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Growroom Electricity and Wiring
- Thread starter Phillthy
- Start date
naturedude
New member
madpenguin
Member
I had some questions about wiring a few appliances to two relay's in a j-box. Can you do this and have the line from the j-box plug into a surge suppresor? I want to have have both relays in one box, as well as two power cords attached to each coil, that then plug into my dual timer/temperature controller. This way I only have to plug the controller, the j-box and my main fan into a strip located in a section of my cabinet (then the strip to a wall outlet). I can then unplug and move the cabinet wherever I want. I know the two appliances and all equipment are 120v-125v (60hz), with total watts well below 200 and total amps around 7. The line from the outlet I want to use is to the main box (20a circuit) shared by one additional/unused outlet.
For the J-Box I want to hard-wire using good wire, so if i match the line with the same as the light fixtures and controller (18/3, 20A, 300v SJT) and then attach a FEMA 125v, 20A receptacle will that be O.K.? Also what type of conductor should I use and J-box?
The idea here is that I want the controlled appliances (duct fan for additional cooling and lights) to be more permanent, thus eliminating a lot of excess wire and saving some money by using less expensive controllers if possible. If not I don't mind buying a more expensive dual controller and going to plug and play route. I really want this thing looking nice, and swap out some wire to make it safer.
Missed this one...Sorry.
18/3 SJT is only rated @ 7A... If you meant 18/2 with ground then it's good for 10A.
I'm having a slightly hard time understanding your post but it sounds o.k. as I understand it. As long as you comply with 400.7 thru 400.10 you should be O.k (which it looks as if you do).
The only thing I would suggest is to use Type MC cable for your J-box load-out runs since it seems your hardwiring your relayed devices. I question whether that is up to code but it's better than having exposed romex feeding your 2 appliances IMO. If your 2 appliances are cord-and-plug, then wire your relays to a receptacle each. That be would alot better. That way everything would fall under 400.7(A)(6) and clasify as non premise wiring (if everything is cord-and-plug).
You have a good and proper train of thought for a moveable cab. Just make sure your up to code and you'll have an install you can be proud of.
Ampacities
madpenguin
Member
6hr Flip Flop . Would this plan work?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seeing how summer is here I am trying to cut down on heat , and after a little research this diagram is what i came up with . I was hoping someone with a little more electrical experience could approve or make suggestions on this . The board at the top of the pic is what I am currently using . I am just trying to figure out the relay thing and see if I can flip 3 lights after 6 hours during my 12 hour cycle on ,for a 6 light total with only 3 running at once . I am also trying to figure out how to change 1 outlit to 120 volts on my 240 v board .Preferebly with the 120 v (air condition) outlit powered 24 hr . If anyone has suggestions it would be greatly appreciated.
How is that going to cut down on heat if your always running 3 lights?
As for the 240 - 120 conversion, you'll have convert one hot leg into a neutral at the source. If your talking about retaining one half of a duplex @ 240 and the other half @ 120, you'd have to run a new wire for the neutral and pull both tabs on either side of the receptacle. I wouldn't advise doing that tho because your 240 receptacle will look identical to your 120. If you only have a 240 NEMA receptacle, then a 120v plug won't mate with it anyways so you would need to install a new receptacle.
Let me know if I'm not understanding correctly but it sounds as if your over thinking this one and nothing will be gained by the venture.
swampy_nz
Member
great thread.
could madpenguin or someone please explain how electricity moves through you house in a 240 volt system(i live in newzealand)
I know we have live,neutral and ground wires in our houses.does it flow through the live and back through the neutral.I checked my fusebox(which is nearly 40 years old)and all the earth(green) and neutral(black)wires terminate on a common bus.Can you get a shock from touching this bus or wiring more earths or neutrals into it.also,why do some appliances have a three pronged plug and others only two?
cheers.
could madpenguin or someone please explain how electricity moves through you house in a 240 volt system(i live in newzealand)
I know we have live,neutral and ground wires in our houses.does it flow through the live and back through the neutral.I checked my fusebox(which is nearly 40 years old)and all the earth(green) and neutral(black)wires terminate on a common bus.Can you get a shock from touching this bus or wiring more earths or neutrals into it.also,why do some appliances have a three pronged plug and others only two?
cheers.
madpenguin
Member
Under normal circumstances you shouldn't get shocked from your neutral bus, no. That doesn't mean it can't happen tho. I assume your on 50hz and somewhere around 240v in NZ. I'm sorry to say I have no experience with foreign electrical systems. I briefly covered some of the differences during my apprenticeship but I am certainly not qualified to help extensively (your other thread).
I still doubt you have 3 phase power tho. Not unless you live in a building that was once industrialized. Could be wrong tho.
The basic principle behind electricity remains the same but I'll still have to back out of your other thread. Sorry.
Your best bet is to hit a DIY forum of some kind. One that will answer home owner questions about electricity. I'm sure you'll find some NZ sparkies willing to help.
