Inheritance In Seeds Question

[Sam_Skunkman]

This is my rational guess... I would have to say that the seed will always take the mom's form.
Because of the formation of bud by mom. I can't imagine dad changing bud formation of the mom that much because of pollen? Total guess though

Almost right, Seed Testa and Pericarp, Perianth, are inherited maternally, the rest of the seed, embryo etc is from both paternal and maternal.
When seeds have DNA removed to be sequenced, all of the maternal only DNA is removed before the rest of the DNA is extracted from the seed for DNA sequencing. Otherwise the ratio of DNA from mom and dad is not correct it is tilted towards the mom.
I have found that seeds will resemble the mothers, not the pollen parents. Altho seeds volume (Embryo) can in theory be altered by the father being big or small. I have not seen this.

I am only referring to the effects of the parents genes, not how much a plants was pollinated, that will reduce seed size, or how early or late pollinated.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I have no idea if this is relevant to Cannabis or not.
-SamS

I found this tidbit looking around...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091111120640.htm

Publishing in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, the team from the John Innes Centre, an institute of the BBSRC, demonstrated that the gene acts locally at the base of the growing seed. It produces an as yet unidentified mobile growth signal that determines final seed size. If the gene is turned off, smaller seeds are produced, but crucially if the gene is turned on at a higher level than normal, seeds a third larger in size and weight are produced. This is the first time such a reciprocal effect on seed size has been observed, and points to the fundamental importance of this gene in plant development.

Not a cannabis plant but...

http://www.pnas.org/content/106/47/20115

" A KLU-induced increase in seed size leads to larger seedlings and higher relative oil content of the seeds. "

Interesting stuff

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

ie,, the correct answer is... "just like the mom"

YES, Tom is correct.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I thought they had found that seed size was directly to do with small RNA and was controlled maternally? I don't think the plants want the seed to be too big.....

Man selects for bigger seeds, also for non shattering seeds.
But yes maternal.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

maybe seed size is a trait controlled by maternal cytoplasmic inheritance?
so i bet on "just like the mom".

Correct.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I have seeds 12 to the gram and 800+ to the gram. I have crossed many big with small, both parents being the seed parent in different crosses. The moms are what makes seeds big and/or small in F1 seeds.
-SamS

nice one bro (still wrote its a qualitative trait)

never really bothered about the seed size when it came to breeding/pollen chucking...

quantitative would be something like the "first trials" and the basis of mendels work (color, height, etc. basically the exteriour and biomass yield factors), on the other hand, flavor cannabinoid profiles, fertility (including seed size, non return rate when artificially pollinated, embryo viability, etc...) are multigene linked -> hard to "predict" the outcome no matter the breeding regimen unless using markers etc...

blessss
ps.: my first thought too, sams planning to breed the biggest bird/fishing hempseed of all times??? never would have figured him for an angler (just bustin ya balls dude)

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Seed shape and color is inherited by the mom but seed size can be larger than the seed size of the mom. Especially if the father had a large seed size himself. The texture might also vary depending on the dad but not in all cases.

Almost right.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I have seen seeds grown on F2 plants where the seeds did not fit into the Calyx's way to big, and the reverse where the tiny seeds just rattled in a big calyx.
-SamS

Good morning Sam, Tom, Chimera and thread.

initially, I chose somewhere between the two, based on my fairly neonatal experience with cannabis propagation... which is nothing spectacular you know, just a good farmer keeps seeds right?


Anyways,
here's something that I think would help me understand this super intriguing topic a little better...

How is the size of the seed relative to the size of the flower's calyx's, does the seed influence the calyx or does the calyx determine the seed size?

Like, which came first, the seed or the calyx?

 

[MrBelvedere]

Can you add "who cares?" to the poll option list please?

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

So 35 votes,
13 for the Mom
11 for non of the above.
9 for between the two.
2 like the Dad.

Cannabisso, Cmobile9, dogbite1, Genghis Kush, Guy Brush, highlem, jaded1, MicroRoy, Midnite Toker, pastor, PaullyHighBred, satva, TomHill, also Chimera knew but did not vote.

When voting first started it was not so much for the Mom but folks listened to Tom and others and Moms came in first in the end.

Please excuse my delay, my computer was having problems for a few days, all fixed now.
-SamS

 

[topheavy420]

I had an F2 of your Durban x Skunk#1 that had large bracts with seed rattling around in them so I voted in between the two. I thought it was a good question because its not so blatantly obvious to the hobby breeders who see's a range maturation. Or maybe I'm not hitting the right window with pollination...

So 35 votes,
13 for the Mom
11 for non of the above.
9 for between the two.
2 like the Dad.

When it first started it was not so much for the Mom but folks listened to Tom and others and Moms came in first in the end.

Please excuse my delay, my computer was having problems for a few days, all fixed now.
-SamS

 

[Betterhaff]

A bit off topic but I read a paper where they claimed to have identified the gene that controlled seed size. Can’t remember what species was used in the research but they were fooling around with it with the application towards beans. I don’t think I saved the paper.

