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I no longer believe Broad Mites cause DUDDING
- Thread starter oceangrownkush
- Start date
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StudenTeacher
Well, after spending a ton of dough on actinovate, Caps bennies, and regalia, it looks like I may be going a different route. I'm thinking aliette, physan 20, and a spray of eagle 20 in veg and 10 days into 12/12. More reading of course before I make up my mind.
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StudenTeacher
Especially around my house apparently :-/
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StudenTeacher
Weird, I remember you mentioned that there was a safer alternative to eagle 20 with the same active ingredient ?
yeah there are but I don't know them well enough to give a suggestion
I don't know how I feel about activonate or regalia in these instances (I know both). I don't know if they target molds (fungus are different). I love the idea behind regalia I don't know if it is as effective as chitosan (regalia gave me no visible results have not used chitosan)
I like microbiology as a solutions but their efficiency is best when used in a proactive manner and they need specific environmental to work.
Bottom line is I ran into the same issues when I went recycled organics but in retrospect I know what I did wrong, I know where the leaks in my hort game let these things happen.
I am not trying to be judgmental or a dick about things but it is like this, the more we go to replicating nature in our grow the more nature seeks to balance itself out so the more we deviate from sterile gardening techniques the greater the occurrence of these types of problems.
Personally this has not dissuaded me from my course but I can appreciate the frustration and I see you putting in great effort to solve the problem. I can't give suggestions because I don't know your particulars but either way I hope you get it figured out.
If you use toxins to get your genetics straight understand the hidden element that is causing this problem will still exist and if you don't figure it out past this you will be tempted to use this products past the point of safe use to simply get a proper harvest in.
So thank you so much for the diligence in qualifying the pathogens and hopefully we can find some methodologies to fight this in a sensible matter
would be real curious to know what kinda of pots and mediums people encountering problems are using, for some reason I think there might be some common denominators.
I don't know how I feel about activonate or regalia in these instances (I know both). I don't know if they target molds (fungus are different). I love the idea behind regalia I don't know if it is as effective as chitosan (regalia gave me no visible results have not used chitosan)
I like microbiology as a solutions but their efficiency is best when used in a proactive manner and they need specific environmental to work.
Bottom line is I ran into the same issues when I went recycled organics but in retrospect I know what I did wrong, I know where the leaks in my hort game let these things happen.
I am not trying to be judgmental or a dick about things but it is like this, the more we go to replicating nature in our grow the more nature seeks to balance itself out so the more we deviate from sterile gardening techniques the greater the occurrence of these types of problems.
Personally this has not dissuaded me from my course but I can appreciate the frustration and I see you putting in great effort to solve the problem. I can't give suggestions because I don't know your particulars but either way I hope you get it figured out.
If you use toxins to get your genetics straight understand the hidden element that is causing this problem will still exist and if you don't figure it out past this you will be tempted to use this products past the point of safe use to simply get a proper harvest in.
So thank you so much for the diligence in qualifying the pathogens and hopefully we can find some methodologies to fight this in a sensible matter
would be real curious to know what kinda of pots and mediums people encountering problems are using, for some reason I think there might be some common denominators.
The eagle twenty by itself will not cure duds. I can not even say it has a effect on it.
I know this because I had mites and sprayed eagle twenty along with a mitacide. This was before I knew I had duds. The dudding was there but I thought it was the mites. I had posted questions about dud indications but got no reply. Some one told me I could have duds after clearing up the mites. The breaking branches that come with duds was what lead me to look at duds. So like I said I treated with eagle twenty in veg and flower. Every plant I had was treated. Still had duds.
My point is that eagle twenty may or may not cure part of the dud problem. I sprayed it twice about a week apart.
The best cure I have had for duds is culling the weak plants, using new media, and bleaching the shit out of all your grow equipment. I did all this and am still not sure I have rid my grow of them.
And wierd I use coco in cloth pots and plastic pots. I was reusing the coco but have stopped.