From what I found in some of my books, you should use a type-I plug. The 3 prong has a ground and the 2 prong doesn't.
I still doubt you have 3 phase power tho. Not unless you live in a building that was once industrialized. Could be wrong tho.
The basic principle behind electricity remains the same but I'll still have to back out of your other thread. Sorry.
Your best bet is to hit a DIY forum of some kind. One that will answer home owner questions about electricity. I'm sure you'll find some NZ sparkies willing to help.
From what I found in some of my books, you should use a type-I plug. The 3 prong has a ground and the 2 prong doesn't.
madpenguin
Member
I'll also answer the 240v current flow versus 120v current flow. It's good to know and you also asked. However, I'm explaining how a US derived 2 wire 240v system works. Almost positive that NZ/Aussie systems have 240v on one leg and then use the neutral for the return path. In North and Central America plus Japan, we derive 240v by way of 2 hot legs, each having 120v.
A 240v circuit doesn't need a neutral because contrary to the way a 120v works with a neutral, you'll actually get return current flow on one of the hot legs. As I explained earlier in this thread, voltage will be present when ever there is a difference in potential between 2 points, and voltage is what facilitates current flow. In the case of a 240v circuit, you would have 240v between both L1 and L2.
Here is a diagram of a Multi Wire Branch Circuit. It'll kill 2 birds with one stone by also explaining a 240v circuit.
Sorry Larry for not asking permission. Trying to compile info at one place and keep people from burning their house down. I'm sure you'll understand. That being the case, I'll use your text as well. :wink: This info can be found at:
http://www.thecircuitdetective.com/twocircuit.htm
A 240v circuit doesn't need a neutral because contrary to the way a 120v works with a neutral, you'll actually get return current flow on one of the hot legs. As I explained earlier in this thread, voltage will be present when ever there is a difference in potential between 2 points, and voltage is what facilitates current flow. In the case of a 240v circuit, you would have 240v between both L1 and L2.
Here is a diagram of a Multi Wire Branch Circuit. It'll kill 2 birds with one stone by also explaining a 240v circuit.
Sorry Larry for not asking permission. Trying to compile info at one place and keep people from burning their house down. I'm sure you'll understand. That being the case, I'll use your text as well. :wink: This info can be found at:
http://www.thecircuitdetective.com/twocircuit.htm
As packn2puff stated earlier, you must pigtail all neutrals in a MWBC. The reason why is explained above. It's not to prevent outlets downstream from going dead, but to prevent 240v being applied to 120v equipment. It will completely destroy equipment that has a high resistance, such as electronics. Tens of thousands of dollars worth of damage can be done in an office setting if you get an open neutral on a MWBC.A particular kind of circuitry often found in U.S. and Canadian homes mirrors the main wiring feeding the home from the power company. It is called a multiwire branch circuit but for our purposes it would be clearer to call it a two-circuit cable. It involves two hot wires sharing one neutral as their "return" path. The hot wires are 240 volts apart from each other and each is 120 volts from the neutral. This sort of arrangement saves a little wire and labor at installation time by using a cable containing black, red, and white wires between the panel and (usually just) the first outlet or switch box it is run to.
The two parts of this multi-circuit usually split apart from each other at that point and then behave like most other 120-volt circuits. But if you were to trace the flow of two-circuit current from the panel to that first box at a time when each part of the multicircuit was using different amounts of electricity, here is what you would find.
If 5 amps is flowing on hot wire A and 6 amps on hot wire B, the neutral path they share will not be found to be carrying 11 amps (as it would if the hots were, against code, fed from the same main wire through the same busbar). Instead, 1 amp would be flowing on the neutral, and at a given instant (remember this is alternating current) it would be flowing in the direction that would seem to complete the motion of current in wire B, and against the direction that would seem needed to complete wire A’s circuit. Where is A’s 5 amps of current "coming from" or "going to" at that instant? It is not connecting to the panel by way of the neutral; it is by way of wire B, driven by the 240 volts between them. Even wire B is sending 5 of its amps along wire A, with the 1 amp difference -- the imbalance -- going on the neutral. A’s 5 amps and 5 of B’s 6 amps are the same thing -- they are essentially a 240-volt circuit at that point, flowing from breaker to breaker and ultimately out to the two ends of the power company transformer’s coil. The whole system for the home is doing this all the time because the two hot main power company wires share one neutral from the panel back to the transformer.
There is a disturbing malfunction that can occur with a multi-circuit cable at the panel or a box it goes to.
If the neutral connection at the panel’s neutral bar or at a box the cable is run to goes bad, the two circuits will become entirely one 240-volt circuit, with one (former) circuit’s set of loads arranged in series with the other’s. And since their lights and appliances were not designed with such a voltage and connection scheme in mind, the result is that the items served by one former circuit will tend to run brighter than usual and those of the other dimmer. Damage can occur, especially to sensitive electronic equipment. If you notice a sustained weird dimming of lights in one part of the home and lights burning brighter than normal in another part, this is one possible cause. The other possibility is a similar situation occurring to the home’s whole system when the Main neutral is bad.
