Genetic Drift?

[englishrick]

thanks hoos,,,im here for ya too man,,,your a good guy

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Rooting a cutting is a completely natural process.
Keeping a stem moist until it does what damp stems do (grow roots) is by no means "an unnatural process".

I once had a houseplant called a Tradescantia fluminensis which was always growing branches which would get too heavy for the stem to support. The branches break off, and wherever they lie on the damp ground, they take root. completely natural.

To root a cannabis cutting takes nothing more than sunshine and H2O... what is unnatural about that?

 

[hubcap]

Cloning is NOT a natural process ,, in ANY annual species of plant which have evolved to procreate in just one season.

i respectfully disagree. here's why, and its simple thinking, so please, bear with me if its not up to yalls level of sceintific/genetic study........and please, by all means, rebut if im off base and it can be explained better. im here to learn (not argue) like everyone else; and in this thread...between the jabs.....theres alot to learn.

but, ill get on with it...
........for one to see my side I'm going to classify "cloning" and "A shoot just happens to break off in nature and land perfectly in soil" as one and the same....because, in essence....they are.

Now, that being said......IF this MJ plant has a shoot that happens to fall off, and land perfectly in soil, all caused by natural causes (which CAN happen) then continues to grow and flower as any other MJ plant........
How would this be possible, IF cloning (as explained above) wasnt a NATURAL process to MJ.....
if it wasnt a natural reaction, it would simply die. it would never have the chance to re-root and grow.....correct? no?
im with sam....cloning, as in this instance, IS a natural optie for a plant.

"life finds a way."


but, ive been wrong before. am i again?

thanks to all the 'contributors' to this thread, too.
i had to go thru it three times, tho, and sort out the petty crap, but, it was worth it.....i can guarantee a good amount of growers new and old are paying attention to its 'edible' contents.

keep it up.


-cap

 

[DocLeaf]

Cheers rick It's not a competition,,, if it was i n i would win it,, lol

This thread has Sam the Skunkman making comments on it.!

Please let's keep it civil,, sure then we can all learn something more

Anyhow,,,

As we understand it "genetic drift" is a statistical observation,, that can only really be observed in large numbers of seed plant individuals from the same lineage (see random sampling). There's also plenty of chance involved,, like anything.

In clones ,,, then "drifting" is the notion that although 100's of growers have the same genetic clone stock,, (like Cheese),, they may now grow slightly differently, as a result of phenotypical pressure / environmental conditioning, and the husbandry/hygene the clone line has been subjected to in the past.

In this sense a clone could be described as having "drifted" away from its original condition as clone stock... but yo'd need to keep a load of clones around for a long time,, in different gardens (hands) to observe this.

Tony at Sagarmatha would be a cool-cat to chat with on this subject

Hope this helps

 

[DocLeaf]

Grat3fulhead and hubcap totally respect ya comments

May be what we should have said is,,

,,, cloning x100 stems from a annual cannabis plant and preventing them and the mother from flowering is not natural

Sure a cutting may fall down off a plant into soil on the ground,, but it would flower out in autumn into a small plant ,,, and you sure couldn't keep taking 100's of clones from it.

This is what we mean by "unnatural" ,, n.b. your house plant is't an annual species!

Basically cannabis has NOT evolved to propagate itself via clones,, so its a game of chance n luck,, n a good base of genetic stock

Peace n flowers

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Weed has so many mechanisms, all geared towards ultimate survival.
If a plant happens to be blown over in a windstorm, or knocked loose from it's firm footing by an animal, causing lots of stressful damage to the plant...and if just one branch happens to hit moist dirt, it can and most likely will root at that spot. This could allow the plant to survive when there could have been a possibility of it's demise.
IMO, this feature is simply another process that the plant can undergo, and I see no way to view it as an unnatural type occurrence.
Although I do see the point that the rooting of a part of a plant in the wild would be a very rare occurrence...as far as seasonal occurrences go. I just don't think we are forcing an unnatural even when we clone.

