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jamaican "lambsbread"

Normannen

Anne enn Normal
Veteran

"The Taíno were an Arawak people who were the indigenous people of the Caribbean and Florida. At the time of European contact in the late 15th century, they were the principal inhabitants of most of Cuba, Jamaica, Hispaniola (the Dominican Republic and Haiti), and Puerto Rico.

In the Greater Antilles, the northern Lesser Antilles, and the Bahamas, they were known as the Lucayans and spoke the Taíno language, a derivative of the the Arawakan languages.

The ancestors of the Taíno entered the Caribbean from South America. At the time of contact, the Taíno were divided into three broad groups, known as the Western Taíno (Jamaica, most of Cuba, and the Bahamas), the Classic Taíno (Hispaniola and Puerto Rico) and the Eastern Taíno (northern Lesser Antilles). A fourth, lesser known group went on to travel to Florida and divided into tribes. At present, we know there are four named tribes; the Tequesta, Calusa, Jaega and Ais. Other tribes are known to have settled in Florida, but their names are not known.

At the time of Columbus’ arrival in 1492, there were five Taíno chiefdoms and territories on Hispaniola, each led by a principal Cacique (chieftain), to whom tribute was paid. Ayiti (“land of high mountains”) was the indigenous Taíno name for the mountainous side of the island of Hispaniola, which has retained its name as Haïti in French."


Let's allow us to assume that these Caribes natives (vastly coming from northen of South America, Amazon not the Andes) had their own narrow leaf variety, as its impossible that broad leaf varieties ever set foot in the Americas (at this time).

Edit:
My point is; We know around what time the "Indian hemp" came to the Americas and Caribe.

What we dont know is the Natives peoples side of the story, as data shows most of the "history" on the Americas is colonial based. Its naive to think that a place like the Amazon would not have its own genotype of Cannabis coming from Asia dating back to the peoples crossing the Bering Strait, later settelling everywhere North, Central and South.
We know because the germplasm hasn't had time to develop markers that are distant enough to support that hypothesis. Chances are that hemp was brought with. But there is no hemp chordage culture that developed. And the current drug type germplasm is Asian with a westward distribution. (the following is a joke, don't quote me: it's why they called it journey to the west, not to the east :p).
 

Marcus67

Active member
Yes Ww, pure sat simply, i noted 16/20 weeks but Green pheno can go 24+ ^^


I think "Coolie" means pure sat and from South East Asia, both Jam and Colombian have the same NLD ancestor.
The longer, the better (if it's possible to request specific seeds at the time of ordering). I look forward to grabbing your Bushman JLB (along with otherb strains). In the meantime, these are the Richard Williams ones . Not sure if it's Jamaican Blue Mountain 1985 or the Bushman/Vibes line. The tiny young plant for comparison is Apollo 11 x Nepalese Jam with similar leaf width
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Marcus67

Active member
And, what would be the common ancestor, and how can such a statement be confirmed? And in what time and circumstances would such a common ancestor have arrived in America?
Kind regards.
There is nothing funner for nerds like me to take advantage of all the old newspapers that are being scanned as we speak and do google-like searches with key words like "Ganja" and "Jamaica". This has only recently become possible. Selling ganja aka Indian Hemp (drug type despite the name) to the Coolies was big business, not nearly as big as Opium to China, but impressive nonetheless.
 

Eltitoguay

Well-known member

Over the next centuries, drug-type Cannabis traveled to various world regions, including Africa (13th century) and Latin America (16th century), progressively reaching North America at the beginning of the 20th century and later, in the 1970s, from the Indian subcontinent. Meanwhile, hemp-type cultivars were first brought to the New World by early European colonists during the 17th century and later replaced in North America by Chinese hemp landraces by the middle 1800s. Consistent with this history, our model shows a gradual increase in the Ne of hemp and drug types. On the basis of both demographic and phylogenetic analyses, we propose that early domesticated Cannabis was first used as a primarily multipurpose crop until ~4000 years B.P., before undergoing strong divergent selection for increased fiber or drug production.

this genomic exploration kinda puts the nail on the coffin for any purported cannabis found in latin america, as the genetics show that it came to the caribbean and america through Europe....
👏
Damn it, Normando: this is a scientific study that seems really serious, and that once again throws away the numerous "historical links" that our host has accumulated in this thread for years and pages... Are you sure that you and the studio scientists are not secret agents of the medieval Inquisition? He he... Well, with the excellent study that Normando has been kind enough to connect us with, everything has already been said about our host speculations.

