well with hemp for trade?
None of us were there, so we can’t testify. Landraces in the Caribbean could well be old hemp varieties that adapted to the intense equatorial light and the wet tropical environment, and fertile soil.
I was under the naive impression that everything originated in Africa and was shifted to many places. But then again Asia has its own secluded history of cannabis, nothing to do with Africa. But no slaves were shipped to Asia.
I’m no expert on cannabis history, but blindly believe that much of what the Caribbean has in terms of ancestry and culture is deeply rooted with Africa and the slave trade.
EDIT; for me the idea of hemp coming from India and psychoactive and/or pshychedelic cannabis coming from Africa fits somewhat better in the puzzle. I based it on the textile by product of hemp and India is renowed for the textile the produce for centuries. Bengal being the epicenter for Cotton production and trade. Sadly the history doesnt account for hemp. Not much on hemp in Africa during colonial domination.
A brief cultural history of hemp
Whether the Chinese emperor, the prophet Moses or the US founding fathers: the hemp plant was part of people's everyday lives for millennia — and not just as an intoxicant.
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Over the next centuries, drug-type Cannabis traveled to various world regions, including Africa (13th century) and Latin America (16th century), progressively reaching North America at the beginning of the 20th century and later, in the 1970s, from the Indian subcontinent. Meanwhile, hemp-type cultivars were first brought to the New World by early European colonists during the 17th century and later replaced in North America by Chinese hemp landraces by the middle 1800s. Consistent with this history, our model shows a gradual increase in the Ne of hemp and drug types. On the basis of both demographic and phylogenetic analyses, we propose that early domesticated Cannabis was first used as a primarily multipurpose crop until ~4000 years B.P., before undergoing strong divergent selection for increased fiber or drug production.
this genomic exploration kinda puts the nail on the coffin for any purported cannabis found in latin america, as the genetics show that it came to the caribbean and america through Europe....
BC LONE WOLF
Well-known member
Taíno: Indigenous Caribbeans
The Taíno were an Arawak people who were the indigenous people of the Caribbean and Florida. At the time of European contact in the late 15th century,
www.blackhistorymonth.org.uk
"The Taíno were an Arawak people who were the indigenous people of the Caribbean and Florida. At the time of European contact in the late 15th century, they were the principal inhabitants of most of Cuba, Jamaica, Hispaniola (the Dominican Republic and Haiti), and Puerto Rico.
In the Greater Antilles, the northern Lesser Antilles, and the Bahamas, they were known as the Lucayans and spoke the Taíno language, a derivative of the the Arawakan languages.
The ancestors of the Taíno entered the Caribbean from South America. At the time of contact, the Taíno were divided into three broad groups, known as the Western Taíno (Jamaica, most of Cuba, and the Bahamas), the Classic Taíno (Hispaniola and Puerto Rico) and the Eastern Taíno (northern Lesser Antilles). A fourth, lesser known group went on to travel to Florida and divided into tribes. At present, we know there are four named tribes; the Tequesta, Calusa, Jaega and Ais. Other tribes are known to have settled in Florida, but their names are not known.
At the time of Columbus’ arrival in 1492, there were five Taíno chiefdoms and territories on Hispaniola, each led by a principal Cacique (chieftain), to whom tribute was paid. Ayiti (“land of high mountains”) was the indigenous Taíno name for the mountainous side of the island of Hispaniola, which has retained its name as Haïti in French."
Let's allow us to assume that these Caribes natives (vastly coming from northen of South America, Amazon not the Andes) had their own narrow leaf variety, as its impossible that broad leaf varieties ever set foot in the Americas (at this time).
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My point is; We know around what time the "Indian hemp" came to the Americas and Caribe.
What we dont know is the Natives peoples side of the story, as data shows most of the "history" on the Americas is colonial based. Its naive to think that a place like the Amazon would not have its own genotype of Cannabis coming from Asia dating back to the peoples crossing the Bering Strait, later settelling everywhere North, Central and South.
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