Haskel pneumatic refrigerant pumps

[Gray Wolf]

GW,

Thanks for the info! I ordered a 1/2" x 25' coil with a 13" diameter that could be used for that purpose! I got 1/2" x 50' coils for the two immersion style chillers.

So in that scenario I would go collection pot, fore line trap, pump, coil in warm collection basin bath, coil in cold bath, filter drier, tank.

Yup.

Will the Haskel generate enough heat into the liquid tane to warrant using it to heat the water? If the water bath is at 85 F and being regulated by heat mats around a stock pot, would a coil like that still be worth it? I guess any heat helps, but it's another component after the pump that would need to be recovered each time.

What it offers, is the need for adding less heat, and dry ice.

Looks like my last test notes got pitched, but as I recall the Haskel discharge on SN0009 was over 125F. It adds the heat of compression to the intake temperature, besides how hot the pump might be running.

Perhaps Permaculture can cast some light on what his runs at.

Does anyone know a general temperature range that the butane exits a haskel under normal conditions? If the delta T was high enough (such as generated by two TR-21's) I could see this being useful, but if the delta T isn't very large, it wouldn't be doing much heating. I love the idea of reusing process heat, but I'd like to know it was making a difference and worth the hassle to do so.

GH

We haven't added one to a Mk V yet, but Joe is running one on his Mk IV and says it is worthwhile in his application running dual TR-21's.

 

[gholladay]

We haven't added one to a Mk V yet, but Joe is running one on his Mk IV and says it is worthwhile in his application running dual TR-21's.

Awesome!! I've got the parts to do this ordered already, so I'll plumb it up that way when I get everything and use this technique!

Thanks for all the wonderful as advice GW!

GH

 

[Permacultuure]

My Haskel has been running pretty hot. The last few runs were food grade runs and the outlet lines were piping hot. Not sure if the temp has been increasing over time or I'm just noticing it more, haven't gunned it yet. I would say a heat exchanger on the outlets is far more important than a heat trap on the inlet. I would just use a shotgun condenser as an expansion column instead.

 

[gholladay]

My Haskel has been running pretty hot. The last few runs were food grade runs and the outlet lines were piping hot. Not sure if the temp has been increasing over time or I'm just noticing it more, haven't gunned it yet. I would say a heat exchanger on the outlets is far more important than a heat trap on the inlet. I would just use a shotgun condenser as an expansion column instead.

Thanks for the input Perma. Sounds like using that process heat is definitely something I should pursue. I have already purchased a 1/2" x 25" x 13" (dia) coil that I'm planning to sit around the terpp basin, so a shotgun coil would have to come later. this should serve the purpose just fine though I think.

This coil should help transfer away some of the heat to my collection basin bath and save me some dry ice in my post chiller coil. I think this set up is going to be slick!

GH

 

[Tstar]

I just picked up a Haskel ext 420 is it good to go out of the box, or will I benefit once vacuum is reached by modifying it like you fine people have done. I admit my understanding of these pumps is limited but I am capable of ordering hoses/fittings and re-plumbing the thing.

Also I have been remissed for some time not saying thanks to all of you who have shared your knowledge and experience here and across the web.

GW I have learned so much from you and yours over the years that the words "thank you" typed in a forum wont do. You post with wisdom, intelligence, and all too often patience. Your goodness never fails to shine! I am sure you are an amazing person and I truly thank you for your contributions to the cannabis movement. Please let me know how I can donate to your organization

 

[Gray Wolf]

I just picked up a Haskel ext 420 is it good to go out of the box, or will I benefit once vacuum is reached by modifying it like you fine people have done. I admit my understanding of these pumps is limited but I am capable of ordering hoses/fittings and re-plumbing the thing.

Also I have been remissed for some time not saying thanks to all of you who have shared your knowledge and experience here and across the web.

GW I have learned so much from you and yours over the years that the words "thank you" typed in a forum wont do. You post with wisdom, intelligence, and all too often patience. Your goodness never fails to shine! I am sure you are an amazing person and I truly thank you for your contributions to the cannabis movement. Please let me know how I can donate to your organization

The 420 will work single stage as is, in conjunction with good heat exchangers.

Thanks for the good thoughts bro!

 

[Dave at Haskel]

I just picked up a Haskel ext 420 is it good to go out of the box, or will I benefit once vacuum is reached by modifying it like you fine people have done. I admit my understanding of these pumps is limited but I am capable of ordering hoses/fittings and re-plumbing the thing.

Tstar, thanks for picking up the EXT420. As Gray Wolf said, the EXT420 is a single stage pump, while the pump can be modified to operate as a two stage pump. Whether you need one stage or two depends on the pressure boost you need from the pump.

I'm going to get technical again and I hope this makes sense. To determine how many stages are required, you calculate the Gas Compression Ratio, this is calculated with the following formula: Po/Ps where Po= the desired outlet gas pressure and Ps= the gas supply pressure. For example, if the inlet pressure (Ps) is 50 psig and the desired outlet pressure (Po) is 150 psig, the gas compression ratio is 150/50=3. Normally, Haskel recommends keeping the gas compression ratio at about 5 or 6 for a single stage, however, the EXT420 can go up to 10 (the higher the gas compression ratio is, the less efficient the pump operates).

