Genetic Drift?

[ROJO145]

I just think you have a tendency to carry concepts past their realities.

LOL,ya think!!Im startin to feel bad for him,he hasnt got a clue and has yet to even come close yet he keeps swingin away,all that knowledge trapped in his head,shame its ALL wrong!!Every time,
I bet your the only guy in your country with an "EVOLUTIONARY STRATEGY" LOL

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

http://marvel.com/universe/High_Evolutionary

 

[Dalaihempy]

ive had strains that did very well for for for a couple years, and then out of nowhere, the strain will mutate into bullshit.

this happened to me on a strain i ran called kushberry and now my third dimension has done it. the strain will be kill for a couple years and then, it will not grow anything like it did previously and start to herm really bad, causing tons of small immature seeds to form, rendering the bud almost useless. both these strains were from seed.

what causes this?

i know people will say, if you clone from a clone from a clone ect, this will happen. i say bullshit because ive ran strains for 4+ years before and it never happened and is still going around the bay area growing fine 8+ years later.....

Hi well i have run clones from clones with no difference and i think the real question here is not genetic drift but what coursed the line or lines to hermie and renda the line and product to complete shit.

Are the plants the clones from fem seeds ?.

Were the plants in any way stresst from the time they were cloned to the time they showed roots and then veged and flowerd.

Were they flowed past there normal time as some lines tend to show nannas if they are flowed to long i think some in here seam to be looking at the most complicated of reasons instead of the more simple and veiled possibility's for the lines hermieing.

I don't think you can call a plant a mutant or the line is mutating just because it hermied ether.

A clone from a clone or a clone from a seed plant is the exact copy of the plant it came from and it don't matter if the clone was from a strong larger top branch or a lower weaker branch it will still Carrie across the same genetic info just will take a little longer to establish its self to the better cut.

 

[Tom Hill]

Are the plants the clones from fem seeds ?.

Hempy that can of worms -in the absence of further description- is so dead bro. It's like asking if it is from planet earth . Likewise the implication that a late hermie is somehow exempt from scrutiny, wtf. -T

 

[jack DA reaper]

LOL,ya think!!Im startin to feel bad for him,he hasnt got a clue and has yet to even come close yet he keeps swingin away,all that knowledge trapped in his head,shame its ALL wrong!!Every time,
I bet your the only guy in your country with an "EVOLUTIONARY STRATEGY" LOL

Your missing Yummy budd aint ya-its good You would think yums dad fathered a bastard child on a trip to the UK, Englishrick

 

[ROJO145]

Your missing Yummy budd aint ya-its good You would think yums dad fathered a bastard child on a trip to the UK, Englishrick

some men just cant be reached,and no,definately NOT missin that non smoker!!I have issues when it comes to retards,thats why im goin to hell

 

[englishrick]

Hempy that can of worms -in the absence of further description- is so dead bro. It's like asking if it is from planet earth . Likewise the implication that a late hermie is somehow exempt from scrutiny, wtf. -T

Ya,,,Ya and more Ya!,,,,,

i think you helped kill this fem issue long ago tom,,,,,,

Your missing Yummy budd aint ya-its good You would think yums dad fathered a bastard child on a trip to the UK, Englishrick

lol,,,quality !!,,,^^^that is pretty funny,,,i feel like ive got fans

 

[texsativa]

In theory taking a cutting should lead one with an exact genetic copy of the parent because there is no sexual recombination.

However, there will still be mutations occurring in the cutting as polymerase is not perfect, as well as environmental influences causing what changes in expression they may...among other things...

 

[DocLeaf]

Your missing Yummy budd aint ya-its good You would think yums dad fathered a bastard child on a trip to the UK, Englishrick

some men just cant be reached,and no,definately NOT missin that non smoker!!I have issues when it comes to retards,thats why im goin to hell

Haha... wink wink,, but how you fassies gonna cope,, when englishrick brings the avalanche down? Seriously how you gonna feed each other ? This dude rolls on fat jars of primo erb ,,, 'OG Kush x Super Silver Haze',, and 'Free For All style',, the likes of which I n I dont even think rick needs to start explaining to player-haters

Please find a little bit of respect dudes,, it grows a long way!! Sure englishrick may appear to be confused at times,, but this is because his thirst for knowledge is way more advanced than folks give him credit for.

(if you wanna be nasty and bully ppl,, then please pick on me) !

This is a polite warning!!

"The higher the monkey climbs the more him expose".

 

[DocLeaf]

In theory taking a cutting should lead one with an exact genetic copy of the parent because there is no sexual recombination.

However, there will still be mutations occurring in the cutting as polymerase is not perfect, as well as environmental influences causing what changes in expression they may...among other things...

Clones of 'hybrid' clones loose "vigor" generatively. How far this can be considered a "mutation" however, is debatable. Most notably dwarfism occurs in these lines and they grow much slower in veg. over time. The flowering period however is sometimes reduced in old clone-lines that really just want to flower.

