FRANKIE1579
Member
Strangest thing is, this pathogen has not inhibited initial rooting. Have consistently got roots within 7 days of cutting. Makes it hard to tell for certain if they are contaminated, only way is lab tests and more money.
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Fusarium Spp.
- Thread starter FRANKIE1579
- Start date
FRANKIE1579
Member
Figured I'd post a few pics for reference.
Relatively healthy looking up top
Stem discoloration
Red/Tan roots
Relatively healthy looking up top
Stem discoloration
Red/Tan roots
C
chris harris
Hat's off to you for your perseverance. Win or lose I thank you for sharing your battle. It all looks similar to what I dealt with. My money is on it being systemic. I'm rooting for you.
I have been battling the same problem for 4 yrs...
Literally tried everything... umpteen 1000's of dollars spent..
Changed locations, strains etc, etc...
IT ALWAYS COMES BACK!!!
Im tagging your thread in hopes that you get some results that we could not...
I could Never 100% identify the problem however it put everyone in our area out of business...
Good luck!!!
Literally tried everything... umpteen 1000's of dollars spent..
Changed locations, strains etc, etc...
IT ALWAYS COMES BACK!!!
Im tagging your thread in hopes that you get some results that we could not...
I could Never 100% identify the problem however it put everyone in our area out of business...
Good luck!!!
FRANKIE1579
Member
Just an update. I ended up tossing everything. The risk was too great trying to salvage potentially infected cuts.
Spent all week cleaning thoroughly, spraying every surface with a 1/50 dilution rate of Zerotol 2.0 (Hydrogen Dioxide 29% Peracetic Acid 4%). Repeated 3 times.
Next step is ozone generator at 40 mg/l for 24 hours. To use ozone generators properly the area needs to be below 70 F, maximum air circulation in room and low humidity. Ozone was lethal to Fusarium at 20 mg/l for 20 mins so I'm going overkill.
Following that will spraying every surface in rooms down with Activated EM-1 (beneficial anaerobic bacteria)
After this any rooms with active air exchange are getting Hepa filters installed on intakes. As added safety measure we are spraying ZeroTol 2.0 in the outside areas near intakes where spores may be residing. Then following that up with EM-1 as well.
RO water output will have UV sterilizers installed. Its very possible some of the spores got into the RO filter while connecting/disconnecting lines and is now residing in biofilm lining the RO units.
Every reservoir, pump, tray and water line is getting thrown away. Anything that held moisture for a prolonged period. Read this article on how much disinfection biofilm can handle. You won't get rid of it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4879406/
Saying that, despite all these measures, I am fully aware some spores will remain. Its impossible to kill every single one. The only success stories I have read on here were from Thcvhunter, OutlawTree and CrusaderRabbit. All of them went with a fully organic/probiotic route. Pretty much accepting that the spores are still around but making sure the root zone is the most inhospitable area possible for this fungus, which is the area it needs to proliferate initially.
I also spoke at length with a consultant in the area, and heard from one of his clients that had a large operation that ran smoothly for 2 years, then suddenly, well our exact story. This carried on for 5 years. They thought the building was cursed. They did a complete tear down and fumigation and replaced most of equipment and it came back the next round. Thats when the consultant (he's a mycologist)was brought on, and he introduced them to all organic/beneficial microbes. It's been 3 years and the same spot has been running smoothly.
I'm leery of a magical solution to anything. However there are success stories regarding this from people who have nothing to gain from saying otherwise. Will carry on with updates.
Doneit, if you would be willing to list the measures you took? At least the main ones? That would be really helpful.
Spent all week cleaning thoroughly, spraying every surface with a 1/50 dilution rate of Zerotol 2.0 (Hydrogen Dioxide 29% Peracetic Acid 4%). Repeated 3 times.
Next step is ozone generator at 40 mg/l for 24 hours. To use ozone generators properly the area needs to be below 70 F, maximum air circulation in room and low humidity. Ozone was lethal to Fusarium at 20 mg/l for 20 mins so I'm going overkill.
Following that will spraying every surface in rooms down with Activated EM-1 (beneficial anaerobic bacteria)
After this any rooms with active air exchange are getting Hepa filters installed on intakes. As added safety measure we are spraying ZeroTol 2.0 in the outside areas near intakes where spores may be residing. Then following that up with EM-1 as well.
