It's the CLUBS not the GROWERS!!!

[DoobieDuck]

I hope I didn’t offend anyone or run anyone off by my post yesterday..I want this conversation to continue, just with a little more compassion and understanding for each other.

QFT!!!
the price will remain the same with "legalization"(no one has defined that one yet) except there will be more striation in quality vs. price....no what i was trying to say is there will be a wider range of prices based on quality.
lower than now prices for low quality
possibly even higher prices for the very best as the market becomes flooded with inferior product.

Dagnabit..I agree! I grow what I think is quality weed, the best strains I can acquire from the most elite breeders in the world via Seedbay and ICMag...I'm not sure how fast these prices will change, but they will, time will give us an answer. I wrote an article here about the connoisseur market place, that I think is still developing.

The entire market has yet to break into realistic price categories as almost all consumer products have. A dirt cheap, low, mid range, medium high, and top shelf pricing for an example. We say or see top shelf a lot, but this has a lot of change and leveling out to go through still. The many other on-going factors such as Mother Nature will come in to play and affect price changes as we go.

With a bit less.
It's logical to assume that cost increases contribute to price increases. Except in this case.

DB it seems to me that the price the producer or middle man gets is not reacting in the same way it does with other consumer products..not quite yet. I don't know where I fit in, if you would consider me a middle man, even though I'm a producer, I am the next in line before the retailer then consumer. I grew out, what I would consider huge for me, but a miniscule amount for some of you in this conversation. That to offer through legal channels for the patients in our state. I was disappointed in getting only 18 for mine, what I considered elite, top shelf cannabis, look through my images! I know looking only tells you so much but please take my word for it..it was above average. It was even trimmed to perfection. Last fall average pricing seemed much higher.

The collective I worked with threw mine in with everything else and off it went to other collectives, then to consumers/patients, he didn't take a cut. But he is also retailing some for over 250 an ounce, 5600..so he's getting his. I can work on finding another legal outlet in the future, but for now I feel, I hope, someday the market will change and this won’t always be the case. I think there will be legal outlets looking for really unique elite weed like mine.

I think my knowledge, hours of growing, selection, manicure, and dedication deserve more than the large commercial grower, but do I deserve more money? I see some big operations very passionate about what they do and just as dedicated. We are going to have to adapt and feel our way through this market as it evolves. Be well..DD

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

DB it seems to me that the price the middle man gets is not reacting in the same way it does with other consumer products..not quite yet. I’m a middle man of sorts, even though a producer I am the next in line before the retailer then consumer. I grew out, what I would consider huge for me, but a miniscule amount for some of you in this conversation. That to offer through legal channels for the patients in our state. I was disappointed in getting 18 for mine, what I considered elite, top shelf cannabis, look through my images! It was even trimmed to perfection. Last fall averages were much higher.

The collective I worked with threw mine in with everything else and off it went. I can work on finding another legal outlet in the future, but for now I feel, I hope, someday the market will change and this won’t always be the case. I think my knowledge, hours of growing, selection, manicure, and dedication deserve more than the large commercial grower, but do I deserve more money? I see some big operations very passionate about what they do and just as dedicated. We are going to have to adapt and feel our way through this market as it evolves. Be well..DD

Thanks for taking the time to relate your personal experience. Sorry you didn't get last fall's price. You're right, we'll evolve as everything progresses. IMO legalization, thus the market will tame retail prices. As capitalists, we won't set a limit on the price. But economic aspects will determine what each of us can produce at a given cost. Legalization will bring more competition and IMO, new cost vs return evaluation.

Part of the reason prices are so high is weed's illegal. If and when we legalize, the criminal component falls out of the equation. IMO, legalization will have another effect on lowering costs to produce because some of the production will move outdoors. IMO, indoor weed will be somewhat niche.

I guess I'm looking at this through a realist's lens as opposed to idealist. I'm not discounting the medicinal qualities of a cannabis, nor the time and effort invested by individual growers or large ops. But the production part of marijuana is not unlike growing produce.

That said, I understand that mj has a unique quality in our lives. So much that we'll seek the best we can afford. I agree with the logic that suggests we'll have a variety of quality. It's especially for that reason some of will choose to buy as opposed to producing ourselves. It's a matter of pay off. IMO, legalization will change that considerably.