With it, say goodbye to this discussion. See you all in the bars, as they say here.
 

Normannen

Anne enn Normal
Veteran
👏
Damn it, Normando: this is a scientific study that seems really serious, and that once again throws away the numerous "historical links" that our host has accumulated in this thread for years and pages... Are you sure that you and the studio scientists are not secret agents of the medieval Inquisition? He he... Well, with the excellent study that Normando has been kind enough to connect us with, everything has already been said about our host speculations.

With it, say goodbye to this discussion. See you all in the bars, as they say here.
https://i.imgur.com/JnOgHRe.gif
 

mexcurandero420

See the world through a puff of smoke
Veteran
@BC LONE WOLF @mexcurandero420 thinking that Afro slaves imported NLD seeds is so naive, really impossible for them. All imports from Africa must be with some NLH introduced by colonizers and slavers.
There are some documents about it, also described in the book of Chris Duvall, so it isn't just speculation.
The first drug type genetics were from Angola and Congo that entered South-America (Brasil).

In 1753 the Dutch supplied the Khoisan tribe with drugs (probably Cannabis).

The Arabs were also responsible for the introduction of Cannabis into parts of Africa. The Arabs were in the slave trade for 10 centuries in Africa.
 

BC LONE WOLF

Well-known member
I have another great question; perhaps somewhat irritating but nonetheless important;

For anyone with factual details, at what point of the preservation process (from Bushman collection of seeds to the first f1 to the last f8) was the seeds or cut obtain by Swami from the Vibes?

My intention is not to start a battle of cursing Swami for not respecting the community rules on not selling Lambs bread in its “pure form”.

I want to know where I am with these ones. I can trace Roms took his line around f4 (please correct if I’m wrong). But Roms has stated the vibes collective LB split around f3/f4 him doing his selection on a purple red fruity mom. Other member doing other IBL projects with green phenos…

There is also a f8 being done on the other forum OG… so many lines bring back to the vibes collective LB.

I would like to know what is that in preserving f3, f4 ? Y’all know Swami he got no description on any of his seeds.

Thanks in advance.
 

Wwbsox

Active member
I have another great question; perhaps somewhat irritating but nonetheless important;

For anyone with factual details, at what point of the preservation process (from Bushman collection of seeds to the first f1 to the last f8) was the seeds or cut obtain by Swami from the Vibes?

My intention is not to start a battle of cursing Swami for not respecting the community rules on not selling Lambs bread in its “pure form”.

I want to know where I am with these ones. I can trace Roms took his line around f4 (please correct if I’m wrong). But Roms has stated the vibes collective LB split around f3/f4 him doing his selection on a purple red fruity mom. Other member doing other IBL projects with green phenos…

There is also a f8 being done on the other forum OG… so many lines bring back to the vibes collective LB.

I would like to know what is that in preserving f3, f4 ? Y’all know Swami he got no description on any of his seeds.

Thanks in advance.
Hi BC.

I saw a thread on OG (I believe) that Roms stated that Swami’s Lambsbread seeds were F5 of the Vibes genetics. Please, correct me if I am wrong.
 

BC LONE WOLF

Well-known member
Hi BC.

I saw a thread on OG (I believe) that Roms stated that Swami’s Lambsbread seeds were F5 of the Vibes genetics. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks for that. I’m re reading this thread and the one on OG… there seems to be evolving information as the thread here dates 2011. But the one on OG just started last year, Upstate is doing a f8 give away.
 

Wwbsox

Active member
Thanks for that. I’m re reading this thread and the one on OG… there seems to be evolving information as the thread here dates 2011. But the one on OG just started last year, Upstate is doing a f8 give away.
Yes. I have to do some re-reading too. Roms was talking about someone working the green phenotype, which is what I am hoping for. The thread I saw, someone posted a picture of Swami’s “1960 heirloom lambsbread” alongside a pack of Pioneer Valley Lambsbread seeds. Roms said that they were both Vibes F5. Could be earlier in this thread for all I know.
 

BC LONE WOLF

Well-known member
Yes. I have to do some re-reading too. Roms was talking about someone working the green phenotype, which is what I am hoping for. The thread I saw, someone posted a picture of Swami’s “1960 heirloom lambsbread” alongside a pack of Pioneer Valley Lambsbread seeds. Roms said that they were both Vibes F5. Could be earlier in this thread for all I know.