*Just food for thought...whatever thought eats...
Some would argue that as we are a part of nature, that any interaction by us is in fact a natural occurrence.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Seems like splitting hairs, doc...
Natural is not defined by how often something happens, it is defined by the processes taking place.

I feed my cat every day.
If the cat were wild, then it would most likely not get to eat every day.
Is feeding my cat unnatural?

Is cloning in some way supernatural, or preternatural?


To carry your concept to it's logical conclusion, any sort of planned cultivation or agriculture is unnatural.

 

[hubcap]

yeah yeah...full agreement, hoosier. VERY rare occurrance, indeed, but can happen.

 

[englishrick]

i agree with hoos,,,,,,

if it was not a natural survival prosess the ability/expreshion would not exist,,,,this is actualy a manin part of my crazy evoloution concepts

 

[DocLeaf]

Survival mechanism in plants aren't always habitual... a security policy in some cultigens perhaps ,, but overall annual plants dont rely on it as a way of doing the tango.

Cloning is a reasonably new concept ,, in the grand scale of horticulture (Victorian),, and amid cannabis growers its only 30-40 years old... indoor light and so on..

Agreed on semantics

"natural" (for us) = seed, soil, flowers ,, without any intervention... maybe the odd nose

Let's get back to the subject of "drifting genetics",,, that's way more interesting

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I'm not in the USA fam. If growing commercially from seeds then we like to work mostly from IBLs (in bred lines)... originally blended from hybrid stock in Alaska and Europe. GrowDocs Angel Dust and Bubble Dust were the best genetics we found for working in numbers from seed... just because they are so consistant and reliable.

Sounds like they are hybrid, then inbred, but still hybrids?
I am pretty sure they are not Homozygous are they?
All Cannabis is Heterozygous unless made by man to be Homozygous, and no one is doing it that I have heard of.

Cloning is NOT a natural process ,, in ANY annual species of plant which have evolved to procreate in just one season. Simply botany man... we've studied and worked as a horticulturalist, in the legal field for decades also

Most cannabis cloning is done by man, but for sure it can and does happen when lower branches lay on moist earth outdoors or in greenhouses, and with no cuts of any kind until you separate the plant after rooting. Anyway do you use lights? Aren't they much more unnatural then clones?

'A-sexual' methods of propagation are then used in clone culture over cannabis,, which artificially promotes and sustains root and then tissue growth via the manipulation of photo-period and environment.

Sure thing,, you're Sam the Skunkman,, and no-one said any other

We used to sell trays of clones for $$$ when intensively working trays of clones (for these clients),, we often noticed that our mother-plant stock become less productive with age - possibly due to our topery skills... but also due to over-working them as productive mums.

Mother-plants / clones / genetics that gave only a few clones every-few weeks were useless to us (under 10,800 watts) and were soon disguarded. Productive mothers that gave the best quality dope and yields under intensive systems were however highly valued... Jack Herer was the best 'hybrid' to work from seed to clones,, becuase it displayed the most hybrid vigor,, and gave a 98% return on rooted clones... tray after tray.

I grow mothers in the ground and replace them once or twice a year when they get to big. I can get 1000 pieces from a large mother, several times if needed. Keeping them veg for 10-20 years is no problem, I have done it with hundreds of different varieties.

Moreover we know of only a few clones ,, Blues and Cheese (your Skunk #1) that are over 15years old.. and these arent the most productive mothers we've seen... because they grow slow... just their quality keeps them around.

Most other mothers give up the ghost and pre-flower themselves after a few years... but we never said that has squat to do with "drifting"

If anyone has a feminized clone over 5 years old,, we'd love to see it

Peace n flower power

I have one that is 10-15 years old, but it is just skunk #1 and don't look different in any way. And it has not lost vigor in any way that I can tell.

-SamS

 

[bombadil.360]

branches of grape-vines, when they hit the floor, root pretty fast too.
once it roots, you cut the branch off the main plant, dig the rooted branch up, and you have a new grape plant.

