Haskel pneumatic refrigerant pumps

[Dave at Haskel]

On the EXT420, are the hose fittings that stick up 1/2" JIC fittings?

Gholladay,

Yes, the fittings on the stainless steel tubes are 1/2" Tube JIC 37 degree Flare fittings.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[gholladay]

Gholladay,

Yes, the fittings on the stainless steel tubes are 1/2" Tube JIC 37 degree Flare fittings.

Thanks,

Dave

Thanks Dave! You're an awesome resource!

 

[gholladay]

Dave,

One of the last things I'm still a little confused about regarding the Haskel is whether a filter drier is required before the pump or not. I know in the conventional set up with an appion/tr21 you MUST put a filter drier before the pump, but I see a lot of photos of the haskel without a filter drier before it.

Does the Haskel require a filter drier on the inlet?

Thanks,

GH

 

[Dave at Haskel]

One of the last things I'm still a little confused about regarding the Haskel is whether a filter drier is required before the pump or not. I know in the conventional set up with an appion/tr21 you MUST put a filter drier before the pump, but I see a lot of photos of the haskel without a filter drier before it.

Does the Haskel require a filter drier on the inlet?

Thanks,

GH

Gholladay,

The Haskel pumps (EXT or 59025) don't need a filter, especially since all the pump sees is gas. The need for the filter is going to be more dependent on whether you need to keep moisture out of the extraction chamber.

Hope that helps, keep the questions coming!

Dave

 

[gholladay]

Dave,

Thank you! This clears up a lot!

Thanks,

GH

 

[Gray Wolf]

Gholladay,

The Haskel pumps (EXT or 59025) don't need a filter, especially since all the pump sees is gas. The need for the filter is going to be more dependent on whether you need to keep moisture out of the extraction chamber.

Hope that helps, keep the questions coming!

Dave

As long as all the pump sees is gas, might be another way to say it.

A Haskel won't like pumping oil laden butane liquid either.

 

[Dave at Haskel]

As long as all the pump sees is gas, might be another way to say it.

A Haskel won't like pumping oil laden butane liquid either.

We are getting real technical here, but this particular pump is fine handling liquids such as pure liquid butane. We have had some problems using different boosters that are pumping CO2 with oil in it, the oil builds up on the gas pistons and causes premature wear. If someone was pumping liquid butane with oil in it, it might be a problem, I don't know.

The main reason I was saying that pumping gas meant that no filters were required was because the pump can have problems if large particulates go through it. The large particles can get stuck in the check valves and keep them from checking properly and if that happens, the pump will stop moving the media (it will keep cycling, but the rate will be low to none).

Dave

 

[Gray Wolf]

We are getting real technical here, but this particular pump is fine handling liquids such as pure liquid butane. We have had some problems using different boosters that are pumping CO2 with oil in it, the oil builds up on the gas pistons and causes premature wear. If someone was pumping liquid butane with oil in it, it might be a problem, I don't know.

The main reason I was saying that pumping gas meant that no filters were required was because the pump can have problems if large particulates go through it. The large particles can get stuck in the check valves and keep them from checking properly and if that happens, the pump will stop moving the media (it will keep cycling, but the rate will be low to none).

Dave

What occurs with other pumps, is that the butane deposits oil in the cylinder seals, and causes premature failure.

One of the beauties of a pneumatic intensifier, is that it doesn't care if it sees a slug of liquid, but in this case this liquid deposits sticky oil on hot pistons and valves, and it isn't the liquid, it is what is in it.

 

[SquattingBull]

What occurs with other pumps, is that the butane deposits oil in the cylinder seals, and causes premature failure.

One of the beauties of a pneumatic intensifier, is that it doesn't care if it sees a slug of liquid, but in this case this liquid deposits sticky oil on hot pistons and valves, and it isn't the liquid, it is what is in it.

Sounds to me like a filter drier is still warranted unless there is a better way to prevent oil laden solvent from hitting the pump in the case of an error... Unless running a pure tane run to distill or something similar the butane hitting the pump would always have oil in it if the operator accidentally let the fluid level get too high.

Would an evaporation coil suffice to solve this problem? Ie guarantee that the tane has reached the gas phase and couldn't be holding onto any more oil?