Double-circuit Outlets
The kitchen/dining area of U.S. homes wired in the 1960s (and a little before and after; also some family rooms during that time) often had two distinct 20-amp "appliance" circuits reaching each normal (duplex) receptacle by way of two-circuit cable. [Canada's version has been to require single-circuit 20-amp and/or two-circuit 15-amp receptacles at specified kitchen locations]. The idea was to distribute heavy loads more easily between the two required circuits. The fact that homeowners and home-dwellers were unaware of this made the idea almost useless, in my opinion. Anyway, by now this well-meaning idea has even backfired:
When homeowners or handymen now replace even just one of these worn or unfashionable receptacles without breaking away the metal tab that connects top and bottom halves of the hot side, the two circuits, which were purposely fed from opposite main busbars to let them share one neutral without overloading it, will pass a 240-volt short between them. If the breaker handles of the two circuits are tied together, as would be required by now, they will both trip, and someone will have to figure out what was done wrong. More often, the breakers are quite separate and the first one to trip thereby prevents the second from tripping. This actually leaves all the outlets still working because the circuit that didn’t trip now feeds its hotness through the unremoved metal tab to the other half of all the outlets. This means that the whole kitchen will now have only one circuit’s load capacity, instead of two. I have seen homes where one of these breakers has apparently been sitting tripped for years, with people wondering why they can’t run more than two appliances at once in their kitchen before the (good) breaker trips from an overload.
naturedude
New member
madpenguin
Member
Without seeing the spec sticker for the relay, I don't know.
There are tons of DIY flip flop posts here on icmag. They go into great detail about it. Use the advanced search function, select this sub forum and search for "flip flop DIY".
That, coupled with some info on this thread, and you should figure out how to wire everything correctly.
There are tons of DIY flip flop posts here on icmag. They go into great detail about it. Use the advanced search function, select this sub forum and search for "flip flop DIY".
That, coupled with some info on this thread, and you should figure out how to wire everything correctly.
Bodhi Roach
Member
240v panel to run 4K HPS
240v panel to run 4K HPS
Hello Madpenguin,
Thanks for your reply to my weird question in another thread.
I do have another query specifically for you.
Planning to run 4K HPS, 2 rooms, 2k per room.
Planning to use the panel as per attachment below.
It has a circuit breaker panel with 2-15Amp breakers for 120V
1-20Amp for 240V
1 older version, but still effective timer for the 240V.
The 2nd attachment is a diagram of the layout of the rooms and the power location.
Based on these pictures,
Thanks MadP and anyone else who has some constructive replies. I hope that by this question being answered, can also help anyone else with a similar issue before them.
Kind regards and be safe everyone~~~
240v panel to run 4K HPS
Hello Madpenguin,
Thanks for your reply to my weird question in another thread.
I do have another query specifically for you.
Planning to run 4K HPS, 2 rooms, 2k per room.
Planning to use the panel as per attachment below.
It has a circuit breaker panel with 2-15Amp breakers for 120V
1-20Amp for 240V
1 older version, but still effective timer for the 240V.
The 2nd attachment is a diagram of the layout of the rooms and the power location.
Based on these pictures,
- Is it a good idea to change the 240V plug sockets to a -| type socket so I don't ever accidentally plug a 120V into the 240V by accident?
- Not planning on using the 120V for anything as the panel will be located in the laundry room, plugged into the dryer receptacle. Plan to just plug into the wall for all the 120V items.
- The furthest 2-HPS will be about 35 feet away, the closer room is like 25 feet away, so the panel will have 4 cables running from the laundry room to the 2-2k rooms. Is this ok? are those distances too long? If so, what do you recommend, I was considering to run an 30 amp extension from the laundry room to the 1st 2k room and take the panel there. I just want to do it as safe as possible, saving money is not an issue, safety is the highest priority.
- Planning to keep all 4 ballast in the laundry room, if there is no ventilation will this be unsafe, I was reading about these wires only being tested to 60 celsius.
- What gauge would you recommend, people say 14/2 is ok, but is there anything wrong with using a 12/3 cable? the rubber coated stuff at home depot, just like the lawn mower extension cords. (I've got a few nice 100 foot 12 gauge outdoor extension cord that was used very little. Would this be ok to chop up into my light cables?
- This may sound very dumb so please dont flame me anyone, I have no one to ask and I trust madP bigtime, 1. cable from 240v receptactle to ballast, 2. 25 to 35 foot cable from ballast to 8 foot high location in the designated room with a female 240V socket on it, 3. male 240v socket to cable then to light, about a 6 footer. Is it better/safer to just run it direct with out any breaks in the line?
Thanks MadP and anyone else who has some constructive replies. I hope that by this question being answered, can also help anyone else with a similar issue before them.
