Hazemania

[Sideshow-Bob]

#16:

 

[Sideshow-Bob]

#17:

 

[Sideshow-Bob]

#18:

 

[Sideshow-Bob]

and here are the three male jaggen bx1 that were used to create the bx2:

have a nice sunday everyone

vibez

 

[RandyCalifornia]

Wow, they all look like winners Sideshow. Excellent growing and attention to the details.
The Zamal/ThaixHaze I have been flowering have a plant that, as it dries, turns brown and it's the best one. I look on that as a positive trait to carry on to the next generation. The best herb I've smoked in my life has had those indicator colors and that thick, hard, crackely, crunchy, when dry texture that translates into rich, thick, incense smoke that fills the air and hangs with a delicious smell. While in your lungs it expands and you can feel it flow into your body as you go on to the liftoff and eventual mind soaring buzz. That's what I'm looking for. It's like the herb I took off that first Thai Stick I dissected that made the biggest impression in my then, young life.

 

[bushweed]

Hi Sideshow-Bob,

Just to clarify an earlier discussion about inbreeding in the Oldtimer's Haze, where I stated:

I love the narrative of how the OldTimer's Haze lacks vigour due to years of inbreeding - something you can see in pyrrath's comparative haze thread - it suggests that some real work has gone into preserving the line, and that interesting outcrosses with the Meao Thai etc. should bring out certain traits dormant in the pure version.

And you responded:

Not sure to what narrative you are referring here... my understanding is that very little to no inbreeding took place with the oldtimers haze (dubi and ace made open pollinations to preserve everything from the original batch of seeds they recieved – which supposedly were very close to the cali-haze of the 70ies)

the dutch haze is the one that is heavily inbred towards one specific expression and needs be outcrossed to really shine. with the othaze dubi suggests to use it for outcrossings for indoor-purposes – or to grow it pure in suitable outdoor environment – where it really shines (as can be seen in the oltimer’s haze thread)

You've interpreted my statement to mean that Ace has inbred their haze, when the narrative I was referring to was indeed from the Oldtimer's Haze thread where dubi alludes many times to the original inbreeding in OTHz:

Haze it's a very inbred line and has lost lot of vigour.

A cross between Oldtimer's haze and other good pure haze inbred line like Tom's is the best way to restore the original haze vigour

It's in the hybrids when the haze line shines again.

The haze thai hybrids still keep the extreme tropical essence but they are quite easier to grow, better yielding and more powerful than pure haze

These quotes are in contrast to your second paragraph where you state that it is solely 'Dutch Haze' that has been inbred. In any case I'm not sure I understand what you mean by Dutch Haze, since all haze except Oldtimer's Haze came from Sam via the Dutch - all of it. I accept it's fashionable to put the boot into the Dutch, but as dubi states it's not only 'Dutch haze' that has been inbred, but the 'Old English Haze' as well.


Ok I'm not here to be argumentative, just clearing a misunderstanding. With that in mind, I'd like to say - wow gorgeous hazes Bob.

 

[yoss33]

Here's a Dutch Haze that has lost its vigour

 

[Sideshow-Bob]

Wow, they all look like winners Sideshow. Excellent growing and attention to the details.
The Zamal/ThaixHaze I have been flowering have a plant that, as it dries, turns brown and it's the best one. I look on that as a positive trait to carry on to the next generation. The best herb I've smoked in my life has had those indicator colors and that thick, hard, crackely, crunchy, when dry texture that translates into rich, thick, incense smoke that fills the air and hangs with a delicious smell. While in your lungs it expands and you can feel it flow into your body as you go on to the liftoff and eventual mind soaring buzz. That's what I'm looking for. It's like the herb I took off that first Thai Stick I dissected that made the biggest impression in my then, young life.

thx randy!

that's a great description of the qualities that makes haze (and other sats) so special to me... you worded it very poetically, makes me want to crumble a haze bud right now *g*

*reaches for the nearest jar*

let's give the kali mist x php a try

Hi Sideshow-Bob,

Just to clarify an earlier discussion about inbreeding in the Oldtimer's Haze, where I stated:



And you responded:



You've interpreted my statement to mean that Ace has inbred their haze, when the narrative I was referring to was indeed from the Oldtimer's Haze thread where dubi alludes many times to the original inbreeding in OTHz:










These quotes are in contrast to your second paragraph where you state that it is solely 'Dutch Haze' that has been inbred. In any case I'm not sure I understand what you mean by Dutch Haze, since all haze except Oldtimer's Haze came from Sam via the Dutch - all of it. I accept it's fashionable to put the boot into the Dutch, but as dubi states it's not only 'Dutch haze' that has been inbred, but the 'Old English Haze' as well.