 

[gholladay]

Dave,

So the filter drier isn't necessary as long as you can guarantee that no hash oil (or liquid tane carrying hash oil) gets to the pump. This seems like a job for Carla's Evaporator coil.

We are planning to use a 1/2" x 25' coil in a warm water bath (50-70°F) between the collection basin and the pump. The idea here is to make sure that all the butane moving through that coil has turned to gas and to leave any hash oil stuck to the coil, and not on the pump.

Does this sound like a solid solution?

Thanks,

GH

 

[A6 Grower]

I would suggest instead of a heated coil use a heated 6" pot so its easier to open up and clean. just like an MKiii lid ontop of a 6" spool and end cap. I could see the coil clogging and being a bitch to clean out fully. Imagine after a year of use. I was using an old 6" collection and it seemed to catch all the oil in any mist i sucked up. now i just let my filter driers catch it. Usually the filter at the front clogs after 2 weeks of running 10 to 20 lbs of material a day. Wouldnt hurt to toss some 4a bead in there to to keep things drier.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Sounds to me like a filter drier is still warranted unless there is a better way to prevent oil laden solvent from hitting the pump in the case of an error... Unless running a pure tane run to distill or something similar the butane hitting the pump would always have oil in it if the operator accidentally let the fluid level get too high.

Would an evaporation coil suffice to solve this problem? Ie guarantee that the tane has reached the gas phase and couldn't be holding onto any more oil?

The evaporation coil should keep liquid butane from reaching the pump, but ostensibly will become coated inside with oil that drops out, because the problem isn't liquid butane, it is that the liquid was ingested as a liquid containing oil.

You will also have to take away any heat you add, in addition to the heat of compression and the heat of vaporization, to return the butane to liquid.

I prefer a vacuum pump fore line trap, to adding more heat.

 

[Gray Wolf]

I would suggest instead of a heated coil use a heated 6" pot so its easier to open up and clean. just like an MKiii lid ontop of a 6" spool and end cap. I could see the coil clogging and being a bitch to clean out fully. Imagine after a year of use. I was using an old 6" collection and it seemed to catch all the oil in any mist i sucked up. now i just let my filter driers catch it. Usually the filter at the front clogs after 2 weeks of running 10 to 20 lbs of material a day. Wouldnt hurt to toss some 4a bead in there to to keep things drier.

Good idea using a Mk III for a fore line trap!

Having your drier in front of your pump, solves problems as well. Do you have a measure of how much they affect recovery speed?

Wonder if there is a potential market for the erl soaked beads and a pipe made for them, and promoted as Molecular Dabs................?

 

[A6 Grower]

Good idea using a Mk III for a fore line trap!

Having your drier in front of your pump, solves problems as well. Do you have a measure of how much they affect recovery speed?

Wonder if there is a potential market for the erl soaked beads and a pipe made for them, and promoted as Molecular Dabs................?

Ya it worked just fine before i had my mol sieve filters, now those do the job of both and ad no extra heat. My little g5s can run all day and still blow out only 80 to 90F air.

The only time i noticed a difference in recovery was when i put too many coffee filters on the end of my filter drier. Now i put 1 on the intake end and 3 loosely packed(very important) at the other end that the recovery hose going to the machine is hooked to. The difference wasn't huge only added 15 minutes to my run. My way of tracking isnt the best its just total time the machine has butane in it. Usually in 1.5 hours i can run and pull to full vacuum a 4x24" column that had 2 passes of 8 to 10 lbs using 2 g5s and cooling coils at -10F.

LOL molecular dabs! you always have the best ideas. Ill admit i was thinking about how to smoke the oil on the beads without washing it and all the beads dust off. Toss them in the quartz banger and slowly heat it?

 

[gholladay]

I would suggest instead of a heated coil use a heated 6" pot so its easier to open up and clean. just like an MKiii lid ontop of a 6" spool and end cap. I could see the coil clogging and being a bitch to clean out fully. Imagine after a year of use. I was using an old 6" collection and it seemed to catch all the oil in any mist i sucked up. now i just let my filter driers catch it. Usually the filter at the front clogs after 2 weeks of running 10 to 20 lbs of material a day. Wouldnt hurt to toss some 4a bead in there to to keep things drier.

A6 and GW,

Great advice guys! (as usual). So pretty much I've got the concept right, but the piece of equipment I've chosen to do the job isn't ideal because of the propensity for oil to collect in the coil and it being difficult to clean.