Kind regards and be safe everyone~~~
Attachments
madpenguin
Member
Yes. Always a good idea. One too many tokes and you've fried any 120v appliance you may plug into that.
Sounds good. Just keep an eye on your total 120v wattage that you plug in to the wall. Also be aware of what else is on that circuit. Don't exceed 12A if it's a 15A circuit. That's assuming all your 120v equipment will be running more than 3 hours.
I really can't recommend doing that, as I stated earlier (now your earlier post makes sense). Don't like extension cords very much. Especially ones that pull that much amperage. What type of cable were you planning on running? Can't say that I've ever seen a 30A dryer cord that long. Not one that was premade anyway with the plug. If it's going to be exposed to damage, then don't do it. Exposed to damage being "imminent danger". Laying on the floor going thru the hall way, running thru doorways that can get closed on it, dogs/cats chewing on it, people stepping on it, portable dishwasher rolling over it. You name it, it can happen.
Which wires? You might want to look into this a tad more. There should be writing on the cable. It may not be printed with a different color but just stamped into the outer jacket so you might need to get a flashlight and/or magnifying glass.
Example : My lamp cord for a galaxy 600w is 16/3 STW @ 600v. The W indicates it's suitable for wet locations. I could look up Type ST in 400.5(A), which should be on the previous page, but I already know it's probably good for 10A. It also says (on the cable) dry locations is good @ 105c and wet locations is good for 60c.... Temperature ratings are based upon what type of environment they are used in. They aren't static.
Find out all the markings to make sure but you should be OK. As long as your not submersing your lamp cord in your reservoir, it should be rated much higher than 60c. We can derate the cable based on ambient air temperature in your laundry room but I doubt it would be worth it to find out. We could do it for fun anyway. I don't care. 86F is the baseline ambient air temp. If it goes higher, then you start derating in increments.
I'd need a cable designation to be sure but off hand I might venture a guess that those are only rated for 300v. If so, definitely no. Again, I assume you mean for your lamp cord (from the ballast to the lamp sockets). Your ballast is basically a mini transformer and the voltage that leaves is much higher than your starting voltage at your receptacles. Also know that distance from the ballast to the socket is key. You want to keep it to a minimum.
Don't do this. Definitely not. One unbroken run. Not only are those premade male and female ends probably only rated for 300v, but every time you splice or have a connection of any kind, it's a potential failure point. I've seen more extension cords burn up at their manufactured ends, I've lost count of them. Doesn't matter if they say 12/3 Heavy Duty. You still have connection points at either end prone to failure (more prone than you think).
I tell ya... If it were me, I'd old work a new 30A 10/3 run to the divider wall of your 2 grow rooms. Mount your board there to plug into your new dryer receptacle and then use the manufacturers cords for the ballasts. They should be 15' so will reach either room. 2 cords would have to run thru drywall which would be a code violation but.... Sometimes you can't help it.
It is really straight forward and well within the grasp of the average joe. But your money saving tactics are showing here.... :wink: Not a good idea IMO. I know these are trying financial times but you should do as I posted above. Sell an ounce or 2 from your first harvest to pay for the new 10/3 circuit materials and your time.
Your panelboard and timer look good. Top notch. Except your using stranded wire for 2 of your connections to ground. Those terminals are not rated for stranded wire. At the very least, pigtail them to a piece of #12 bare copper then attach. If you think that will blemish your panel, then go buy some green #12 THHN solid by the foot and redo your connections. Make sure there are no other stranded wires as well (like the blue/red wire). If they are, then pigtail/wirenut with solid for your connections at the breaker. You should also pigtail to the 240v receptacles as well if it's stranded. EMT conduit is also acceptable for grounding purposes, but I would probably pigtail to the back of your handy boxes anyway.
I'll also say that your more than likely over your continuous load rating for that 240 circuit. Post the amp draw of each ballast so we can make sure but I still bet your over.
If that's the case, you'll need to splurge for another timer and a 20A double pole breaker. Yank the 2 15A's along with the handy boxes that are fed by them. You said you didn't need 120v anyway... If you have any unused openings in your panelboard, they should be closed up. Looks like a plastic NM connector only it's blank. Also make sure that it is indeed a 30A breaker back at the main that will be protecting this panel and that atleast #10AWG is feeding it.
BTW, what floor are you working on? 1st floor? Do you have a basement? Is your main panel in the basement? Do you have exposed ceilings in the basement? Is your main panel closer to your grow rooms than the laundry room?
madpenguin
Member
Here is a really good article on derating if anyone is interested. Most times you'll never have to but it's good to know none-the-less.
http://ecmweb.com/nec/electric_conductor_size_matters/
http://ecmweb.com/nec/electric_conductor_size_matters/
i did an electrical safety thread a long while ago in this same forum.
alot of good info in it.
alot of info a non sparky wouldnt understand tho.
but if you have a feel for wiring, this will help you.
http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=57585&highlight=thoro's+electrical
alot of good info in it.
alot of info a non sparky wouldnt understand tho.
but if you have a feel for wiring, this will help you.
http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=57585&highlight=thoro's+electrical
madpenguin
Member
That is a good thread. Thanks for posting it. Your right, people really don't realize how bad extension cords are. Your average homeowner thinks they are the cure to everything. This is why there are so many house fires. I might argue the majority of house fires are extension cord related. Atleast a significant portion of them anyway.