I know this because I had mites and sprayed eagle twenty along with a mitacide. This was before I knew I had duds. The dudding was there but I thought it was the mites. I had posted questions about dud indications but got no reply. Some one told me I could have duds after clearing up the mites. The breaking branches that come with duds was what lead me to look at duds. So like I said I treated with eagle twenty in veg and flower. Every plant I had was treated. Still had duds.
My point is that eagle twenty may or may not cure part of the dud problem. I sprayed it twice about a week apart.
The best cure I have had for duds is culling the weak plants, using new media, and bleaching the shit out of all your grow equipment. I did all this and am still not sure I have rid my grow of them.
And wierd I use coco in cloth pots and plastic pots. I was reusing the coco but have stopped.
They may not be the same. I just wanted to post my experience so others did not spray eagle 20 needlessly in their grow. My spraying was a once in two year thing. I have someone water for me and his grow had PM real bad. Just figure I would do a preventative with my mite treatment. Mine spraying was not for mold.
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StudenTeacher
Rittle me this. When is a dud not a dud? Answer: when it's a dud.
All info here is appreciated, and I hope my smartassness doesn't rub you the wrong way mr Crane.
I think so many people are searching for that miracle product that will solve everything, however it doesn't exist yet. I'm glad that you shared your experience with the community. My feeling is that a lot of people are having different problems leading to duds.
No broad mites this time, though I've had them. No nematodes, not sure if I've ever had them, but who knows. I'm sure some peoples duds were from micro critters, but this time, mine apparently were from fusarium, verticillium, phytophthora, pseudomanas syringae, and pythium. I think any one of these in an indoor garden would mean the end of healthy, bountiful, harvests. Eagle is only one line of defense. Uc Davis recommends Aliette for phytophthora and it's registered for food crops. Physan 20 will supposedly kill fusarium, and I've yet to research verticillium, so not sure what will be needed to address that. The pythium came, more than likely, after the plants had succumbed to illness and stopped drinking water for a few days. The physan would also address the pythium. If I were to spray eagle 20 only, I wouldn't expect to cure all of the problems I've been having with my plants. I use eagle in veg and at flip, to prevent powdery mildew and I'm hoping to find out in my future reading, that it will help to suppress some of these other pathogens as well. By future I mean a few minutes from now...
Yesterday I (with the help of my good friends at amex) just sprung for 3 Mitsubishi Mr slim units. I have generally always ran hepa filtered intake and double carbon scrubbed exhaust, with a handful of one ton window banger ac units (3 units for 16kw) , and some fancy dehu's. Ac is generally not needed in winter, and in summer my room still never gets above 80degrees.The exhaust will slam the door closed, and is constantly sucking in unfiltered air through every micro crack in the garage. Who knows what could be sucked in when I open the door to enter the garden. I've bought about 15 pairs of shorts, and a shit ton of hanes white t shirts, so I'll be changing every time I go into the garden from now on. No more super suction exhaust, since the room will be sealed from now on. I'm building an inbetweensy space out of poly and zippers, that I will enter only in undies, where I can put on fresh clean clothes and shoes. This will also serve as another line of defense against things being potentially sucked into the room. I've never been in a rural area, but my thoughts are that since everything isn't covered in pavement, there's a lot more shit floating around out here that can cause problems, so I'd better change things up to address these potential problems. In typing this I realized my mistake in buying shorts. I'm not a fan of pants but the AC will help me get the temp down a few degrees while I'm working in the grow room. I think some cheap scrubs will be the answer. Baby steps to the elevator...