I like the idea of using the MKiii spool/lid and I see the benefit of being able to clean that out easily. So you think throwing some 4a mol seive in the 6" spool would help some?

GW you put your filter drier after your cooling coil because water should be easier to remove from the fluid stream when the temperatures are low (ie water has a lower solubility coefficient when cold) correct?

So ideally, I would go collection pot, fore line trap, pump, cooling coil, filter drier, tank?

Much thanks as always!

GH

 

[GratefulOne]

The mol sieve after the pump allows you to ad a water trap between the cooling coil and sieve. This allows you to catch most of the water and drain it off keeping the sieve working longer before recharge.

I am currently building a new system. I am not sure where I am putting the sieve. GW's set up was my plan but the sieve dust issue has me concerned about the sieve on the liquid side. Any thoughts here guys?

Edit: I am moving my question to the mol sieve thread so we don't trash this really good Haskel thread.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=6907574&postcount=336

 

[dabdynasty]

I have my sieve before my pump and its been kicking ass for about 10 months now. I have a small one that fits about 1/2 lb of beads and change the beads before I start my day of work. In the last 10 months I have maybe bled off 2 oz of water out of my tanks. I would have to say that they work great. I have never weighed them before and after although Im going to try to remember this week.

 

[Dave at Haskel]

Dave,

So the filter drier isn't necessary as long as you can guarantee that no hash oil (or liquid tane carrying hash oil) gets to the pump. This seems like a job for Carla's Evaporator coil.

We are planning to use a 1/2" x 25' coil in a warm water bath (50-70°F) between the collection basin and the pump. The idea here is to make sure that all the butane moving through that coil has turned to gas and to leave any hash oil stuck to the coil, and not on the pump.

Does this sound like a solid solution?

Thanks,

GH

Gholladay and everyone else:

I don't have any experience with what happens to the pump when liquid butane passes through it with oil dissolved into it. As I mentioned previously, we do know that CO2 has had problems, but that is over an extended time with CO2 laden with oil constantly passing through the pump. If someone inadvertently pumped a little liquid butane with oil in it just once, I doubt it would cause a problem, especially if you flushed the pump afterward.

All that said, especially if it helps your process, putting the various separators that have been discussed in, can't do anything but help.

Dave

 

[Gray Wolf]

A6 and GW,

Great advice guys! (as usual). So pretty much I've got the concept right, but the piece of equipment I've chosen to do the job isn't ideal because of the propensity for oil to collect in the coil and it being difficult to clean.

I like the idea of using the MKiii spool/lid and I see the benefit of being able to clean that out easily. So you think throwing some 4a mol seive in the 6" spool would help some?

GW you put your filter drier after your cooling coil because water should be easier to remove from the fluid stream when the temperatures are low (ie water has a lower solubility coefficient when cold) correct?

Yes, the solubility of water is affected by the temperature of the gas and if we cool it below the dew point for the amount of water it is holding, that water falls out of solution.

So ideally, I would go collection pot, fore line trap, pump, cooling coil, filter drier, tank?

Yes, how ever if you have a welded bottom collection pot, you might consider running a 1/2" cooling coil in your hotwater pot. That will heat the water being cooled by the evaporation pot, and save some refrigeration on the pump exhaust.

It will work with a welded bottom tank if you have a bigger container, so you can make bigger coils and not hang up on them when removing the collection pot.

Much thanks as always!

GH

Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

[gholladay]

GW,

Thanks for the info! I ordered a 1/2" x 25' coil with a 13" diameter that could be used for that purpose! I got 1/2" x 50' coils for the two immersion style chillers.

So in that scenario I would go collection pot, fore line trap, pump, coil in warm collection basin bath, coil in cold bath, filter drier, tank.

Will the Haskel generate enough heat into the liquid tane to warrant using it to heat the water? If the water bath is at 85 F and being regulated by heat mats around a stock pot, would a coil like that still be worth it? I guess any heat helps, but it's another component after the pump that would need to be recovered each time.

Does anyone know a general temperature range that the butane exits a haskel under normal conditions? If the delta T was high enough (such as generated by two TR-21's) I could see this being useful, but if the delta T isn't very large, it wouldn't be doing much heating. I love the idea of reusing process heat, but I'd like to know it was making a difference and worth the hassle to do so.

GH