RO water output will have UV sterilizers installed. Its very possible some of the spores got into the RO filter while connecting/disconnecting lines and is now residing in biofilm lining the RO units.
Every reservoir, pump, tray and water line is getting thrown away. Anything that held moisture for a prolonged period. Read this article on how much disinfection biofilm can handle. You won't get rid of it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4879406/
Saying that, despite all these measures, I am fully aware some spores will remain. Its impossible to kill every single one. The only success stories I have read on here were from Thcvhunter, OutlawTree and CrusaderRabbit. All of them went with a fully organic/probiotic route. Pretty much accepting that the spores are still around but making sure the root zone is the most inhospitable area possible for this fungus, which is the area it needs to proliferate initially.
I also spoke at length with a consultant in the area, and heard from one of his clients that had a large operation that ran smoothly for 2 years, then suddenly, well our exact story. This carried on for 5 years. They thought the building was cursed. They did a complete tear down and fumigation and replaced most of equipment and it came back the next round. Thats when the consultant (he's a mycologist)was brought on, and he introduced them to all organic/beneficial microbes. It's been 3 years and the same spot has been running smoothly.
I'm leery of a magical solution to anything. However there are success stories regarding this from people who have nothing to gain from saying otherwise. Will carry on with updates.
Doneit, if you would be willing to list the measures you took? At least the main ones? That would be really helpful.
FRANKIE1579
Member
Anyone who has done some reading on this knows fusarium is everywhere. In the dirt outside, drifting in the air, its all over in small quantities. To me the only logical explanation why people experience reoccuring problems is a combination of inadequate disinfection and inadequate prevention measures. People like you and me have a huge amount of fusarium spores in our environment after an infection. So our likelihood of reinfection is far greater. I know I grew for 15 years using salt based ferts and chemical pesticide/fungicides without experiencing fusarium.
To me the only logical way of beating this pathogen is getting your residual fusarium spore population down to pre infection levels. Then take every preventative measure in the book. This stuff isn't omnipotent. It can't be. If it was there would be no cannabis crops growing anywhere. We also have an advantage in container gardening. We can use new soil/media and pots. Most problems u read about fusarium is removing it once it has infested a field. You can't just remove all the soil. We have far more control over pathogen spread than they do. Have read fusarium should not be a substantial problem in container nurseries and gardens. Pathogen control is far easier.
Saying that, way too early for me to say. I'm taking every precaution and preventative measure in the book. Time will tell
To me the only logical way of beating this pathogen is getting your residual fusarium spore population down to pre infection levels. Then take every preventative measure in the book. This stuff isn't omnipotent. It can't be. If it was there would be no cannabis crops growing anywhere. We also have an advantage in container gardening. We can use new soil/media and pots. Most problems u read about fusarium is removing it once it has infested a field. You can't just remove all the soil. We have far more control over pathogen spread than they do. Have read fusarium should not be a substantial problem in container nurseries and gardens. Pathogen control is far easier.
Saying that, way too early for me to say. I'm taking every precaution and preventative measure in the book. Time will tell
C
chris harris
Thanks for taking the time to come and update us. Sorry to hear you had to chuck everything, but it was probably the smartest thing to do. Sounds like you got a solid plan to move forward. Hope all goes well.
Yes, more people need to be aware of this threat, sharing info like this helps.
Yes, more people need to be aware of this threat, sharing info like this helps.
King cola CO
New member
H202 or food grade hydrogen peroxide will fix that problem. You water is getting to hot water At 60degf with h202 problem fixed. Don't add and any organics or bacteria like caps or you will just keep making it worse. Don't feed the bad bacteria...
I could just be paranoid, but I feel like the people that have fixed these problems don't freely share them online. They spent so much money or lost so much dealing with this problem, then see all people with $$$ in their eyes trying to get in on the weed business and really don't want to help those people.
King cola CO
New member
i had this issue several years back. Cold water and h202 will fix problem. Do not feed with organic nutrients or molasses or your just feeding the bad bacteria. Feed with synthetic/cold water and h202 till problems go away. Problem fixed....