I don't buy cigs because they're more expensive to produce myself. It's all about convenience. But I will go to the trouble of growing vegetables (for my own consumption) because the benefits outweigh the costs. However it's not a business opportunity in the sense I can support myself w/o significant capitalization, labor and management.

If I was a farmer and depended on sales I might have a different take. Unfortunately, my best wishes fall within competing market forces. My traditional quality may be as consistent as ever until reflected with the current dollar value, supply/demand and whatever subsidies the big shots will possibly receive.

I do think the cottage-industry aspect of growing mj will continue. Some will find a point of increased return, simply because they bring strain, selection and environment together in unique ways. Legalization might mean that some franchise their formula to increase market share. Or they may operate like mom and pop's general store... a good product at a fair price.

IMO, a 4x jump from wholesale to retail is unfair pricing. Especially when these guys are above board. I guess I can grudgingly accept the possibility that funds are allocated for potential legal expenses. But something tells me that retailers are somewhat comfortable right now. They can buy enough product at a low enough cost to affect overall rates. Then they turn around and use old retail figures no longer supported by their overhead.

 

[DoobieDuck]

Drugs Cost Money

Drugs Cost Money

DiscoB..I'd like to agree with you on your 4X jump being unfair, but doing a little research this morning provided me some facts, it could be worse! Your statement "Part of the reason prices are so high is weed's illegal" ..Are we not talking about legal medical marijuana here..? I'd like to think that, but.. I tend to think that it being illegal is still playing some part in the pricing. Yet morphine is not legal..?..Cheers...DD

I Googled for "biggest price markups in the drug industry" and the same for "floral" industry. I believe medical MJ falls into the pharmacutical arena. I'm including the floral link as that industy has huge markups as well.. Here is some info to consider.

Floral industry: http://www.intuitive.com/blog/inside_the_ftd_florist_business_with_flowersfast.html

Interesting story at the NYTimes http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DEED6143DF93AA25757C0A96E9C8B63

This from an article here Top Ten Biggest Price Markups
http://limewedge.net/top-10-biggest-price-markups
Mark ups are the small profit margins that retailers gain when an item is sold. It is the fundamental of business; it’s the reasons that the amount we pay is not what the item is actually worth. It’s the small amount of money the business owner tacks on to cover expenses and overhead costs such as rent, electricity, heating, etc. But some markups are quite ridiculous and here are some of the really high ones that should be avoided.
Prescription medicine tops the list of highest markups. The sky high cost of prescription medications is crippling the economy of the United States and keeping necessary medicines out of the hands of those who need it most; people living on fixed incomes with acute or chronic health issues……
.. in the United States and we are paying 200%-5600% markups on essential medicines……………

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Darn... thought that chit was free

Darn... thought that chit was free

DiscoB..I'd like to agree with you on your 4X jump being unfair, but doing a little research this morning provided me some facts, it could be worse! Your statement "Part of the reason prices are so high is weed's illegal" ..Are we not talking about legal medical marijuana here..? I'd like to think that, but.. I tend to think that it being illegal is still playing some part in the pricing. Yet morphine is not legal..?..Cheers...DD

Good points DD. I've read two scenarios in the thread. One poster mentioned something about high retail because the dispensaries are risking raids? I guess they're somewhat vulnerable?

If so, it's unfortunate for everybody. IMO, the potential for raids in a legal state adds additional room for price speculation. Can't really say it's undue speculation because raids do happen. I'd offer only a small percentage are getting raided and everybody else is hand over fist. Obviously this isn't retailers fault? They're providing a service and even risking their freedom in the process(?) (That question mark never goes away.)

Another poster was making a silly point that weed is so legal he can dance on the street corner in front of a cop with weed wrapped around his neck. I have to admit I got a chuckle. Maybe the marionette mary j man has the answer.

IMO, the legality is in limbo. It's legal to sell and illegal enough to get busted? We get several arguments here -

maybe the raided dispensary broke state or local law?

maybe the feds reneged on allowing states to mind their own mmj laws?

maybe above board dispensaries haven't a thing to worry about? but the volatile nature (they don't endure) keeps their price at a premium?

I think I've mentioned this but I'll reiterate. I think dispensaries are providing a valuable service. Folks who prefer a retail environment as opposed to friends or the street are served. It's certainly not the dispensaries' fault for the raid component. If this justifies the higher price it's kinda sad. The sick patient is subsidizing the dispensaries legal fund. No bust? Mr. non-profit becomes Mr. Rich.