 

[DocLeaf]

It's difficult to get x25-40 nice cuttings,, from a nice healthy mother plant,, every 2-4 weeks indoors man... that all root.. hehe

I'm not in any position,, or need,, to debate with you man.. subjectively our opinions are our own,, and we do take what you say about cannabis on board peace n love

Sounds like they are hybrid, then inbred, but still hybrids?
I am pretty sure they are not Homozygous are they?
All Cannabis is Heterozygous unless made by man to be Homozygous, and no one is doing it that I have heard of.

Please hear it here...

GrowDoc's seed lines are very homogeneous yes in growth and flowering patterns, and time,, medi breeder that has in-bred his own lines for years now ,, to find suitable traits for medi. users. GrowDoc's as rare as hens teeth,, but still and extremely reputable medi. breeder,, that works from seeds in numbers,, and has excellent feedback from all aspects of the community.



Hope this helps

 

[furious george]

Basically cannabis has NOT evolved to propagate itself via clones

It sure has, otherwise we wouldn't be able to clone it with such ease.

Doc you seem confused and your confusing others with loose terminology and inconsistent opinions. To recap you've said:

IME old mother plants from sativa dom. hybrid lineage grow old,, and want to flower out,, they pre-flower in the nodes in veg and gradually become less productive, as mothers and as clones... when worked heavy

IME old mother plants from indica dom. hybrid lineage grow gnarled,, and the offspring clones are difficult to root,, and grow with less energy than their early predecessors... when worked heavy (not possible really unless you have 100s of clones to clone)..lol

Some sativa/indica clones like Cheese have been cloned for years,, and treated like s***, but they still do the business for cats,, it's an IBL from Sam yo,, but we still bet they grow a tad slower in veg that yesterday,, who knows? Ask one of the old cats

My opinion is my own,, based on growing erbs,, ppl can agree or disagree,,

So in this post you're saying in that Hybrid plants grow "old/gnarled" and are "less productive/grow with less energy", Cheese being an exception, because thats "an IBL".

Then in other posts you express the exact opposite opinion.

Did anyone else notice that domesticated IBLs give a low return of rooted clones than hybrids ,, under the same conditions ???

We always guessed it had something to do with semi-wooded stems...

and then in praise of hybrids

hybridization where the "vigor" comes from. inbred lines are less vigorous overall.

So which is it Doc?

 

[DocLeaf]

Sure Cheese/Skunk#1 isn't the best plant for cloning... grows slow and gives only 80% return on full trays. Neither were the "dutch" Skunk #1 seeds homogeneous... they ranged from 20 - 200g per plant on average.

Hope this helps... I'm out of this thread so you folks can discuss "genetic drifting".. peace ALL

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

homogenous and homozygous are two different things. A crop of heterozygous F1 hybrids will all be very homogenous (uniform) phenotypically.

homozygote |ˌhōmōˈzīgōt|
noun Genetics
an individual having two identical alleles of a particular gene or genes and so breeding true for the corresponding characteristic. Compare with heterozygote .

heterozygote |ˌhetərōˈzīgət; -ˈzīgōt|
noun Genetics
an individual having two different alleles of a particular gene or genes, and so giving rise to varying offspring. Compare with homozygote .

homogenous |həˈmäjənəs|
adjective
Biology old-fashioned term for homologous .

homologous |hōˈmäləgəs; hə-|
adjective
having the same relation, relative position, or structure, in particular

 

[cannaboy]