Cloning is an unnatural process in cannabis ,, because it is an annual.

Hope this helps

 

[englishrick]

im not on Heads level when it comes to knolage of genetics,,,an Head is right when he says i take concepts past there logical boundrys,,,but like Einstein said,,"emagination is more important than knolage"..my emagination is strong and i can spark intrest ,,,so maybe i do serve a purppose,,,,,i am part of this discution,,,and without ALL the participants it would not be what it is,,,i am enjoying this thread,,,i love its imperfections and as people try to correct the faults it gets even better,,,

i rely do apreceate everyones contributions,,,,,,its an absoloute pleasure to read threads with people sutch as yourselvs

 

[furious george]

Clones of 'hybrid' clones loose "vigor" generatively.

How so? What do you think is different about a hybrid clone and a pure landrace in this respect?

How far this can be considered a "mutation" however, is debatable.

I believe the definitions of mutation have been pretty well covered in this thread. There really shouldn't be much room for debate.

notably dwarfism occurs in these lines and they grow much slower in veg. over time.

This doesn't sound like clones loosing vigour, it sounds more like you are describing plant lines infected with pathogenic bacteria e.g. http://www.pnas.org/content/106/15/6416.abstract .

is an unnatural process in cannabis ,, because it is an annual.

Hope this helps

From the sensible posts in this thread a reader can learn that such changes (as described by the OP) in lines of plants are extremely unlikely to be due to genetic mutation. Epigenetic influences may cause some alteration in phenotypic expression, but the bottom line is that the vast majority of such experiences of clone lines degenerating will be attributable to pathogens.

You seem to be implying that the problem experienced can be explained by the idea that clones taken from 'hybrid' clones just lose vigour, (debatably to mutation) and as a result turn dwarf and veg slowly.

With all those credentials below your name I would have hoped for something with a little bit more info to support your assertions. Sorry to moan, but I'm afraid your post just confuses rather than helps.

 

[DocLeaf]

attributable to pathogens.

You hit the nail on the head

The more times you clone the more wounds you make. When in clone mode we'd like to rely on x4 mother plants from hybrid-stock to produce 50-100 viable clones,, with energy intact,, every 4weeks. The only thing we found that did the job was Jack Herer,, and we'd grow new mothers from new seeds every 12-16months to maintain the vigor in lineage.

IME old mother plants from sativa dom. hybrid lineage grow old,, and want to flower out,, they pre-flower in the nodes in veg and gradually become less productive, as mothers and as clones... when worked heavy

IME old mother plants from indica dom. hybrid lineage grow gnarled,, and the offspring clones are difficult to root,, and grow with less energy than their early predecessors... when worked heavy (not possible really unless you have 100s of clones to clone)..lol

Some sativa/indica clones like Cheese have been cloned for years,, and treated like s***, but they still do the business for cats,, it's an IBL from Sam yo,, but we still bet they grow a tad slower in veg that yesterday,, who knows? Ask one of the old cats

My opinion is my own,, based on growing erbs,, ppl can agree or disagree,, that's cool,, one love

Hope this helps

Peace n flowers,,

 

[texsativa]

Clones of 'hybrid' clones loose "vigor" generatively. How far this can be considered a "mutation" however, is debatable. Most notably dwarfism occurs in these lines and they grow much slower in veg. over time. The flowering period however is sometimes reduced in old clone-lines that really just want to flower.

Cloning is an unnatural process in cannabis ,, because it is an annual.

Hope this helps

Environmental includes stressing including viral stressing, which may alter gene expression, although not necessarily causing mutations, although it certainly may. I am willing to bet at least 1/4-1/2 the plant's genome is viral in origin anyways, just like the human genome, although in this case it may be evolutionary advantageous.

 

[OMountainMix]

If you are constantly replacing your mothers and not letting them get old, then you wouldn't constantly be wounding the mother by making clones. If I understand, at least . . . .

I think that people are having this problem, even when they don't keep the same mother around forever.

If I am not mistaken, if someone does want to keep a mother around for longer than a few months, they need to put it outside to reinvigorate it . . . .

I was thinking myself while reading that perhaps this happens if a strain becomes infected with a virus or something . . . .

I don't see any real genetic reason for a strain to start doing this otherwise, unless the person is cloning from the same mother over a period of years. It doesn't sound like anyone who is having the problem is keeping the same mother that long . . .

Still interested and reading!

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

WTF???

Clones of 'hybrid' clones loose "vigor" generatively. How far this can be considered a "mutation" however, is debatable. Most notably dwarfism occurs in these lines and they grow much slower in veg. over time. The flowering period however is sometimes reduced in old clone-lines that really just want to flower.

Cloning is an unnatural process in cannabis ,, because it is an annual.

Hope this helps

First of all 99% of the seeds or clones available in the USA are hybrids, do you understand that?