I old worked new circuits to my GR before I started and made sure that nothing was plugged into an extension cord. Didn't account for one thing tho and sure enough, My timer that mated with the female end of a "Heavy Duty" extension cord melted and burned up. Just don't do it! I wound up knocking holes at every stud location and old worked an extension of that circuit properly via romex behind the walls and a new outlet box and receptacle where I needed it.
210.52(A)(1) Spacing
Receptacles shall be installed such that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.
This articles sole purpose is to combat extension cord usage. That articles says that if you stand in between 2 receptacles, there should be a receptacle 6 feet to your left and 6 feet to your right. That would mean, when setting boxes for receptacles, place one every 12 feet.
Any appliance or plug in lamp fixture you buy should have a cord that is 6 feet long. So, according to the NEC, you should be able to place that lamp fixture anywhere along the wall and have 2 receptacles you can plug it into (or rather, atleast one)
There is a similar article for kitchen counter top receptacles only the requirement is 2 feet. So a receptacle every 4 feet on a kitchen counter top.
Same deal. Toasters, microwaves, blenders and other kitchen related appliances will have a cord that is atleast 2 feet long. Where ever you set that toaster on your kitchen counter top, you should have 2 places to plug that into (if dead center of 2 receptacles). Otherwise, you should have atleast one receptacle to plug it into without having to use an extension cord.
I've tried to drill it into you guys but perhaps I haven't been quite adamant as I should be. If you guys are using extension cords in your grow room, please rethink that one and consider punching in some new receptacles where you need them. Your playing with fire. Literally.
I old worked new circuits to my GR before I started and made sure that nothing was plugged into an extension cord. Didn't account for one thing tho and sure enough, My timer that mated with the female end of a "Heavy Duty" extension cord melted and burned up. Just don't do it! I wound up knocking holes at every stud location and old worked an extension of that circuit properly via romex behind the walls and a new outlet box and receptacle where I needed it.
210.52(A)(1) Spacing
Receptacles shall be installed such that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.
This articles sole purpose is to combat extension cord usage. That articles says that if you stand in between 2 receptacles, there should be a receptacle 6 feet to your left and 6 feet to your right. That would mean, when setting boxes for receptacles, place one every 12 feet.
Any appliance or plug in lamp fixture you buy should have a cord that is 6 feet long. So, according to the NEC, you should be able to place that lamp fixture anywhere along the wall and have 2 receptacles you can plug it into (or rather, atleast one)
There is a similar article for kitchen counter top receptacles only the requirement is 2 feet. So a receptacle every 4 feet on a kitchen counter top.
Same deal. Toasters, microwaves, blenders and other kitchen related appliances will have a cord that is atleast 2 feet long. Where ever you set that toaster on your kitchen counter top, you should have 2 places to plug that into (if dead center of 2 receptacles). Otherwise, you should have atleast one receptacle to plug it into without having to use an extension cord.
I've tried to drill it into you guys but perhaps I haven't been quite adamant as I should be. If you guys are using extension cords in your grow room, please rethink that one and consider punching in some new receptacles where you need them. Your playing with fire. Literally.
Z
Zoolander
Man I guess I will never understand this stuff but this is a great thread
madpenguin
Member
Ugh... Really?
I wonder if that's indicative of most people who read this thread.... I try my best to word it as straight forward as possible.
Ask questions. What don't you understand? It'll be good for the majority I'm sure.
I wonder if that's indicative of most people who read this thread.... I try my best to word it as straight forward as possible.
Ask questions. What don't you understand? It'll be good for the majority I'm sure.
Bodhi Roach
Member
Hello MadP,
Thanks so much for your detailed reply
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodhi Roach
Hello Madpenguin,
Thanks for your reply to my weird question in another thread.
I do have another query specifically for you.
Planning to run 4K HPS, 2 rooms, 2k per room.
Planning to use the panel as per attachment below.
It has a circuit breaker panel with 2-15Amp breakers for 120V
1-20Amp for 240V
1 older version, but still effective timer for the 240V.
The 2nd attachment is a diagram of the layout of the rooms and the power location.
Based on these pictures,
1. Is it a good idea to change the 240V plug sockets to a -| type socket so I don't ever accidentally plug a 120V into the 240V by accident?
Yes. Always a good idea. One too many tokes and you've fried any 120v appliance you may plug into that.
Quote:
2. Not planning on using the 120V for anything as the panel will be located in the laundry room, plugged into the dryer receptacle. Plan to just plug into the wall for all the 120V items.
