Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[F. Dupp]

Im running the Botanigard in my my rez right now. I put 2tsp per gallon in there 2 hours ago. The water in the rez has turned a slightly milky brownish color with snot floating around in it. The plants look fine, but Im not really digging this shit.

I did find a few crawling around this morning. I've had it with these fucking bugs!

 

[overgrowit]

"no disrespect, but there are people all over this and other forums, that have used both imid and /or botaniguard to no avail even in coco. I think it highly depends on the type of aphids one has and perhaps the region. "

Zor, I have been using Merit 75 at high concentrations along with spectracide and ortho bugbgone weekly. Ive been seeing them for a couple months now, I have the "micro" kind and they are hard to see.

They dont want to die, from what I have read the RAs that are larger and sometimes grow wings are easier to kill with Imid. These micros seem to be immune to IMID.

I am going to try a black-light to see if it works for spotting them.
If I cant win the battle soon I am going to take cuttings and start over. I run a perpetual grow with mothers and nursery so this will really suck, but i think I will lose out even more if I dont do something about these bugs.

Also considering using acephate on some of the mothers anyone have any luck with this?

 

[Critter]

Do you think Gnattrol would help?

 

[RetroGrow]

The reason why it doesn't work in some cases are two, IMO.
1-The root systems are damaged to the point where they are no longer able to drink or absorb the chems
2- Grows are constantly being re-infected by the presence of RAs elsewhere in the house or garden outside. If you have a backyard, chances are there are RAs there, and the flyers make their way inside and go straight to your garden. Also can be carried in by pets. People with back yards would need to treat their whole backyard and gardens, otherwise it's a losing battle.

 

[cyat]

"no disrespect, but there are people all over this and other forums, that have used both imid and /or botaniguard to no avail even in coco. I think it highly depends on the type of aphids one has and perhaps the region. "

Zor, I have been using Merit 75 at high concentrations along with spectracide and ortho bugbgone weekly. Ive been seeing them for a couple months now, I have the "micro" kind and they are hard to see.

They dont want to die, from what I have read the RAs that are larger and sometimes grow wings are easier to kill with Imid. These micros seem to be immune to IMID.

I am going to try a black-light to see if it works for spotting them.
If I cant win the battle soon I am going to take cuttings and start over. I run a perpetual grow with mothers and nursery so this will really suck, but i think I will lose out even more if I dont do something about these bugs.

Also considering using acephate on some of the mothers anyone have any luck with this?

try 2in1 rose care with disulfoton, sprinkle lightly, it will work!

oh sm90 to heal and protect the roots!

 

[ShroomDr]

So FWIW Bayer Advanced Tree & Shrub now comes in two formulas

Concentrate I is 1.47% imid
Concentrate II is 0.74% imid and 0.37% Clothianidin.

I didnt notice the 'concentrate II' on the label until after i bought it; im not using it, i found a bottle of Concentrate I at walmart (almost guarantee its last years stock).

These little fuckers ate 3 outta 5 of my Sour lifesaver seedlings. Started digging to see why the seedling didnt break the surface, and they were squirming all in my seedlings shell. Fuck that noise.

 

[michigan.mmma]

after shutting my veg room down and switching mediums these fuckers are back again. i went from some rockwool and DWC to all coco. Its my first try in coco and im using H&G for the first time. Everything was looking good and i kept checking for the RA but never saw them. I had some type of deficiency like Mg or Fe but thought i just needed to get the new nutes dialed in. i should have known now looking back it was RAs again, but i was checking for them in the coco and didnt see any.(the micros are really hard to find in coco)

so here i am again trying to battle these micros that seem to not mind IMID at all. i did treat large ahpids on plants outside and the imid worked like a charm - once and done and never saw them again on some burning bushes. i also cannot figure out where these things are coming from. I have no fliers at all in veg or flower room - no gnats or flying aphids. but when these plants get large, the pots are filled with them. Where the hell do they come from? i would think they came in the medium if i didnt have so much experience with them. i have had them in brand new rockwool and hydroton/dwc and now in coco so i dont think im bringing them in with the medium i am purchasing.

i treated all the plants with IMID on sunday so we'll see what happens in the next couple days but i do not have high hopes. i am thinking i will have to try another method and hopefully someone can help that has battled and defeated the micros or has experience with other products like Cyat. i know he has used disulfoton in bayer 2n1 for roses and bifenthrin in ortho bug b gone. which is recommended between these chemicals? or any ideas to kill these micros for good.