Ok I'm not here to be argumentative, just clearing a misunderstanding. With that in mind, I'd like to say - wow gorgeous hazes Bob.

hi bushweed

yeah i definitely misunderstood you there (bound to happen, remember i'm not a native speaker) i thought you were saying that othaze is highly inbred in comparison/relation to the "dutch" haze, which obviously is not true.

of course i am aware that every (publicly available) haze is "dutch" and came via sam, except othaze... and this is exactly how i'm using the term dutch haze: to differentiate between othaze and the rest.

at no point did i want to use "dutch haze" as a derogatory term, hell almost any plant shown in this thread contains dutch haze. i have been singing the praises of skunk x haze for a while now - the classic dutch haze.

if you pick up on an ironic quality of my posts concerning dutch haze it is referring to the tale of sam selecting parentals from 10 000 male plants (a story which some people like to use to devalue any and all breeding efforts that don't work with numbers that high)

it is a nice story, but proof is in the pudding and to me the pudding of othaze tastes at least as good despite not having been worked at a level of selecting from 10 000 male plants.

plus statements like this one:

I have not worked Original Haze as much as tried to save it, I collected as much seed as I could in the early 70's grew them and did free pollinations and did minimal selection to ensure I saved as many genes as I could. That was in the 70's & 80's now I have clones for the last 20 years. My O Haze is not done being worked on that is why I tell people to use it as breeding materials.

-SamS

really make me wonder... if everything was saved by open pollinations (and the line then was not worked/bottlenecked on purpose), why is there not as broad a variety/range of expressions within the dutch original haze?

my personal conclusion from all this is, that othaze is significantly less inbred than any other available pure haze today...

maybe i'm just too far away from the relevant time, maybe tom hill haze gives an accurate impression of what dutch original haze from the 80ies was like (broader range of expressions + a LOT more vigour) ... but what about the incense taste?

i don't claim to have any authority to speak truth about original haze, i just want to share my passion about her... of course in the process opinions are bound to come up, but they are just that: my personal opinions.

i have changed a lot of my opinions regarding haze over the years and surely will continue to do so as i learn more, what doesn't change is the passion for an exceptional plant

Here's a Dutch Haze that has lost its vigour

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=36399&pictureid=969616&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

Now that is a stem

but it was nirvana haze i think? nirvana haze is said to be outcrossed / not pure...

 

[Sideshow-Bob]

Ok let's continue...

so now that you've seen some jaggen bx1, here is a Jaggen Bx2:

very close to the clone already, the aroma and effect seems fixed in this generation... i'm dreaming about having a true breeding jaggen with the next generation

 

[Mufflon]

Pure Jaggen in seedform sounds pretty nice!

Grown ur Sweet and Sour D clone some years ago.
Was the most disgusting smelling/tasteing weed i ever had.
Some people loved it.

 

[Sideshow-Bob]

Hi Mufflon

Grown ur Sweet and Sour D clone some years ago.
Was the most disgusting smelling/tasteing weed i ever had.

that made me laugh out loud!

i feel for you! the plant was better in the first run from seed (more citrus / fruit) but got really fuelish / chemy / earthy when grown from clone, at first it was interesting but interesting turned to offputting rather quickly for me too...

the two lines are much better on their own, i still enjoy nyc diesel as well as strawberry diesel very much

 

[Mustafunk]

Hello all and sorry I missed the show until now!

OT is a strain that came from a different source, prior to Sam Skunkman arriving to Holland, thus it's a whole different lineage and strain. It was never assumed or claimed that the OT line came from the Haze bros or had any relation with Sam's Hazes at all. It' was just an old "haze" strain with great potential (Haze back in the days was simply used to call those crazy long flowering sativas, then Skunkman came and named his strain The Original Haze, but I guess that's another story). The american hippies travelling to Asia that crashed stayed at OT1's crib, shared those old haze strains with him and that's basically the story.