Sounds good. Just keep an eye on your total 120v wattage that you plug in to the wall. Also be aware of what else is on that circuit. Don't exceed 12A if it's a 15A circuit. That's assuming all your 120v equipment will be running more than 3 hours.
Quote:
3. The furthest 2-HPS will be about 35 feet away, the closer room is like 25 feet away, so the panel will have 4 cables running from the laundry room to the 2-2k rooms. Is this ok? are those distances too long? If so, what do you recommend, I was considering to run an 30 amp extension from the laundry room to the 1st 2k room and take the panel there. I just want to do it as safe as possible, saving money is not an issue, safety is the highest priority.
I really can't recommend doing that, as I stated earlier (now your earlier post makes sense). Don't like extension cords very much. Especially ones that pull that much amperage. What type of cable were you planning on running? Can't say that I've ever seen a 30A dryer cord that long. Not one that was premade anyway with the plug. If it's going to be exposed to damage, then don't do it. Exposed to damage being "imminent danger". Laying on the floor going thru the hall way, running thru doorways that can get closed on it, dogs/cats chewing on it, people stepping on it, portable dishwasher rolling over it. You name it, it can happen.
If I could run some sort of extension it would be secured to the wall at 8’
What type of wire would you recommend for this application? 14/3 or 12/3, the guy at the store was telling me that he wires all 240 ballasts with 14/3 and has never had any issues. Btw he is not an electrician.
Quote:
4. Planning to keep all 4 ballast in the laundry room, if there is no ventilation will this be unsafe, I was reading about these wires only being tested to 60 celsius.
Which wires? You might want to look into this a tad more. There should be writing on the cable. It may not be printed with a different color but just stamped into the outer jacket so you might need to get a flashlight and/or magnifying glass.
Example : My lamp cord for a galaxy 600w is 16/3 STW @ 600v. The W indicates it's suitable for wet locations. I could look up Type ST in 400.5(A), which should be on the previous page, but I already know it's probably good for 10A. It also says (on the cable) dry locations is good @ 105c and wet locations is good for 60c.... Temperature ratings are based upon what type of environment they are used in. They aren't static.
Find out all the markings to make sure but you should be OK. As long as your not submersing your lamp cord in your reservoir, it should be rated much higher than 60c. We can derate the cable based on ambient air temperature in your laundry room but I doubt it would be worth it to find out. We could do it for fun anyway. I don't care. 86F is the baseline ambient air temp. If it goes higher, then you start derating in increments.
Quote:
5. What gauge would you recommend, people say 14/2 is ok, but is there anything wrong with using a 12/3 cable? the rubber coated stuff at home depot, just like the lawn mower extension cords. (I've got a few nice 100 foot 12 gauge outdoor extension cord that was used very little. Would this be ok to chop up into my light cables?
I'd need a cable designation to be sure but off hand I might venture a guess that those are only rated for 300v. If so, definitely no. Again, I assume you mean for your lamp cord (from the ballast to the lamp sockets). Your ballast is basically a mini transformer and the voltage that leaves is much higher than your starting voltage at your receptacles. Also know that distance from the ballast to the socket is key. You want to keep it to a minimum.
Is this what I should get, a wire rated 600V, 14/3?If I have to run the lamp cords individually from the laundry room?
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6. This may sound very dumb so please dont flame me anyone, I have no one to ask and I trust madP bigtime, 1. cable from 240v receptactle to ballast, 2. 25 to 35 foot cable from ballast to 8 foot high location in the designated room with a female 240V socket on it, 3. male 240v socket to cable then to light, about a 6 footer. Is it better/safer to just run it direct with out any breaks in the line?
Don't do this. Definitely not. One unbroken run. Not only are those premade male and female ends probably only rated for 300v, but every time you splice or have a connection of any kind, it's a potential failure point. I've seen more extension cords burn up at their manufactured ends, I've lost count of them. Doesn't matter if they say 12/3 Heavy Duty. You still have connection points at either end prone to failure (more prone than you think).
I tell ya... If it were me, I'd old work a new 30A 10/3 run to the divider wall of your 2 grow rooms. Mount your board there to plug into your new dryer receptacle and then use the manufacturers cords for the ballasts. They should be 15' so will reach either room. 2 cords would have to run thru drywall which would be a code violation but.... Sometimes you can't help it.
This is what I would really love to be able o pull off. This is my unique scenario.
I have a power source that is a 200 amp panel in the shared attached garage with my neighbour. They use the garage multiple times a day and would surely know that I was doing something weird if they saw me in it. This power supply feeds to the laundry room which is for my exclusive use and is safe from prying eyes.
If I could somehow run from the dryer receptacle to the junction box to the right type of cable to the sub panel to the wall between the two work rooms, it would be a dream come true.
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This is my biggest issue, the electrical, as I have just read in this thread, having an electrician over is not an option. I do think that this is pretty straight forward, once I have the correct/safe formula, I am confident that I can carry out the task proficiently.