The only way to stop genetic drift is first to take clones of healthy mothers and use the best bits,, root them under NATURAL light and grow on for a season to become new mothers moved under artificial light EVERY YEAR!!!!,,,, A breader must first establish if his Soon to be P1's are vibal for many many clone generations,, If this is to be a £$£$ marketed product,, Hetrozigous plants are Naturally unstabel f1 hybrids (ARE NOT AT ALL THE SAME!!!) as the diocidious species is anual and usually propergates by seeds!!! The unlikely process of a plant self layering itself to me is not ABSURED. I do belive that A good contribuator to the gene pool will express in such a way as survival but man will play in the re survival and any re work!! So genurally there is 1 of each... And the season is over...I CAN SEE CANNABIS PLANTS UNTOUCHED BY MAN KEEPING A TRAIT FOR FLOOR HUGGING BRANCHES BOATH FEMALE AND MALE SO A NATURAL F1 BACKCROSS COULD HAPPEN VIA OPEN POLLINATION AND A NATURAL RE_VEG GOOD TOO. keeping lines in stasis is a touchy subject with unclean tools and rooms for cannabis production which can lead to stresses and these are not tested for yet so ARGUMENTS are neither here nor there... Anyway a CANNABIS a hetrozigous species naturally in nature only becomes homozigous for some visibal traits that breed true naturally and by the hand of man and it is in this interlocking of alles in the loci by inbreeding genetypes that are identical/sister genotypes or from the village up stream so to speak these alles that match in sequence make a homoginous trait that is set in stone for genetype of these particular traits, This makes homozigous lines that breed true for 1 or more trait, THAT NORMALLY DON'T DRIFT Depending on howmany sister genotypes one is working with,, and the traits which are locked down that breed true CANNABIS CAN BECOME 100% HOMOGENIOUS ONLY BY MAN AND THIS IS NOT GOOD!!!!!NATURALLY IT WOULD PICK SELF DEFENCE AND VIGOUR HEALTH ISSUES AND KEEP ITS IDENTITY FROM FROM DRIFTING< SEASON ECT WOULD EFFECT THE GENOME AND EPISTATIC GENES .. TRUE If the lines had hermis in,, hermis are a usefull tool as the progeny from its self is usualluy usless unless it is a reverce hermi which usually creats a all female seed crop that if it is s2'd or r1'd a few times and holds stabel then you can create a stabel source for female genotype over male giving more visibal selection in the IBL part of a good breeders/Natures work or a superiour gene structuer can be looked into further to see if it is worth persuing.. To create a line is hard work and needs to derive from somewhere relyable.AND THIS IS NOT DONE BY MOST OF THE BREEDERS OF THE STUFF WE GROWN NOWERDAYS....., ALL THE OLD LINES ARE GOOD (IMHO) EACH GENERATION NOW IS A DRIFT AWAY EACH TIME FROM A GOOD THING WE HAD, not anywhere but SHANTI, SAM S, DJ and some of the dudes in the books Im reading and NOT MANY OTHERS... Have Stabel Stock Proven That Doesn't Drift..

 

[englishrick]

if you can make a good trueF1 then your a good breeder,,,,if you can put allele in Homozygote positions then your a SUPA BREEDER,,,

^^thats the level i dream of!

0.75, 0.875, 0.9375, 0.9688, 0.9844 0.9922,,

 

[DocLeaf]

Nice post Gr3atfulhead semantics , especially in academia vary from coast to coast,, i.e you folks use the term "pheno" to denote a specific cultigen or "specimen",, whereas phenotype means something different over here. We've never heard a lecturer at horticultural college say "look at this pheno" that would be complete nonsense,, they'd say "look at this specimen".

Hermaphrodites / self seeding plants aren't really ever a nice trait CannaBoy... neither are plants that fall down and root themselves... both tax energy from the parent - energy that could otherwise be focused on plant growth.

Hope this helps

To add,,, the majority of "breeders" and ppl working with plants are not empirical in a botanical sense. They work with plants as a hobby, and because they enjoy it,, rather than scientifically for statistical value,,, mainly because cannabis is still prohibited and the uptake in botanical studies in the field is much lower than in other fields.

With decriminalization comes hope.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Hermaphrodites / self seeding plants aren't really ever a nice trait CannaBoy... neither are plants that fall down and root themselves... both tax energy from the parent - energy that could otherwise be focused on plant growth.

Hope this helps

FYI, The self rooting plants I referred to do not fall down, rather it is the bottom branches laying on the ground that root.
When I grow big plants in the ground, 6 feet to 15 feet tall, they all want to root if I leave the bottom branches on, so I prune all the branches off, to 2 or 3 feet tall from the ground.
-SamS