EDIT: I just realized overgrowit wrote above that he tried ortho bug b gone and it did not work on the micros. DAMN! I would start over also but i think i would get them again if i cannot determine where they are coming from.

 

[F. Dupp]

after shutting my veg room down and switching mediums these fuckers are back again. i went from some rockwool and DWC to all coco. Its my first try in coco and im using H&G for the first time. Everything was looking good and i kept checking for the RA but never saw them. I had some type of deficiency like Mg or Fe but thought i just needed to get the new nutes dialed in. i should have known now looking back it was RAs again, but i was checking for them in the coco and didnt see any.(the micros are really hard to find in coco)

so here i am again trying to battle these micros that seem to not mind IMID at all. i did treat large ahpids on plants outside and the imid worked like a charm - once and done and never saw them again on some burning bushes. i also cannot figure out where these things are coming from. I have no fliers at all in veg or flower room - no gnats or flying aphids. but when these plants get large, the pots are filled with them. Where the hell do they come from? i would think they came in the medium if i didnt have so much experience with them. i have had them in brand new rockwool and hydroton/dwc and now in coco so i dont think im bringing them in with the medium i am purchasing.

i treated all the plants with IMID on sunday so we'll see what happens in the next couple days but i do not have high hopes. i am thinking i will have to try another method and hopefully someone can help that has battled and defeated the micros or has experience with other products like Cyat. i know he has used disulfoton in bayer 2n1 for roses and bifenthrin in ortho bug b gone. which is recommended between these chemicals? or any ideas to kill these micros for good.

EDIT: I just realized overgrowit wrote above that he tried ortho bug b gone and it did not work on the micros. DAMN! I would start over also but i think i would get them again if i cannot determine where they are coming from.

I have the micros also and I believe you do have the fliers, you just cant see them. I never see them flying around unless one flies right in front of my eye, but they are there. I find dead ones if I look real hard, but they are about a tenth the size of a fruit fly.

I have been using Imid as well (to the point of damaging my plants with it). I have reduced the RA numbers about 90% but after 3 weeks of treatment Im still finding occasional crawlers. I also used Botanigard in my recirculating rez, which doesnt seem to work so well (snotty water, skyrocketing ph, root death). My ph has been fucked ever since. From 5.7 to 7.0 overnight. Although it may work in coco. If they get on the plants that I put into flower yesterday I will be trying Acephate next. Do some research on it, it may help your situation.

I spend most of my time cleaning and disinfecting these days. Im doing 10X the work for half the weed. Working so hard just to watch my plants continually deteriorate is fucking heartbreaking. These wretched bugs have taken the fun out of growing.

Im either actively killing them, cleaning up after killing them, reading about killing them, or dreaming about killing them.

 

[michigan.mmma]

I have the micros also and I believe you do have the fliers, you just cant see them. I never see them flying around unless one flies right in front of my eye, but they are there. I find dead ones if I look real hard, but they are about a tenth the size of a fruit fly.

I have been using Imid as well (to the point of damaging my plants with it). I have reduced the RA numbers about 90% but after 3 weeks of treatment Im still finding occasional crawlers. I also used Botanigard in my recirculating rez, which doesnt seem to work so well (snotty water, skyrocketing ph, root death). My ph has been fucked ever since. From 5.7 to 7.0 overnight. Although it may work in coco. If they get on the plants that I put into flower yesterday I will be trying Acephate next. Do some research on it, it may help your situation.