If I remember well, Kaiki (who was the one doing all the proper breeding work for ACE since) received 40 seeds from Oldtimer1, this seeds came from a reproduction that Wolfman made some years before from the original OT1 seeds and were shared with Shanti or Neville as well. Kaiki soon noted how special this plants were so he was trying to keep the genetics as broad as possible, only discarding some bad parents and keeping all the mums and dads indentified. Plants shared many characteristics with the old Colombians and Thais, and maybe they were just crosses with those. American hippies were already crossing thais, mexicans, indians, africans or colombians at BOEL time. This may be also the reason why so much diversity can be found when all those OT hazes were grown... a whole range of different phenotypes certainly speak loud about a line that is nearly untamed.

Besides this, according to what I've seen, been told and read, it seems that the most bred and homogeneous Haze is the Tom's Hill Haze and it's commonly accepted knowledge that dutch Hazes lack vigour due to the intensive inbreeding during the years. Tom Hill's is pretty compact, short internoded, higher calyx ratio and with thick stems and leaves that aren't as slim as the other hazes we speak about here. It looks like a mexican sativa. It's probably the best Haze for indoor growing indeed. OT1 Haze in the other hand, is a wilder line and shows all those amazing diverse phenotypes, from pale greens to the yellow and the black purples that remain to the old Punto Rojo or Sta Marta Colombian strains. Some people at the spanish forums said as well that the Seedsman/TFD Haze was pretty wild too, and you could find both compact and wild phenos among them. It's another great line.

I find obvious too that all those crosses made with Kaiki's Meao Thai and even others documented with Tom's Hill Haze or Original Haze TFD/Seedsman may result in outstanding hybrids with great vigour and potency, probably much better than the OT1 Haze alone in those terms. Specially some OTH/OH crosses I've seen around.

I guess only someone who have grown all of them will be able to bring some more light to the topic. There are tons of info and pics on the OT Haze project.

Vibes!

PS: Additional info:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=116264

Oldtimer1 himself on Haze and the bastard scum of Queijo/HHF:

oldtimer1

* Group: Moderator
* Joined: 18-March 02

Posted 17 July 2007 - 10:39 PM
A brief history, In the eighties I sought out breeders who lived in areas where there was real sun there was little interest in long flowering sats, indicas were the word of the day. What I had were haze seeds, I sent out to lots of people in the eighties and then again in the early nineties via contacts I made on the net, the idea was that they grow them, rogue and reselect and bulk them up, then return some for my cold store archive, time was running out on the stocks I held. One of the last I sent to was someone called LadyJ from SoCal. Many promised but no one fulfilled what I asked, I thought thats it they are gone.

Yes I used to exchange a few PM’s with Cheesy later called Queijo as I do with lots of members, [currently about 500 PM’s a month] he was an interesting young man who was just learning to grow cannabis, I did not know him in fact I never met him in real life, in 04 he gave me a link to a topic at CW asking if I was the Ot1 being mentioned. I looked and there was a member called Gant saying he had a small number of Ot1 seeds that a friend called wolfman had made, apparently LadyJ had passed the seeds I sent asking him to take on the task I asked to be done.

I contacted Gant, he asked me to prove who I was, I put him in touch with ~RC~ the owner of CW and OG who verified who I was. Gant was going to split the seeds between several breeders to continue the task, the Spanish brothers were one of them, I had talked to Dubi from time to time in the past at OG so I suggested my share go to them, also southern Spain was close to the latitude where the lines were first made.

I don’t believe that people should own genetics, my normal analogy is if you pay for a bit of land, its yours to use, make a living from, you should care for it maybe improve it, your children may inherit its use but I don’t feel you ever own it. With plants if someone works at breeding a seed line they should get a return for their work.

Summer 05 both dubi and kaiki contacted me keeping me updated, finally in late august they wanted to send me cuts of the most likely lines, for me to say what I thought I said I was not in a position to receive cuttings. kaiki got back to me saying its ok Queijo was going to receive them for me and that they had sent both cuttings and seeds for me, I left it for a week or so then contacted Queijo asking him if I had got right what kaiki had said, he replied sep the 1st 05 saying yes I have haze cuts for you, I’m going to root them and veg them for you, a week or so later he contacted me saying don’t worry the cuttings and seeds are safe with me, I won’t abuse them or your trust. I thought weird but replied no problem I’m in no hurry.