Looking forward to you venture with JLB.

Irie
 

BC LONE WOLF

Well-known member
if it grows tall tall,
makes insanely skinny “colas”..
has thin leaves..
takes forever to flower
and in the end gives you a pile of pearly twiggy calyx on a many thin sticks "buds".
which give you a good buzz

then you have ---->Lambs Bread

Right on Rgd, I feel thats the description LB should have. I must add If one paid for it its not LB. One very important trait of the line is NOT to be sold in its pure form.
 

Roms

Well-known member
Veteran
There are some documents about it, also described in the book of Chris Duvall, so it isn't just speculation.
The first drug type genetics were from Angola and Congo that entered South-America (Brasil).

In 1753 the Dutch supplied the Khoisan tribe with drugs (probably Cannabis).

The Arabs were also responsible for the introduction of Cannabis into parts of Africa. The Arabs were in the slave trade for 10 centuries in Africa.

Alright temporal imbroglio i see and Jamaica do not resume South America generally. Of course Africa passed NLDs to Argentina y Brasil but more recently in 50/60/70s with hippies and surfers travellers. In 20/30/40s early in Europe btw. Good examples were Swazi in Hawai, Angola yes or Thai in Australia but that was century later compared to Jamaica. At the time 15/16/17/18th centuries only hemp seeds traveling for marine rope resource and food for the animals, NLD was taboo, mostly unknown and rejected by "religious" morals imho.

Btw Arabs suck mostly North Africa and Austronesian were in South Africa millenium minimum before ^^ 2200 BP NLDA pollen datas evidences in Madagascar!
 
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Marcus67

Active member
One final point and I will swear to put this to rest and not post of this again on here.

What we can find in records newly scanned from 100-200 years ago today compared to any research done even 10 years ago is incredible, and we should all have fun taking advantage of this researching! Having said that, the common popular notion that most -if not all- drug-type ganja in Jamaica came from India is certainly backed up in the records. Most "Coolies" excited India to Mauritius/South Africa/Jamaica from the Bay of Bengal/Kolkata where a lot of ganja was produced by these liscenced cultivators (many run by Jewish expat families). Any Sadhus going to Jamaica may have also brought their strains from places like Northern Indian as personal stashes. The Coolies probably relied on the ganja exports loaded onto their boats because it was done by bigger businesses (like tobacco, most cigarette smokers don't grow tobacco or have seeds). The Sadhus may have cared more and had their own personal seeds as it was more important to them maybe? Phylos has the old Jamaican genese on the map. They don't have the West Bengal/Bangladesh NDL in the bank though. That would be needed. I have petitioned the Indian Landrace Exchange to consider going to Bangladesh before it's all Gelato Kush. Please consider adding to my requests and messaging them as well :)
 

Marcus67

Active member
No Sadhu has gone to Jamaica, probably in recent times some Brahmins, but not Sadhus (also Sadhus don't grow ganjah, they don't grow anything at all)...
Thanks for that info! They did make their way to Mauritius so I figured being on the same immigration route it would have been the similar in Jamaica. Also articles like this one (below) from The Jamaican Gleaner does say that Sadhus were there, but unlike with Mauritius, I have yet to do a proper search of the archives for Sadhus in Jamaica. https://jamaica-gleaner.com/article/focus/20210326/prathit-misra-rastafari-indian-connection

Edit: found this, should mean there are similarities between Jamaican, Mauritius, Natal South African, Trinidadian etc. This is 80s Durban/ Natal by Kalifa- maybe a cousin of Jamaican. Along with Indian Hemp I see it also being called East Indian Hemp. "Indian Hemp cigarettes" were also in Paris Hostpitals for research in the late 1800s, so it really went around the world!
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Normannen

Anne enn Normal
Veteran
Having grown out CBGen Durban I can say that there are some similarities, but the most symilarities phenotypically in terms of leaf expression, pigmentation of the stems and rubberyness feel of stem rub as well as terpene expression is very similar to idukki Kerala offered by trsc. The Jamaican I have is from @Roms collection. But I see a stronger symilarity in aspect between JLB and Kerala than Durban. But JLB remains rather distinct from either the Durban and the Kerala in terms of terpene profile. These are preliminary observations from having grown all three of the purported strains. That said, I remember reading a marker distribution graph and Durban is weirdly enough almost it's own niche genetically, if there was a Landrace closer to a speciation event within cannabis that would result in textbook hybridization that would be some SA cannabis populations.
 
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