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StudenTeacher
I threw everything out, moved, started over from seed in a new location and now duds again.. 6-7 weeks into flower before signs show and damn right I'll ride out the last couple weeks so I can at least harvest some shitty buds and make hash. I got just over two lbs of marketable buds off of six kw and hopefully a thousand bucks in hash. Yes that sounds bad but it also beats working in a restaurant. A few buds, and some shitty hash, and I can afford to eat. Thank god the big room didn't go down. I just ripped out all of my wood tables, took down the panda plastic from the walls, replacing all fans, and I will paint the walls, and physan the cement floor. No more wood table stands, just cinder blocks and plastic tables. Just spent 10 grand on ac and replaced all carbon filters. I've been growing for roughly half of my life and had my first crop 18 years ago. I could give a shit less about hyped up genetics, or trying to save a strain. I've grown about 25 -30 seed packs and about 150 clones from here in socal, and all but 3-4 plants turned out to produce a marketable product. Sure some turns out better than others, but it all sells. If you think I'm fucking around here, you are mistaken. I'm doing the best I can with what I have. I'm learning more every day. The problem before was I didn't know shit about anything, as I didn't have any real problems the first ten years or so, and I didn't realize I was a complete amateur.
If you have something to contribute, then help us out. If you think you're hot shit, well, then, you remind me of the 19 year old version of myself. I got laid more when i was 19 so maybe it's not all bad, lol. This is a big deal for a lot of us, and you come around here talking shit? How about trying to offer a real solution. The shit is usually in the environment, water, or grow medium, then it gets into the plants. Throwing away plants is great, but preventing them from becoming infected is even better.
student can you post some pics of your symptoms?
Also are you growing in organic soil?
Judging by your using the term "mutters" I am going to assume you grow several kilometers outside the borders of California. We have a clone trade here that unfortunately tends to be inhabited by shady "clone guys" who never flower their stock. These tend to be gardens that magnetize and spread pathogens around into everyone's garden like a discount special hooker.
This isn't a problem that is isolated to here but it is where it has first been documented. There are several theories surrounding the cause but seemingly nobody can lay down facts, I am under the impression it is a syndrome rather than a specific pathogen, but it is real I've seen it, not something that can be attributed to grower error.
In my case I believe it was caused by my own error. I am busy with some final experiments, and then I will update this thread with my theory!
No offence taken Student.
Now I have a gg4 in flower that has small amounts of dudding showing. This is what happened to the plant so far. It had the eagle spray I mentioned earlier. It was smaller but I dont remember how small at that spraying.
Following that it received chitosan at 5.4 grams per five gallons of nutrient mix for 30 days.
Then it was dunked in bayer advances till it stopped bubbling. This was a nutrient mix with 25 ml per gallon of advance.
Then it went into flower. During the first few hours of flower I left a fan off by mistake. When I opened the door the room I was in was about 95 degrees. the room the plants were in was way hotter. Enough to fog my glasses when I open the door were it was 95. So way past 95 degrees. This heat killed a bunch of fans on the gg4 plant.
Now the after math of all this was as follows. The other 4 plants in the room with the glue are doing great. I never had any duds with those two strains.
The glue which came from dud stock showed some damage from the heat beyond dead fan leaves. I cut off four branches that had yellowing leaves i the bud.. The stems on these four branches looked swollen and sickly. Like they were dying back. That was at about week 4 or 5.
Since then I have gotten some smell from the plant. Not as strong as should be. But like what most growers get around here. When I first grew this plant I had one plant that dudded and one that didnt. It is stronger smelling than the dud but less than the nondudded. So I can say it is weaker smelling than normal for a fact.
Now the frost is there as well. Not quite as much as should be expected but enough to be able to sell by looking at it. Maybe I can post a picture to night when lights are back on.
One thing that is odd is the bud size. They seem to be smaller. Not super tiny but smaller than expected. I attribute this to the lose of fans and possible root die back. I can only guess how many of the roots were killed when the room was so hot.
I dont know exactly why this plant came back but this is what I have done and seen so far in my grow.