FRANKIE1579
Member
King cola you did not have fusarium. H202 or any disinfectant will only kill whats on the surface not a systemic disease. I was using Zero Tol 2.0 at a 1:100 dilution rate. That's 38 ml a gallon of 27% H2o2 plus 2% Peracetic Acid. Zero Tol retains its oxidation potential for 5 days in a reservoir as opposed to 12-24 hrs with Peroxide. This stuff is hydrogen peroxide on steroids. As a preventative, sure. I was not feeding with organic nutrients or molasses. I was using the ag world's best systemic products preventatively such as Heritage and Clearly 3336 in a well rounded IPM strategy. At least I thought it was.That's how I got this problem in the first place. My rooms were sterile. However once fusarium got a foothold, there was nothing to out compete it. I am not making that mistake twice.
KONY i somewhat agree, however the information is all freely available online in peer reviewed papers, not just on cannabis forums. Reason why I am here is I am interested in people's first hand experiences, and I would like to share the process of what hopefully works for me as it did for several others here.
KONY i somewhat agree, however the information is all freely available online in peer reviewed papers, not just on cannabis forums. Reason why I am here is I am interested in people's first hand experiences, and I would like to share the process of what hopefully works for me as it did for several others here.
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FRANKIE1579
Member
And King Cola, thank you for your reply, but the absolute worst thing you can feed a plant with fusarium is Ammonical nitrogen, something contained in most synthetic nutrients.
chitosan oligosaccharide and MEJA
Go Str8 Super Saiyan Blue aka GOD KI
Fear nothing
Go Str8 Super Saiyan Blue aka GOD KI
Fear nothing
FRANKIE1579
Member
Hi Storm Shadow, thanks for that....I was looking into some other sources for the chitin but would love to get the concentrated version. I saw the link you posted on another topic...I think I'm going to order it, which one of these three products have you used and what PPM/amount per gallon are you using it at if you don't mind me asking? And I couldn't find any info on "Super Saiyan Blue"? Haven't heard of it
http://www.bestchitosan.com/e_products/?3-0-1-Chitosan-Oligosaccharide.html
On an unrelated note, have been doing some thinking. We have always utilized negative air pressure for odor control. But the more I think about it, that's the most likely source for a reinfection. Yes I can put Hepa Filters on the intakes all I want. That will cover 95% of the airflow. But there is still a small percentage of air getting in from outside unfiltered sources. I see that as the most likely source of reinfection, as well as bugs. I was always taught negative air pressure, negative air pressure, but that was due to security concerns.
Reading several articles it seems positive air pressure is an effective means of pest/pathogen control. They can't get in unless brought through a mechanical source such as humans or equipment.
http://www.bestchitosan.com/e_products/?3-0-1-Chitosan-Oligosaccharide.html
On an unrelated note, have been doing some thinking. We have always utilized negative air pressure for odor control. But the more I think about it, that's the most likely source for a reinfection. Yes I can put Hepa Filters on the intakes all I want. That will cover 95% of the airflow. But there is still a small percentage of air getting in from outside unfiltered sources. I see that as the most likely source of reinfection, as well as bugs. I was always taught negative air pressure, negative air pressure, but that was due to security concerns.
Reading several articles it seems positive air pressure is an effective means of pest/pathogen control. They can't get in unless brought through a mechanical source such as humans or equipment.
Well...
When i say we tried everything i mean just that..
Complete sterilization of everything, every know fungicide from alliette to ridomil... ran sterile systems ( bleach ).. Beneficial bacteria's like CAPS biowar... god the list goes for ever...
I have read also about the chitosan and am intrigued... Personaly dont think its the fix but my guys would be willing to give it a shot..
So please Storm shadow... elaborate some more on these products and where to obtain them??
Thanks fellas... and good luck to us all!!!
When i say we tried everything i mean just that..
Complete sterilization of everything, every know fungicide from alliette to ridomil... ran sterile systems ( bleach ).. Beneficial bacteria's like CAPS biowar... god the list goes for ever...
I have read also about the chitosan and am intrigued... Personaly dont think its the fix but my guys would be willing to give it a shot..
So please Storm shadow... elaborate some more on these products and where to obtain them??
Thanks fellas... and good luck to us all!!!
FRANKIE1579
Member
Hey doneit thanks for the reply, I don't want to come across like I know everything, I most certainly don't, I mean s**t I have this problem right now lol.
Aliette has close to zero action against Fusarium crown and root rot. It is only effective against certain foliar version's. Ridomil Gold and most copper based fungicides are close to useless against Fusarium as well. So is subdue maxx which I've seen mentioned a few times on here for fusarium.