It is really straight forward and well within the grasp of the average joe. But your money saving tactics are showing here....
Not a good idea IMO. I know these are trying financial times but you should do as I posted above. Sell an ounce or 2 from your first harvest to pay for the new 10/3 circuit materials and your time.
Your panelboard and timer look good. Top notch. Except your using stranded wire for 2 of your connections to ground. Those terminals are not rated for stranded wire. At the very least, pigtail them to a piece of #12 bare copper then attach. If you think that will blemish your panel, then go buy some green #12 THHN solid by the foot and redo your connections. Make sure there are no other stranded wires as well (like the blue/red wire). If they are, then pigtail/wirenut with solid for your connections at the breaker. You should also pigtail to the 240v receptacles as well if it's stranded. EMT conduit is also acceptable for grounding purposes, but I would probably pigtail to the back of your handy boxes anyway.
Is this an absolute requirement? To replace these stranded wires? I could do it from looking at the pictures, but honestly, Im not 100% confident inside of a panel.
I'll also say that your more than likely over your continuous load rating for that 240 circuit. Post the amp draw of each ballast so we can make sure but I still bet your over.
If there is too much load, I can go with 3k on the sub panel and plug the last 1k into a 120v wall outlet
If that's the case, you'll need to splurge for another timer and a 20A double pole breaker. Yank the 2 15A's along with the handy boxes that are fed by them. You said you didn't need 120v anyway... If you have any unused openings in your panelboard, they should be closed up. Looks like a plastic NM connector only it's blank. Also make sure that it is indeed a 30A breaker back at the main that will be protecting this panel and that atleast #10AWG is feeding it.
BTW, what floor are you working on? 1st floor? Do you have a basement? Is your main panel in the basement? Do you have exposed ceilings in the basement? Is your main panel closer to your grow rooms than the laundry room?
__________________
Licensed Journeyman Electrician
All Electrical advice given is based on the 2008 NEC
and in no way should be listened to in the first place.
When in doubt, hire an Electrician.
Thanks again MadP,
Your help and advice is taken very seriously and it is mucho appreciated.
Thanks so much for your detailed reply
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodhi Roach
Hello Madpenguin,
Thanks for your reply to my weird question in another thread.
I do have another query specifically for you.
Planning to run 4K HPS, 2 rooms, 2k per room.
Planning to use the panel as per attachment below.
It has a circuit breaker panel with 2-15Amp breakers for 120V
1-20Amp for 240V
1 older version, but still effective timer for the 240V.
The 2nd attachment is a diagram of the layout of the rooms and the power location.
Based on these pictures,
1. Is it a good idea to change the 240V plug sockets to a -| type socket so I don't ever accidentally plug a 120V into the 240V by accident?
Yes. Always a good idea. One too many tokes and you've fried any 120v appliance you may plug into that.
Quote:
2. Not planning on using the 120V for anything as the panel will be located in the laundry room, plugged into the dryer receptacle. Plan to just plug into the wall for all the 120V items.
Sounds good. Just keep an eye on your total 120v wattage that you plug in to the wall. Also be aware of what else is on that circuit. Don't exceed 12A if it's a 15A circuit. That's assuming all your 120v equipment will be running more than 3 hours.
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3. The furthest 2-HPS will be about 35 feet away, the closer room is like 25 feet away, so the panel will have 4 cables running from the laundry room to the 2-2k rooms. Is this ok? are those distances too long? If so, what do you recommend, I was considering to run an 30 amp extension from the laundry room to the 1st 2k room and take the panel there. I just want to do it as safe as possible, saving money is not an issue, safety is the highest priority.
I really can't recommend doing that, as I stated earlier (now your earlier post makes sense). Don't like extension cords very much. Especially ones that pull that much amperage. What type of cable were you planning on running? Can't say that I've ever seen a 30A dryer cord that long. Not one that was premade anyway with the plug. If it's going to be exposed to damage, then don't do it. Exposed to damage being "imminent danger". Laying on the floor going thru the hall way, running thru doorways that can get closed on it, dogs/cats chewing on it, people stepping on it, portable dishwasher rolling over it. You name it, it can happen.
If I could run some sort of extension it would be secured to the wall at 8’
What type of wire would you recommend for this application? 14/3 or 12/3, the guy at the store was telling me that he wires all 240 ballasts with 14/3 and has never had any issues. Btw he is not an electrician.
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4. Planning to keep all 4 ballast in the laundry room, if there is no ventilation will this be unsafe, I was reading about these wires only being tested to 60 celsius.
Which wires? You might want to look into this a tad more. There should be writing on the cable. It may not be printed with a different color but just stamped into the outer jacket so you might need to get a flashlight and/or magnifying glass.
Example : My lamp cord for a galaxy 600w is 16/3 STW @ 600v. The W indicates it's suitable for wet locations. I could look up Type ST in 400.5(A), which should be on the previous page, but I already know it's probably good for 10A. It also says (on the cable) dry locations is good @ 105c and wet locations is good for 60c.... Temperature ratings are based upon what type of environment they are used in. They aren't static.