It gets trickier if you are pulling vacuum. Both the EXT420 and the EXT420-2 (and the 59025) can pull a vacuum. However the outlet pressure determines which is the best pump. To calculate the gas compression ratio with vacuum, you have to convert the pressures to absolute pressures. In absolute pressures, a full vacuum (29.92" Hg) is 0 psia, while the pressure as sea level is 14.7 psia. For example, if you are at sea level, and you want to pull a vacuum of 20" Hg and boost to 100 psig, you first need to convert both presssures to absolute. 20" Hg is approximately equal to 5 psia, while 100 psig would be approximately 85 psig. The gas compression ratio would be 85/5 = 17. Since that is above the maximum compression ratio for for EXT420 of 10, it would be necessary to have the ability to operate the pump in two-stage mode to do that.

On the other hand if you are pulling a vacuum of 20" Hg but you keep the tank you are pumping into chilled and the tank pressure is about 20 psig, your pressures will be Ps = 5 psia and Po = 34.7 psia (20 psig + 14.7 = 34.7 psia). The gas compression ratio is 34.7/5 = 6.9. That should be achievable with a single stage EXT420.

Now, if you are at a higher elevation such as in the mountains or some place like Denver it is more complicated and I'd rather not try to do those calculations here. Feel free to contact me if you'd like to discuss higher elevation operation.

I hope that makes sense. Let me know if you have any questions.

Dave

 

[Dave at Haskel]

I had a great time in Denver last week! I attended the Cannabis Cup on Monday and met a number of people throughout the week that read this forum. It's great to meet the readers and posters to this forum.

Thanks for the very warm welcome!

Dave

 

[SkyHighLer]

Tstar, thanks for picking up the EXT420. As Gray Wolf said, the EXT420 is a single stage pump, while the pump can be modified to operate as a two stage pump. Whether you need one stage or two depends on the pressure boost you need from the pump.

I'm going to get technical again and I hope this makes sense. To determine how many stages are required, you calculate the Gas Compression Ratio, this is calculated with the following formula: Po/Ps where Po= the desired outlet gas pressure and Ps= the gas supply pressure. For example, if the inlet pressure (Ps) is 50 psig and the desired outlet pressure (Po) is 150 psig, the gas compression ratio is 150/50=3. Normally, Haskel recommends keeping the gas compression ratio at about 5 or 6 for a single stage, however, the EXT420 can go up to 10 (the higher the gas compression ratio is, the less efficient the pump operates).

It gets trickier if you are pulling vacuum. Both the EXT420 and the EXT420-2 (and the 59025) can pull a vacuum. However the outlet pressure determines which is the best pump. To calculate the gas compression ratio with vacuum, you have to convert the pressures to absolute pressures. In absolute pressures, a full vacuum (29.92" Hg) is 0 psia, while the pressure as sea level is 14.7 psia. For example, if you are at sea level, and you want to pull a vacuum of 20" Hg and boost to 100 psig, you first need to convert both presssures to absolute. 20" Hg is approximately equal to 5 psia, while 100 psig would be approximately 85 psig. The gas compression ratio would be 85/5 = 17. Since that is above the maximum compression ratio for for EXT420 of 10, it would be necessary to have the ability to operate the pump in two-stage mode to do that.

On the other hand if you are pulling a vacuum of 20" Hg but you keep the tank you are pumping into chilled and the tank pressure is about 20 psig, your pressures will be Ps = 5 psia and Po = 34.7 psia (20 psig + 14.7 = 34.7 psia). The gas compression ratio is 34.7/5 = 6.9. That should be achievable with a single stage EXT420.

Now, if you are at a higher elevation such as in the mountains or some place like Denver it is more complicated and I'd rather not try to do those calculations here. Feel free to contact me if you'd like to discuss higher elevation operation.

Umm, it's a closed system, ambient pressure has no influence, except for the initial input and final output of the air. With less ambient pressure there'd be less back pressure on the Haskel's air exhaust which I assume if anything would result in improved performance? Is a larger air compressor needed to counter the lower pressure at it's input?

I hope that makes sense. Let me know if you have any questions.

Dave

I had a great time in Denver last week! I attended the Cannabis Cup on Monday and met a number of people throughout the week that read this forum. It's great to meet the readers and posters to this forum.

Dave, the big public BHO event is Chalice here in SoCal, either wear a shirt identifying you as the Haskel rep or better yet sponsor a booth. I look forward to meeting you in person! http://www.chalicecalifornia.com

Thanks for the very warm welcome!

Dave

Thanks again for getting down with us!

 

[gingerlyfingers]

Hey y’all, Chelsea (aka gingerlyfingers) the R&D gal from Terpp Extractors here! Just wanted to drop in, introduce myself and rave about some of the new developments happening on this end. This past week I had the pleasure of sitting down with Haskel’s Western Regional Account Manager, Dave, who presented us with the new and improved version of their industry-specific refrigerant recovery pump, the EXT420-2.