But here's my concern. If the raided dispensaries are indeed breaking state or local law (aka, no fed involvement) and non-lawbreaking dispensaries are operating legally (aka, no danger of raid) Mr. non-profit gets even richer, faster.

What's happening to growers and mmj patients in the meantime? I use the op as example. Some suppliers get half the going rate and patients get nothing for that considerable savings to the retailer. And what says retails don't say $1200/lb this fall? Nothing? Will they lower their retail to sick patients? To tell you the honest truth, the medical law hasn't helped the med patient's wallet. They're effectively paying black market prices.

But it's legal/illegal in Cali?... and so goes the price. Down for supplier, effectively up for consumer. IMO, that's a crazy market for the dispensary.

We've had at least one poster that took the opportunity to support 4x markup. I'd hoped he might lend insight to the 400% equation. I'm paraphrasing but it was like,

"Sorry, suckas."

I think the illegal dealer warrants that kind of attitude. The prison aspect blows fair pricing as high as they justify and can still move. They work their ass off, take a big ass risk and it's a rough and tough business.

Compared to the dispensary that fears/doesn't fear arrest? On the street corner, nice neighborhood, no violence, air conditioning, lol and making the same retail as the guy risking prison? Maybe not.

I don't take any of you fellas of ladies opinions lightly. I don't even live in Cali for christ sakes. It's none of my nunya if you know what I mean.

But the aggregate argument I've received is, that's the way it is. IMO, the guy not risking arrest enjoys the same price as the guy risking prison. The same guy undercuts wholesale 50%. (Because he can.)

Dispensaries lowering retail apparently doesn't set too well with suppliers. Some of the comments declare that retail will NEVER go down. Well here's another way to look at it. If you're a dedicated wholesaler, retail isn't in your cards. It doesn't take lowering retail to cut your livelihood in half. At least according to the op.

I can certainly see dedicated wholesalers risking retail sales, even if it risks legal implications. Everybody's got to do what it takes to make it in this hybrid-risk situation. IMO, that's part of the argument to keep retail inflated? You don't have to answer, it's none of my business.

An unspoken handshake gone half?

Well... dispensaries halved wholesale and didn't lower retail. Sounds like at least some of you guys might ought to consider the dispensary business.

I Googled for "biggest price markups in the drug industry" and the same for "floral" industry. I believe medical MJ falls into the pharmacutical arena. I'm including the floral link as that industy has huge markups as well.. Here is some info to consider.

Floral industry: http://www.intuitive.com/blog/inside_the_ftd_florist_business_with_flowersfast.html

Interesting story at the NYTimes http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DEED6143DF93AA25757C0A96E9C8B63

This from an article here Top Ten Biggest Price Markups
http://limewedge.net/top-10-biggest-price-markups
Mark ups are the small profit margins that retailers gain when an item is sold. It is the fundamental of business; it’s the reasons that the amount we pay is not what the item is actually worth. It’s the small amount of money the business owner tacks on to cover expenses and overhead costs such as rent, electricity, heating, etc. But some markups are quite ridiculous and here are some of the really high ones that should be avoided.
Prescription medicine tops the list of highest markups. The sky high cost of prescription medications is crippling the economy of the United States and keeping necessary medicines out of the hands of those who need it most; people living on fixed incomes with acute or chronic health issues……
.. in the United States and we are paying 200%-5600% markups on essential medicines……………

I think the floral industry is an apt comparison. Flowers to flowers. I know a few farmer's market retailers and much of their product gets binned as opposed to sold. The trash component is added to retails to recoup loss. It's either that or no farmer's market. Thank goodness they're good logistics managers or that trash component would be even higher.

Our local florists have refrigeration to keep trash to a minimum. They're even better with logistics. And they have to pay for that increased overhead. Besides, they're paying much more for fresh flowers than fresh produce. And there's nobody threatening to put em in prison... short of the tax man.

MJ isn't as perishable as fresh flowers. More like preserves, lasts much longer. But I'm getting back to "Who's on first" so, rant off.

In close, I say peace to all fellow mj components. May you growers see successful opportunity. To the buyers, I hope ya got lots of disposable income.

And to the dispensaries that recently rocked two components' worlds... I'll just keep my trap shut.

 

[Abja Roots]

I'm not going to comment on everyone's statements. I just wanted to point one other thing out.