As for pests I had the mites like mentioned earlier. These were wiped out and I have not seen them again. The dunking happened because I replaced plants with clones. To clean out the plants that had dudds or were stresses from the dudding. Some how I got thrips with the clones. I could not tell at the time because I could not catch one. I thought it might be root aphids so I dunked all my plants in the bayer. I caught one by drowning it in a bucket of water. Nothing like chasing a fricking super tiny bug with a eye dropper and squirting it under water till it stops moving. Well turns out it was an adult white fly. So these are the pest I have had.
Other than these I had some fungus gnats come in on a clone after that, but they never made it to the gg4. These came in about 4 weeks after the gg4 went into flower.
Now I have a gg4 in flower that has small amounts of dudding showing. This is what happened to the plant so far. It had the eagle spray I mentioned earlier. It was smaller but I dont remember how small at that spraying.
Following that it received chitosan at 5.4 grams per five gallons of nutrient mix for 30 days.
Then it was dunked in bayer advances till it stopped bubbling. This was a nutrient mix with 25 ml per gallon of advance.
Then it went into flower. During the first few hours of flower I left a fan off by mistake. When I opened the door the room I was in was about 95 degrees. the room the plants were in was way hotter. Enough to fog my glasses when I open the door were it was 95. So way past 95 degrees. This heat killed a bunch of fans on the gg4 plant.
Now the after math of all this was as follows. The other 4 plants in the room with the glue are doing great. I never had any duds with those two strains.
The glue which came from dud stock showed some damage from the heat beyond dead fan leaves. I cut off four branches that had yellowing leaves i the bud.. The stems on these four branches looked swollen and sickly. Like they were dying back. That was at about week 4 or 5.
Since then I have gotten some smell from the plant. Not as strong as should be. But like what most growers get around here. When I first grew this plant I had one plant that dudded and one that didnt. It is stronger smelling than the dud but less than the nondudded. So I can say it is weaker smelling than normal for a fact.
Now the frost is there as well. Not quite as much as should be expected but enough to be able to sell by looking at it. Maybe I can post a picture to night when lights are back on.
One thing that is odd is the bud size. They seem to be smaller. Not super tiny but smaller than expected. I attribute this to the lose of fans and possible root die back. I can only guess how many of the roots were killed when the room was so hot.
I dont know exactly why this plant came back but this is what I have done and seen so far in my grow.
As for pests I had the mites like mentioned earlier. These were wiped out and I have not seen them again. The dunking happened because I replaced plants with clones. To clean out the plants that had dudds or were stresses from the dudding. Some how I got thrips with the clones. I could not tell at the time because I could not catch one. I thought it might be root aphids so I dunked all my plants in the bayer. I caught one by drowning it in a bucket of water. Nothing like chasing a fricking super tiny bug with a eye dropper and squirting it under water till it stops moving. Well turns out it was an adult white fly. So these are the pest I have had.
Other than these I had some fungus gnats come in on a clone after that, but they never made it to the gg4. These came in about 4 weeks after the gg4 went into flower.
The phytophthora seems to be associated with wet mediums. The link on here and ones I found all mention it. Coco, hydro and way overwatered whatever.
You use coco. I am a Promix user. My medium is never overwatered. Some symptoms are similar and some are not.
I agree that there are multiple things causing duds.
I have had some things get back to normal. Some died and some I tossed. I used a shotgun approach so I can't say what worked. Since they all didn't recover maybe nothing I did worked.
I am doing a seed run to see if it is my environment doing it or my practices. I figure if it happens to seed plants then it isn't an issue with the clones themselves it is what is happening to them.
You use coco. I am a Promix user. My medium is never overwatered. Some symptoms are similar and some are not.
I agree that there are multiple things causing duds.
I have had some things get back to normal. Some died and some I tossed. I used a shotgun approach so I can't say what worked. Since they all didn't recover maybe nothing I did worked.
I am doing a seed run to see if it is my environment doing it or my practices. I figure if it happens to seed plants then it isn't an issue with the clones themselves it is what is happening to them.
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