Thats the last I heard from Queijo for some while, The day before the second hemp expo early November dubi and kaiki who Queijo had told them he would collect from the airport and that he had hotel rooms booked for them as his guests.

Literally a couple of hours before they were due to board their flight Queijo contacted them saying he had an emergency to deal with in Holland and it was all off. Both kaiki and dubi contacted both Jools and myself telling us about it, if we had had a little time we would have organised the things Queijo had promised. kaiki decided not to come and lost the cost of his return fair, but dubi had old friends in north London, they had a place for him to stay, so he came. Dubi was a nice young man we did our best to make him welcome, I gave him a lift to his friends as it was not far from me, the way they had been treated, made me ashamed of being English, the most interesting thing was that both kaiki and dubi were shocked that I had never met Queijo and had, had no more contact with him than they had. They were also shocked that I never received the cuttings and seeds they sent for me.

As soon as the hemp expo was over I contacted Queijo telling him how disgusted I was with him the way he had treated kaiki and dubi. He never replied, I refused to talk to him after that.

Jan/Feb 06 queijo.co.uk put Ot1 haze seeds for sale in their online shop.

Early this year Gant asked Queijo to make restitution and send me what was my due, he sent me copies of the exchanges, I told Gant no threats please, I don’t believe in violence. The stories were interesting, like Ot won’t answer my emails, I did not know where to send them, [even though I had told Queijo and he knew exactly where they should go] Gant was patent and arranged for a third party destination who Queijo knew and who I trusted, it all came to nothing just more fairy stories and broken promises.

I swore this was something I would never put in the public domain, I drew a line, let it go! But I can’t stand by while dubi is being libelled, he should not be defamed for speaking out. dubi and kaiki are both people that I have found honourable and true to their word! Gypsy and Old Pink you know me in real life, you should not allow this defamation of dubi’s character stand.

I know nothing of what deals Queijo had with either dubi or kaiki, I can only say how I was treated and saw how you treated dubi and kaiki! Queijo you asked me to get you the chemical to make STS, I got them for you, you know I'm poor with little money, 3 yrars is a long time and I'm still waiting to be paid, so much for your respect for me.

 

[Siever]

sorry totally missed your question... like i said, i have no direct growing experience with shantis seeds, but have smoked enough SSH to know there is some straight fire in his haze-gear... imho you can't go wrong with shantis skunk x haze

Hi y'all,

Begin December I bidded on Mr Nice his auctions and I paid 68 euro's for 2 auctions.
I still haven't got them. He doesn't answer my emails. He did it once to tell me he had sent the seeds. That was almost 2 months ago.
I don't think I'll ever buy Mr Nice again!! Most certainly not after looking at/drooling over Dubi's collection.

Siever

 

[Ur Humbl Nr8tor]

Hi Mufflon





that made me laugh out loud!

i feel for you! the plant was better in the first run from seed (more citrus / fruit) but got really fuelish / chemy / earthy when grown from clone, at first it was interesting but interesting turned to offputting rather quickly for me too...

the two lines are much better on their own, i still enjoy nyc diesel as well as strawberry diesel very much

Sorry to hijack a thread but did someone say Strawberry Diesel?

yummy

 

[Ur Humbl Nr8tor]

Ok, a little bit more on point.

Ace Purple Haze x Malawi (Fem) around 13-14 weeks of flower. Still looks like it could go a few weeks structurally, but a lot of amber trichomes forming on her. A very strong hazey type of aroma although this one definitely shows the malawi influence.

 

[Ur Humbl Nr8tor]

Remember the Ace Purple Haze x Thai?

Impregnated with the DJ SHort pollen from the male late flower reversed female...

Well, here's the first female flowered from that cross (purple haze x thai) x F13

It came down around 13 weeks where the PHT was 16. Lots of hazey/hashy aromas with a hint of floral note from the F13.

Great info sharing, gang. There's so much mystery surrounding the haze...which is part of the fun/aggravation in experiencing her. I have both THH and TFD haze seeds as well, but I've been plenty happy working within the Ace seed stock for the time being. Lot's of winning cannabis to be found to those with the patience and love for a long flowering sativa.