Find out all the markings to make sure but you should be OK. As long as your not submersing your lamp cord in your reservoir, it should be rated much higher than 60c. We can derate the cable based on ambient air temperature in your laundry room but I doubt it would be worth it to find out. We could do it for fun anyway. I don't care. 86F is the baseline ambient air temp. If it goes higher, then you start derating in increments.
Quote:
5. What gauge would you recommend, people say 14/2 is ok, but is there anything wrong with using a 12/3 cable? the rubber coated stuff at home depot, just like the lawn mower extension cords. (I've got a few nice 100 foot 12 gauge outdoor extension cord that was used very little. Would this be ok to chop up into my light cables?
I'd need a cable designation to be sure but off hand I might venture a guess that those are only rated for 300v. If so, definitely no. Again, I assume you mean for your lamp cord (from the ballast to the lamp sockets). Your ballast is basically a mini transformer and the voltage that leaves is much higher than your starting voltage at your receptacles. Also know that distance from the ballast to the socket is key. You want to keep it to a minimum.
Is this what I should get, a wire rated 600V, 14/3?If I have to run the lamp cords individually from the laundry room?
Quote:
6. This may sound very dumb so please dont flame me anyone, I have no one to ask and I trust madP bigtime, 1. cable from 240v receptactle to ballast, 2. 25 to 35 foot cable from ballast to 8 foot high location in the designated room with a female 240V socket on it, 3. male 240v socket to cable then to light, about a 6 footer. Is it better/safer to just run it direct with out any breaks in the line?
Don't do this. Definitely not. One unbroken run. Not only are those premade male and female ends probably only rated for 300v, but every time you splice or have a connection of any kind, it's a potential failure point. I've seen more extension cords burn up at their manufactured ends, I've lost count of them. Doesn't matter if they say 12/3 Heavy Duty. You still have connection points at either end prone to failure (more prone than you think).
I tell ya... If it were me, I'd old work a new 30A 10/3 run to the divider wall of your 2 grow rooms. Mount your board there to plug into your new dryer receptacle and then use the manufacturers cords for the ballasts. They should be 15' so will reach either room. 2 cords would have to run thru drywall which would be a code violation but.... Sometimes you can't help it.
This is what I would really love to be able o pull off. This is my unique scenario.
I have a power source that is a 200 amp panel in the shared attached garage with my neighbour. They use the garage multiple times a day and would surely know that I was doing something weird if they saw me in it. This power supply feeds to the laundry room which is for my exclusive use and is safe from prying eyes.
If I could somehow run from the dryer receptacle to the junction box to the right type of cable to the sub panel to the wall between the two work rooms, it would be a dream come true.
Quote:
This is my biggest issue, the electrical, as I have just read in this thread, having an electrician over is not an option. I do think that this is pretty straight forward, once I have the correct/safe formula, I am confident that I can carry out the task proficiently.
It is really straight forward and well within the grasp of the average joe. But your money saving tactics are showing here....
Your panelboard and timer look good. Top notch. Except your using stranded wire for 2 of your connections to ground. Those terminals are not rated for stranded wire. At the very least, pigtail them to a piece of #12 bare copper then attach. If you think that will blemish your panel, then go buy some green #12 THHN solid by the foot and redo your connections. Make sure there are no other stranded wires as well (like the blue/red wire). If they are, then pigtail/wirenut with solid for your connections at the breaker. You should also pigtail to the 240v receptacles as well if it's stranded. EMT conduit is also acceptable for grounding purposes, but I would probably pigtail to the back of your handy boxes anyway.
Is this an absolute requirement? To replace these stranded wires? I could do it from looking at the pictures, but honestly, Im not 100% confident inside of a panel.
I'll also say that your more than likely over your continuous load rating for that 240 circuit. Post the amp draw of each ballast so we can make sure but I still bet your over.
If there is too much load, I can go with 3k on the sub panel and plug the last 1k into a 120v wall outlet
If that's the case, you'll need to splurge for another timer and a 20A double pole breaker. Yank the 2 15A's along with the handy boxes that are fed by them. You said you didn't need 120v anyway... If you have any unused openings in your panelboard, they should be closed up. Looks like a plastic NM connector only it's blank. Also make sure that it is indeed a 30A breaker back at the main that will be protecting this panel and that atleast #10AWG is feeding it.
BTW, what floor are you working on? 1st floor? Do you have a basement? Is your main panel in the basement? Do you have exposed ceilings in the basement? Is your main panel closer to your grow rooms than the laundry room?
__________________
Licensed Journeyman Electrician
All Electrical advice given is based on the 2008 NEC
and in no way should be listened to in the first place.
When in doubt, hire an Electrician.
Thanks again MadP,
Your help and advice is taken very seriously and it is mucho appreciated.