They found they could control the seed size by turning it on (or off, can’t remember), making them bigger but it didn’t necessarily affect yield. In other words plants that produced larger seeds produced fewer of them compared to their counter parts with smaller seeds that produced more. Yield by weight was essentially the same though so the application would apply only for the desired use of the end product.

 

[mofeta]

Geez, I get an F- on this one- I didn't even understand the question. I thought you meant the seed size of the progeny in successive generations, not the size of the seeds produced in the first mating.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Betterhaff,
This one?

I found this tidbit looking around...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091111120640.htm

Publishing in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, the team from the John Innes Centre, an institute of the BBSRC, demonstrated that the gene acts locally at the base of the growing seed. It produces an as yet unidentified mobile growth signal that determines final seed size. If the gene is turned off, smaller seeds are produced, but crucially if the gene is turned on at a higher level than normal, seeds a third larger in size and weight are produced. This is the first time such a reciprocal effect on seed size has been observed, and points to the fundamental importance of this gene in plant development.

Not a cannabis plant but...

http://www.pnas.org/content/106/47/20115

" A KLU-induced increase in seed size leads to larger seedlings and higher relative oil content of the seeds. "

Interesting stuff

or this one?
http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/66/4/1087.abstract
-SamS

 

[ChaosCatalunya]

So, apart from seed size, is there any consensus or hard fact on other inherited traits ? Terpene profile, potency, vigour ?

With Heterosis in F1 crosses, does having especially inbred non vigorous parents make for a more vigorous offspring, or do you get more from vigorous plants simply with separate genepools. ?

I seem to remember Dj Short put some ideas in his book, but have not seen anything concrete since ?

 

[Betterhaff]

It was another paper, along the lines of what Tonygreen posted but they went further.

 

[Tom Hill]

ps there but was one vote for just like the mom when i started ranting lol.. i had to make sure too btw mofeta, that i understood the question correctly.

 

[Gram Paw smurf]

Was confused on how many gens you meant along myself.
Figured 1st like the mom but after that selection takes over n to even propose a prediction of the nxt gen with any given f1 mom you'd at least have to see some growth traits to even make a guess or it could go either way.
On a side note is it just me that sees mendels maths as a foundation but the whole following a single trait or 2 a little simplistic when it comes to all the observable traits actually dealt with and how they can mix n match n mingle n combine?
In the end I find it to be a blend of the math n instinct along with some luck myself with the way some traits combine n only show while other traits are observable etc.
Also anyone know or seen off hand a paper on genetic trait combinations specifically?
Seen it a while ago n would love to re read it but can't nvr find the thing any more.
Pretty sure it was a thread here but could've been else where too I suppose.
Thnx in advance to anyone who can point me in the right direction.
Interesting read through so cheers for the thread sam, been considering for a while seed to kinda be a finger print of sorts for moms.
Maybe not as precise but I figure between size colouring n mottling patterns it's something that can n should at least be utilised to identify seed having come from certain specific cuts.
Once you've seen seed from a cut any seed claimed to be from said cut should look like what you've seen, so somewhat of a simplistic verification, but lots of seed does look similar in the end too.
I do tend to try n notice with claimed x's of cuts I come across that I've seen seed from b4, unfortunately market seed aint the greatest for it though as little mottling as some seed seems to have by the time it gets to the consumer.


On a side note but similar in nature, what about traits only dominant in 1 sex or the other, n is it possible to isolate a trait to a sex say for instance any herming tendencies to only the males in the line while all the fems show no sign of it?
Any thoughts?

lol actually got numerous questions simple observations have brought up in my mind maybe you more experienced breeders could answer, like could we be missing signs we could use to predict what a seeds going to produce maybe sex wise for example by not paying attention to something that could be right in front of us like while the seeds are still on the plant?
Like maybe to formation of the calyxes themselves n how the alternate the way they fold over themselves, or even how they grow in an alternating fashion as they form etc.
Like I've noticed the way the calyxes alternate how they fold over themselves if held base at the bottom n viewed along the seam some will fold from the right over the left n others the left over the right, could it be significant at all, dunno myself.
Anyone ever considered "mapping" a seed run?
Like mapping n tracking every seed on the plant itself so one could notice if anything tracks with the alternation of their growth on the plant like maybe they're producing a male 1 calyx, n than a fem the nxt, n than a male, etc. etc.?
Would be a long tedious process I'm sure but could answer something unknown along the way, or are we still just at a stage where we know so much less than there is to know but allow our egos to pretend we actually know quite a bit already?

Sorry came across this thread as I hit an energetic high n it just got my wheels turning on a lot of old unanswered as of yet questions I've had. lol

anywho interesting topic, cheers fellas,......................................gps

 

[MJPassion]

I too thought the question was in reference to the seed from the progeny...

Sorry Sam but the question was not clear so some of us were confused in what you were asking. Why I gave the answer I did & did not vote.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Well I am sorry for any that did not understand that progeny in this case meant the offspring of a given mom and dad? And not following generations, several did understand that they, F2's, will be between the two original mom and dad in size, and they still voted for like the MOM for my question.
I try and construct sentences that can't be interpreted in the wrong way, not perfect, but I tried.
I would of just asked about f2 etc size, if that was part of my question.
-SamS