My friend has a regular 9-5. The business is not theirs. They get up, go to work, take lunch, work some more, then go home. This cycle is repeated M-F for 50 weeks out of the year. They get two weeks off. They get paid approx $20/hour. Simple office administrative work. Filing, database entry, answering phones etc....

They said something to me once about "It's a weed man. It grows itself" The issue was he wanted to buy some of my personal herb(Real Headband. Low yielding,finicky, and rare), for less than what I was getting for a pound of it at the time. I was getting $4200 a lb and he didn't want to pay more than $250/oz. I had gone to visit him three hours away and brought him the herb. I explained to him, that people were buying lb's and not paying that little. I sold it to him, but after that never brought anything for him ever again.

For me there are important points to be made. I didn't roll out of bed, pull a plant out of my backyard and walk into the dispensary and sell it that day. This job is everyday all day. If you run your own business you know that there are no days off. Even when you're on "vacation" you're calling to see how things are. If there's a problem, it's your phone that's ringing. You're thinking about things that need to get done, and wondering if they're getting done. If you don't show up to work. Nothing dies. You just take a sick day or lose a job. I don't get sick days.

I also have chosen not to be social, or have girls over. You don't think I'd like to bring some people over to my house sometimes. Even if I don't grow anything at my house. It's still a risk exposing yourself to people. Something my friend working the 9-5 doesn't worry about so much.

I've also put in the work to have the best strains I can get and invested lots back into genetics.

I'm not knocking those who grow one or two crops a year for personal. Good for you. I'm willing to help any of my friends set up a personal op, for no charge at all. Just to see them do their thing.

However most people would never have seen herb if it wasn't for those doing it for the money commercially. So don't forget that. Especially in states that were not lax on herb.

I can't remember how many 48 hour trips I've taken in the last few years. I'm talking 5-10 hours flying/driving. Enjoy the night. Get back on the road/plane the next day. Max 72 Hours. I'm not complaining, but I'll be damned if I don't get paid for it. When the pay doesn't match the risk/reward then I'll stop doing it.

 

[TruthOrLie]

I'm so confused now.

Is it the clubs?

Or is it the growers?

 

[DoobieDuck]

TOL I stay confused..I think I put on a good act of being knowledgable.. I hope.
The growers aren't getting any more for their product, period and the consumers seem to be paying more. I think we've seen some good explanations of why they charge what they do. Cheers..DD

 

[420247]

I wish more of this "400%" markup was being used on lobbyists and campaign contributions...

 

[TruthOrLie]

How about STRESS? Mexi Schwag?

Sometimes as low as $200 a pound, even soaring past $1000 in some places.

How much hard work and labor does it take to produce a pound of Mexi Schwag Brick Stress?

I think you're paying a lot more for the product to get INTO your hands than you are paying for production.

By default, this would suggest the markup goes to the delivery service, not the producer.

The folks that produce Cocaine raw materials don't make much off the final product, either.

 

[Green lung]

How about STRESS? Mexi Schwag?

Sometimes as low as $200 a pound, even soaring past $1000 in some places.

How much hard work and labor does it take to produce a pound of Mexi Schwag Brick Stress?

I think you're paying a lot more for the product to get INTO your hands than you are paying for production.

By default, this would suggest the markup goes to the delivery service, not the producer.

The folks that produce Cocaine raw materials don't make much off the final product, either.

In those cases the mark up comes comes from the difficulty of getting the product to market.

The indoor cannabis business the transport is rather easy compared t moving swagg and coke in submarines, speed boats, multiple middle man, border crossings ect.

 

[Zen Master]

HAHAHAHAH!

"the coca farmers are probably making less off the final product than growers"

dude are you JUST NOW comprehending how business works? people buy/use materials, or provide a service, and in turn charge a little more. Adding any sort of risk to the factor increases the cost. Period.

smuggling kilo's of coke is just a tad more risky than growing a few plants I'd say.

a kilo of cocaine costs over 10,000.

do you think it cost more than $100 to produce it? nope, its the insane amount of risk that MULTIPLE people take to smuggle it into the USA.


however a grower takes the same risk as the coca grower, however he then assumes the risk of the coca processor, dryer, packer, shipper, and sales person.

so how much of that pie did the grower now assume under his "risks" category?


those nuclear power guys in Japan, you think they were giving away power for free? hell no, and now something "risky" (other than LEO) happened and they need every cent they can muster just to get back on their feet.


oh and the reason that stress is so cheap, is because there are literally entire mountainsides of cannabis being grown in Mexico, they don't have C.A.M.P coming in and tearing their shit up, hell they RUN THE FUCKING TOWN. Its practically legal there (regardless of actual legal status), its just that the market is so slim they ship it up here and make more money on the same amount of product. edit: most brick I see isn't even trimmed up, its literally colas compressed in a bag. vacuum process it, ship it, sell it. Yeah a hair more work goes into grade A cannabis buddy.


wake the fuck up kid, you have no idea how the real work works.