 

[Gerardbutler79]

that's great stuff man. think it'd be pretty cool to see something like the meao thai and the purple haze on their own crossed to DJ short's F13. Last article I read by DJ said he was concerned about his competition in the seed biz. Now this is just a thought but.. I'd think a joint project between ACE/CBG, and DJ Short, would boost all of their sales.

 

[Sideshow-Bob]

Hello all and sorry I missed the show until now!

OT is a strain that came from a different source, prior to Sam Skunkman arriving to Holland, thus it's a whole different lineage and strain. It was never assumed or claimed that the OT line came from the Haze bros or had any relation with Sam's Hazes at all. It' was just an old "haze" strain with great potential (Haze back in the days was simply used to call those crazy long flowering sativas, then Skunkman came and named his strain The Original Haze, but I guess that's another story). The american hippies travelling to Asia that crashed stayed at OT1's crib, shared those old haze strains with him and that's basically the story.

If I remember well, Kaiki (who was the one doing all the proper breeding work for ACE since) received 40 seeds from Oldtimer1, this seeds came from a reproduction that Wolfman made some years before from the original OT1 seeds and were shared with Shanti or Neville as well. Kaiki soon noted how special this plants were so he was trying to keep the genetics as broad as possible, only discarding some bad parents and keeping all the mums and dads indentified. Plants shared many characteristics with the old Colombians and Thais, and maybe they were just crosses with those. American hippies were already crossing thais, mexicans, indians, africans or colombians at BOEL time. This may be also the reason why so much diversity can be found when all those OT hazes were grown... a whole range of different phenotypes certainly speak loud about a line that is nearly untamed.

Besides this, according to what I've seen, been told and read, it seems that the most bred and homogeneous Haze is the Tom's Hill Haze and it's commonly accepted knowledge that dutch Hazes lack vigour due to the intensive inbreeding during the years. Tom Hill's is pretty compact, short internoded, higher calyx ratio and with thick stems and leaves that aren't as slim as the other hazes we speak about here. It looks like a mexican sativa. It's probably the best Haze for indoor growing indeed. OT1 Haze in the other hand, is a wilder line and shows all those amazing diverse phenotypes, from pale greens to the yellow and the black purples that remain to the old Punto Rojo or Sta Marta Colombian strains. Some people at the spanish forums said as well that the Seedsman/TFD Haze was pretty wild too, and you could find both compact and wild phenos among them. It's another great line.

I find obvious too that all those crosses made with Kaiki's Meao Thai and even others documented with Tom's Hill Haze or Original Haze TFD/Seedsman may result in outstanding hybrids with great vigour and potency, probably much better than the OT1 Haze alone in those terms. Specially some OTH/OH crosses I've seen around.

I guess only someone who have grown all of them will be able to bring some more light to the topic. There are tons of info and pics on the OT Haze project.

Vibes!

PS: Additional info:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=116264

Oldtimer1 himself on Haze and the bastard scum of Queijo/HHF:

hey mustafunk

great to have you join the thread with all your knowledge and thanks for posting the history of the otHaze! it's sad that there are so much negative vibes surounding the hazes (not just otHaze but any other as well) - while the hazes can inspire so much positivity and creativity...

i enjoyed reading the thread on the boel and haze, may not have a lot of base in reality but it's a nice story anyways.

though from my perspective i think of the dutch haze and othaze as close relatives, but that's just going after what i have seen in the plants i have grown... in the hybrids of the two haze lines i have found a range of aromas that is surprisingly similar. It's a complex ensemble of aromas and for me it's hard to imagine that they could be so similar without sharing common ancestors.

but i have no experience whatsoever with the original cultivars that made up haze, so it's all speculation what i can say for sure though: if you like one of them, you will like the other one as well.

interesting to read about the wildness of the seedsman line! pepe le skunk posted a pic of his seedsman haze the other day:

Nothing come close to a pure Original Haze...unless it's haze crossed to another tropical sativa...nothing fruity right there,only "hazyness",but also none of those strange effects you got when crossing haze to an indica or indica dom...only pure sativa bliss!


original haze:
View Image
View Image
View Image

ethiopian x haze:
View Image
View Image

looks fantastic, really a shame that it's not available anymore.

the combinations of othaze with the other pure hazelines (tfd, seedsman, tom hill) are extremely exciting, growing them side by side should tell some interesting things about the similarities/differences in the lines.

great input musta!