In light of the concerns associated with contamination within an active hydrocarbon recovery system, certain pump companies have opted out of participating in the concentrate industry i.e. Appion. Other pump companies have responded to the concentrate maker’s need for a food grade pump that is designed to protect both the operator and the quality of the concentrate WHILE maximizing solvent recovery. Enter Haskel’s EXT420-2, a model that will undoubtedly lead the development of a safe and reliable pump built specific for our industry.

If you’ve read through this thread, you know that concentrate manufacturers are already using Haskel’s 59025-3 with all stainless steel components and Viton seals, but are worried about the efficiency offered by using a dual stage pneumatic for pumping a low pressure solvent. With increasing recovery times in mind, the development of the EXT420 was initiated, yet as anyone who runs an active system knows, you gotta be able to pull a vacuum! In response to this, Haskel has announced their EXT420-2, which features the ability to switch from single to dual stage upon reaching inlet pressures nearing 0 psi. So with this pump, you get your higher flow rate when butane pressures are up there while still being able to pull a deep vacuum when they are not.

We have taken a look at the cutsheets for the new design as well as the additional equipment you’ll need to operate the pump, including an compressed air source, an air filter, an drive air pressure regulator (and gauge) and a drive air speed control valve (needle, gate or globe valve). We are working with Dave and Ernie from Process Specialties, INC. to come up with a turnkey package you may purchase directly through the Terpp Extractors website and that will include all the components necessary to start a Mk4c closed loop operation.

Dave has discussed with us the regular and yearly maintenance requirements for the Haskel and the 3 seal kits you’ll need to service the pump to keep it in optimal working order (and under warranty). Say you’ve already purchased an EXT420 and you need to get your hands on a mod kit to convert it to the EXT420-2… we’re working on getting those in stock as well, all determined by our customers needs. If you have any questions about the new pump, you can send we an email at [email protected] and I’ll get back to you as soon as I can. I know all of you are dying to know what they’re going to be priced at; I’ll be posting as soon as we get everything worked out on this end. Stay tuned!

A big thank you to Dave, GreyWolf and all other contributors to this thread... the level of professionalism you guys bring to the table does great things for elevating the extraction standard. It's so amazing to see reputable companies like Haskel taking on our industry's needs. This, compounded by the invaluable input from processors and community members, upholds the purpose on which this forum was founded upon!

A happy extraction is a safe extraction…

Chelsea

 

[Tstar]

thanks for the responses everyone... and keep up the good work Chelsea! We already have the ext420 here and we are looking to get our system up and running asap so we are leaning towards the 3 way ball valve modification GW posted.

Is it necessary to remove and flip around the head of the haskel in order to modify this way? also am i correct in assuming those are L type ball valves?

 

[Permacultuure]

You can spin the head around to any angle that best suits your mod yet you sacrifice the nice plumbing haskel did. We swapped it out for short lengths of 1/2" ptfe lined stainless hose. It allowed for a little more flexibility when fitting the pump.

 

[waywardwolf]

Dave! you guys should have a booth in july. Any plans? Don't spare the details..

 

[Gray Wolf]

thanks for the responses everyone... and keep up the good work Chelsea! We already have the ext420 here and we are looking to get our system up and running asap so we are leaning towards the 3 way ball valve modification GW posted.

Is it necessary to remove and flip around the head of the haskel in order to modify this way? also am i correct in assuming those are L type ball valves?

It is easiest if you rotate the head, which has a o ring seal, so is simple and easy to do.

 

[Tstar]

I finally wrapped my head around whats going in the ext420 and we now have a plan for the modification...many thanks to all of you! I will post pictures when im done.

the ext420 comes with the head essentially flipped already so no need to change it.

With just 2 3-way ball valves, a short flex hose and some fittings and we should be able to do the mod all in NPT. By placing the ball valves between the check valves and the existing plumbing we can do it cheap, rigid, and clean with the nice Haskel plumbing intact.

 

[Dave at Haskel]

I finally wrapped my head around whats going in the ext420 and we now have a plan for the modification...many thanks to all of you! I will post pictures when im done.

the ext420 comes with the head essentially flipped already so no need to change it.

With just 2 3-way ball valves, a short flex hose and some fittings and we should be able to do the mod all in NPT. By placing the ball valves between the check valves and the existing plumbing we can do it cheap, rigid, and clean with the nice Haskel plumbing intact.

Just to clarify, on the EXT420, the inlets are both on the same side. It's on the 59025 that the inlets are on opposite sides. As somebody else said, there is no right or wrong way, it's whatever works best for your configuration.

Dave

 

[Dave at Haskel]

Dave! you guys should have a booth in july. Any plans? Don't spare the details..

I'll have to talk to my marketing people, but I have a bad feeling that there isn't any unallocated money in the budget. Even if I can't get a booth, I'll try to go by the show and check it out.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[Permacultuure]

We'll have a booth Dave, we'd be pleased and honered to host you and Haskel.

 

[Dave at Haskel]

We'll have a booth Dave, we'd be pleased and honered to host you and Haskel.

Permacultuure,

Thanks for the offer. Let me check with my marketing people and make sure they are good with the offer.

I'll be in touch.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[Tstar]

Here is how we modded the EXT420, thanks again everyone.