 

[TruthOrLie]

i think it would be a lot easier to get a brick of coke into the country than a brick of weed

but bricks are bricks

 

[BiG H3rB Tr3E]

Its funny you guys are still arguing with ToL.... hes more out of place then a gay dood at hooters. just leave it be. if you dont do work you cant ever understand everything that goes into it. its the same as people who say it is so easy to run a business but have never owned one themselfs...

 

[dagnabit]

Its funny you guys are still arguing with ToL.... hes more out of place then a gay dood at hooters. just leave it be. if you dont do work you cant ever understand everything that goes into it. its the same as people who say it is so easy to run a business but have never owned one themselfs...

yup...

 

[DoobieDuck]

Zen Buddy..you talk about all these risks but this thread is about legal medical marijuana being produced in a legal state and being sold legally to legal patients..at least I think it is? If so I'll agree there may be some risk in getting robbed at your collective, business, but all the risks you speek of are not incured by legal growers or suppliers, are they?

HAHAHAHAH!
Adding any sort of risk to the factor increases the cost. Period.
...is just a tad more risky than growing a few plants.....
....its the insane amount of risk that MULTIPLE people take to smuggle it into the USA
...however a grower takes the same risk as the coca grower, ...........assume under his "risks" category?

Maybe I'm a bit more confused then I thought I was? Of course it's risky being a bank and transporting cash too, but do they claim that a reason for their costs and pass it on to their customers? Probably so..armed guards cost money. Armored cars even more.
I'm just not seeing all the risks, or the amount of risk, your talking about with these legal outlets and legal suppliers?

...wake the fuck up kid, you have no idea how the real work works.

...and Zen did you miss this part of this thread?

Smiles and cheers my comrads..keep it clean, don't flame your Brothers..DD

EDIT:

if you dont do work you cant ever understand everything that goes into it. its the same as people who say it is so easy to run a business but have never owned one themselfs...

Big Herb..you got it right Bro..DD

 

[dagnabit]

Zen Buddy..you talk about all these risks but this thread is about legal medical marijuana being produced in a legal state and being sold legally to legal patients..at least I think it is? If so I'll agree there may be some risk in getting robbed at your collective, business, but all the risks you speek of are not incured by legal growers or suppliers, are they?

i said the same thing..
but was told mj is not legal...

i still dont understand?
long as ive got my card i can dance with pot strapped to my neck(marionette) in front of a cop.

but somehow it's the illegality keeping the prices up.

ill repeat.

the same $300.00 oz sold pre 215 is sold today at $300.00.
the inverse relationship of price versus legality just is not there!

 

[TruthOrLie]

so dag and bigherb, is it the clubs or the growers?

lets try to stay on topic here.

I say its way more the clubs than the growers, but rightfully so.

Its way harder for a grower to get caught because of electrical use than it is for a dispensary to be targeted because of a green cross on its front door.

How much of that $50 or $60 1/8 or $300 oz does the grower deserve? All of it? Half of it?

and you comparing me to a gay dood at hooters = not cool


Are you trying to tell me that because I didn't create Facebook I can't begin to comprehend why Zuckerberg should be a billionaire?

You don't got to do shit to understand shit.

Einstein never exploded into a nuclear bomb.

 

[dagnabit]

so dag and bigherb, is it the clubs or the growers?

like everything else on the planet..

it's the market that sets the price.

 

[TruthOrLie]

like everything else on the planet..

it's the market that sets the price.

one day you will wake up and realize that although capitalism dominates the world you live in, it is not the norm or a healthy reality.

 

[dagnabit]

one day you will wake up and realize that although capitalism dominates the world you live in, it is not the norm or a healthy reality.

you asked.
i answered.
do you refute the truth of the answer? or do you just not like the reality of it?