As for cloning being an unnatural process, what do you mean like using artificial lights, or hydroponics, or all female seeds, or hybrids between Indica's and Sativa's? Or in greenhouses, heating or darkening? Or maybe applying natural bio-controls to control pests? Growing Cannabis in-vitro? I could go on and on but I think you get the idea...


BTW, I have made and grown thousands of hybrids, as well as thousands of land races, I never saw a difference in cloning ability over time, I do see differences in vigor between hybrids and their parent lines. An f1 hybrid often has increased vigor, but after 20 years they still do.
-SamS

 

[DocLeaf]

Nice Sam,, you always get us thinking

WTF???

First of all 99% of the seeds or clones available in the USA are hybrids, do you understand that?

I'm not in the USA fam. If growing commercially from seeds then we like to work mostly from IBLs (in bred lines)... originally blended from hybrid stock in Alaska and Europe. GrowDocs Angel Dust and Bubble Dust were the best genetics we found for working in numbers from seed... just because they are so consistant and reliable.

As for cloning being an unnatural process, what do you mean like using artificial lights, or hydroponics, or all female seeds, or hybrids between Indica's and Sativa's? Or in greenhouses, heating or darkening? Or maybe applying natural bio-controls to control pests? Growing Cannabis in-vitro? I could go on and on but I think you get the idea...

Cloning is NOT a natural process ,, in ANY annual species of plant which have evolved to procreate in just one season. Simply botany man... we've studied and worked as a horticulturalist, in the legal field for decades also

'A-sexual' methods of propagation are then used in clone culture over cannabis,, which artificially promotes and sustains root and then tissue growth via the manipulation of photo-period and environment.

BTW, I have made and grown thousands of hybrids, as well as thousands of land races, I never saw a difference in cloning ability over time, I do see differences in vigor between hybrids and their parent lines. An f1 hybrid often has increased vigor, but after 20 years they still do.
-SamS

Sure thing,, you're Sam the Skunkman,, and no-one said any other

We used to sell trays of clones for $$$ when intensively working trays of clones (for these clients),, we often noticed that our mother-plant stock become less productive with age - possibly due to our topery skills... but also due to over-working them as productive mums.

Mother-plants / clones / genetics that gave only a few clones every-few weeks were useless to us (under 10,800 watts) and were soon disguarded. Productive mothers that gave the best quality dope and yields under intensive systems were however highly valued... Jack Herer was the best 'hybrid' to work from seed to clones,, becuase it displayed the most hybrid vigor,, and gave a 98% return on rooted clones... tray after tray.

Moreover we know of only a few clones ,, Blues and Cheese (your Skunk #1) that are over 15years old.. and these arent the most productive mothers we've seen... because they grow slow... just their quality keeps them around.

Most other mothers give up the ghost and pre-flower themselves after a few years... but we never said that has squat to do with "drifting"

If anyone has a feminized clone over 5 years old,, we'd love to see it

Peace n flower power

 

[hoosierdaddy]

LOL,That expalins everything!!Rick got dough,lol,and he bought you to huh Doc!!Fuck Rick and Fuck You,I already know enuf about your circle from the web,buncha retards ridin each others dick!!I got fat jars a primo herb and dont need no retards money or help!!Some do I guess huh Doc?He appears confused but thats because his thirst is so great!!!CLASSIC

It is you that's confused, ROJO145.
I have not seen you post anything that would be worth anyone's time reading. Absolutely nothing. You are not a very good asset to this board, really. All you have is bad juju...and bad juju should be avoided.

I'd cull 1000 of you for one Rick or Doc.

 

[DocLeaf]

DocLeaf's not for sale... sorry no-one can buy me.. do some research.. lol

Anyhow this thread went off track..

Did anyone else notice that domesticated IBLs give a low return of rooted clones than hybrids ,, under the same conditions ???

We always guessed it had something to do with semi-wooded stems...

Peace n flowers

 

[englishrick]

your wrong and your being nasty Rojo,,,,, ,,atleast im polite when im wrong,,,+ you are now fully off topic!!!,,

me and doc have totaly different opinions [especialy when it comes to feminization],,,,his crew is into bio growing,,,i am strictly a hydro grower,,,he thinks his style of growing is the best and i think mine is the best,,we have a healthy friendship...ive known him for years on icmag an ive got love for the guy,,,comon man,,,,yeh ive got bud,,just like every other weedhead sat at his computer reading icmag "i hope",,,,the main point is that i aint got a bad heart, an im not sat here weedless,,,,doc was just backin me up to the best of his abillity,,,thats why me an doc are friends,,,,id do the same for him, but i dont allways agree with him,,,,,thats the deal i have with my friends,,,,money is a joke bro, dont make it petty

i value docs friendship so im gona go ahead and be cool

thanks doc,,,yeh it helps,,,i dont allways agree with you on your concepts 100% but i support you 110%!,,,did you read Allard yet?

RESPECT!!




ps,,,sam is too good!!..