buenas vibras

View Image

greetings Nr8tor

great pictures of fantastic plants, thanks for sharing!

the one above is so nice to look at, talk about exotic

the f13 cross sounds great, i love floral hazes...

good vibes

 

[Sideshow-Bob]

to conclude the part about the jaggen backcrosses i want to show two more pics of the original clone, those are from 2006 of my first grow with her

she has lost a bit of vigour since then but still is one of my favorites

good vibes

 

[maree]

hola maestro

i highly appreciate your input on the differences on the hazelines, very interesting point of view. personally i wouldn't call them seperate haze lines, for me it is one line that covers a pretty broad range of characteristics. what you described, for me are more like the different ends of the one haze spectrum. othaze and dutch haze for me are the same thing, only that the range covered by the othaze is still a lot wider than what is found in the dutch haze - which i would guess is a result from the heavy inbreeding that the haze "suffered" in the netherlands. .......

i guess what i'm arguing here is more of a semantic question than anything else - but i want to stress that keepers (of the same qualities) can be found in both of these ends of the range and that starting with othaze you can get to the same point where the dutch haze is today (the other way round it is more difficult - impossible actually - of course because of how inbred the dutch haze is) that is the point where the high value of othaze lies for me: it offers haze as a whole genepool and not as a highly inbred, bottlenecked and stabilised genotype of said genepool.

for me personally the othaze is where it's at, but there actually are circumstances in which i would recommend a dutch haze over othaze...

your not sounding old at all, more like a classic *g* this thread would not exist if it weren't for oldtimer(s)

Hi Sideshow - I don't know nothing from nothing but thought you, and other enthusiasts, might be interested in this quotation from Old Timer himself (I've highlighted the key phrase in bold and italics myself):

"I have collected seeds and made crosses I suspect for more years than most of you have been alive, I suppose you could call me a collector, keeping a small library of my favorite plants as mothers, from each seed batch I tried or made and grew out, I looked for new unique traits and highs.

This has just been to please me, since I have been here, there has been a constant stream of people asking me to produce seeds. When I do I get asked questions that are impossible for me to answer.

Only keep the outstanding and reject all the rest has been my rule of thumb. Nothing in the way of records have been kept, I really don’t remember the make up of keepers it was of no importance to me. I collect and exchanged seeds from all over the world, genes that have found their way in my plants come from northern NZ, Aus, quite a few from Mex, New mex, panama, Cal and oregon, Thailand, southern india, afghanistan, kashmir, nepal and bhutan, malawi, nigeria, sa are only a few that come to mind from early days, most were local strain developed and grown in the area, in other words farmed or cultivated, most did not have names.

In more resent years, I exchanged beans/genes with a lot of friends in the usa and can, now they do have names like ae77’s CO, speed racer, trix, one hit, uw, grapefruit, skunk’s and hazes, princess, genius, Romulan and numerous others.

All this time over the years when the mood took me I would cross lines adding/combining characters I like. If the result was better a new mum would replace the parent as you can only keep so many mums.

Now smile, from what I remember it has a small amount of haze, skunk, an indica from Af, a cross Mr Soul gave me, made from Princesses bro, cant remember what it was crossed with, anyhow these are some of the genes that made a mother I call celia, there may be many more I just can’t remember, so smile is the result that something that was slowly developed and selected over the last 20 years or so, I do remember celia replaced hd or was it hl, anyhow one of them was her mother, hd and hl started out from haze skunk crosses, but many other things were combined over the years, so its easy to say its a haze x skunk hybrid even though thats not the whole story, also the skunk and haze are not the same as the ones that went to holland. The male for smile comes from a line developed by an old friend in north london, it did have a nickname called cp [short for camden poison] I don’t have a clue what is in it, I had the seeds in cold store for 15 odd years, I can’t ask my friend as he has gone to rest at least 10 years back.

The thing is, none of the lines/genes are from names that are sold or mean a thing to anyone. All are worked/developed varieties cultivated either locally outdoors or indoors by people I have exchanged idea/genetics with over the years.

At this time I don’t intend to develop smile any further, I like and I am happy with them just as they are except for one small thing. I thought you would accept them for what they are and what they do when you smoke them, to me that is the only thing that counts."

Sorry - know this echoes what Mustafunk has already said but hoped this might be of some value to you lot.