This is a useful chart which has come in handy for me several times.
http://www.greencastonline.com/pdf/ornamentalpdf/2016chaseposter.pdf
Their rating are based on multiple studies on multiple crops for every pathogen root and foliar you can think of.
The link for the products storm shadow mentioned is in my previous post. I just got to work out application rates.
Aliette has close to zero action against Fusarium crown and root rot. It is only effective against certain foliar version's. Ridomil Gold and most copper based fungicides are close to useless against Fusarium as well. So is subdue maxx which I've seen mentioned a few times on here for fusarium.
This is a useful chart which has come in handy for me several times.
http://www.greencastonline.com/pdf/ornamentalpdf/2016chaseposter.pdf
Their rating are based on multiple studies on multiple crops for every pathogen root and foliar you can think of.
The link for the products storm shadow mentioned is in my previous post. I just got to work out application rates.
FRANKIE1579
Member
One other thing, look at this graphic. I do not believe running a sterile res can even prevent fusarium. This chart has the kill ratios across multiple PPM of chlorine. Notice that when the PPM goes below 3, and that's free chlorine, the population starts rising again? It's sitting in bleach, and still growing lol. That's how fucked this pathogen is. Anyway, if you were to try running at 4 PPM constantly you would never get it. But your plants would be dead within a week. Even at 3 PPM, then you would have bleached phytotoxic plants, and fusarium lol. Long story short sterile doesn't seem like it can work.
Solid circles = survivors
Open circles = free chlorine concentration
Solid circles = survivors
Open circles = free chlorine concentration
FRANKIE1579
Member
And just for the hell of it, compare that to Pythium. 14 times easier to kill. So we got pythium but 14 times stronger which also likes to shoot more of it all across your room rather than just being nice and spreading in the water. That's why this s**t is so hard to kill.
TheOutlawTree
Active member
I had lab confirmed fusarium spp oxysporum. Fusarium oxysporum is systemic / clones from infected mom will always have it.
Crazy thing is, plants or mothers that are infected in veg don't look that bad, they will just never get that healthy dark green / shiny look to the leaves. Usually decline in plant health will start rapidly around week 3 in flower on infected plants.
I fixed my problem by spraying a pure bleach solution on the walls / mopping the floor with pure bleach. I heated room to 150f for about 45 mins after the cleaning. Painted all surface areas with zinsner.
Switched to organic growing principles and problem pretty much went away. I have noticed that having healthy plants at all stages is the most important, and it starts with your moms. Most growers don't put the effort in to keep moms in tip top shape.
Dip healthy cuttings in a strong mycostop solution before you even plug them into rapid rooters. Make sure your not just 'organic' but your soil is balanced as close to albrecht ratios as possible. Give your plants the trace minerals it needs in the soil or by foliar spraying..zinc, copper, manganese etc. Try not to let EC drop or fluctuate to much- keep things stable.
I used Em1 a lot at first but switched to weekly Tainio spectrum drenches since it's got all kinds of different beneficials instead of just lacto.
Crazy thing is, plants or mothers that are infected in veg don't look that bad, they will just never get that healthy dark green / shiny look to the leaves. Usually decline in plant health will start rapidly around week 3 in flower on infected plants.
I fixed my problem by spraying a pure bleach solution on the walls / mopping the floor with pure bleach. I heated room to 150f for about 45 mins after the cleaning. Painted all surface areas with zinsner.
Switched to organic growing principles and problem pretty much went away. I have noticed that having healthy plants at all stages is the most important, and it starts with your moms. Most growers don't put the effort in to keep moms in tip top shape.
Dip healthy cuttings in a strong mycostop solution before you even plug them into rapid rooters. Make sure your not just 'organic' but your soil is balanced as close to albrecht ratios as possible. Give your plants the trace minerals it needs in the soil or by foliar spraying..zinc, copper, manganese etc. Try not to let EC drop or fluctuate to much- keep things stable.
I used Em1 a lot at first but switched to weekly Tainio spectrum drenches since it's got all kinds of different beneficials instead of just lacto.
TheOutlawTree
Active member
Chitosin alone won't cure a plant from fusarium, and chitosan wont prevent fusarium if your soil is all out of wack. But chitosan is awesome and everyone should use it, just don't plan on fixing your problem with chitosan alone....