I spend most of my time cleaning and disinfecting these days. Im doing 10X the work for half the weed. Working so hard just to watch my plants continually deteriorate is fucking heartbreaking. These wretched bugs have taken the fun out of growing.

Im either actively killing them, cleaning up after killing them, reading about killing them, or dreaming about killing them .

thanks for the reply. i will check on the acephate and look again to see if there are some type of fliers in there. my grow is so small - only 9 plants total now with 3 in beer cups so its easy to look at everything.

the part you wrote in bold is my life story for about the last year. i was busted/shaken down/robbed in 2009 and ever since i started back up i have been battling these things. total misery and yes it takes all the fun out. i think these micros are detrimental to growers' health. the stress is going to give me a heart attack or they may just plain drive me bat shit crazy. every time i see a white speck on something i feel i have to watch it to see if it moves cause it might be an RA. i thought leo sabotaged me because i had minimal problems for 15 yrs and now doing the same thing i was failing. i thought i was bringing them in the garden in the different media i was buying. i even have thoughts there are RA eggs in my freaking tapwater. starting to get delusional....

 

[beta]

.

 

[F. Dupp]

every time i see a white speck on something i feel i have to watch it to see if it moves cause it might be an RA. i thought leo sabotaged me because i had minimal problems for 15 yrs and now doing the same thing i was failing. i thought i was bringing them in the garden in the different media i was buying. i even have thoughts there are RA eggs in my freaking tapwater. starting to get delusional....

I hear you brother. I spend at least a combined 2 hours a day staring at dust waiting for it to move. I must be alot of fun to live with at this point.

I dont know how I got them either. I dont even use media, just roots hanging in a netpot. And I havent taken a clone from anyone since 2009 when a sour diesel clone gave me spider mites. I have many ideas on how this happened, but NO evidence. I have cooked up conspiracy theories involving everyone from LEO to ex gf's. My most rational and probable ideas are that I picked em up at the hydro shop, or scored some seeds that had some eggs on em.

You and I dont live very far apart, and Im pretty sure this bug does not belong in our region.

 

[F. Dupp]

Are you sure you aren't just seeing hypoaspis miles? I contracted them around the same time I got root aphids; I don't know if they're related at all, but my organic treatment took care of RAs and left the HM intact. Fine by me, as they're non-damaging to plants and keep fungus gnats in check.

Here's what they look like.

I wish. I have fliers, and my plants also show every symptom of RA's and have for months. I had my system dialed, next thing I knew I was adding calmag. Then more calmag. Then more N. The whole time battling unstoppable root rot. All for not. My plants looked like shit and my average yeild per plant dropped lower every harvest.

I thought I had somehow forgotten how to grow.

 

[michigan.mmma]

I have the micros also and I believe you do have the fliers, you just cant see them. I never see them flying around unless one flies right in front of my eye, but they are there. I find dead ones if I look real hard, but they are about a tenth the size of a fruit fly.

so you can see them with the naked eye it sounds like. are they black or clear like what is in the root zone? for as much time as i have been hanging out in the rooms, i am surprised not to see one flying or at least a dead one. going to look again.....

 

[F. Dupp]

Yeah, I can see them, but they are very small. They are black/brown. They have legs and wings which are quite long for their body size, although VERY thin.

I had lasik done 2 years ago and have perfect vision now. Otherwise I may have never found these bastards.

I will take a pic of a dead one in just a sec.

 

[F. Dupp]

Ok man, this wont be much help. Ima shitty photographer who can barely work a fairly shitty camera. But this should give you an idea of the size.

I couldnt get it to focus clearly. My old lady might be able to get you a better one when she gets home.


The damage done at 37 days of 12/12



My poor plants are fucked

 

[F. Dupp]

I cant get a better one than that. I have no idea how these guys take pictures of trichomes and shit.

To put things in perspective that is the body with the legs and wings spread apart. Its more wings than anything. They body is maybe twice the size of a crawler, but black.

That one died by landing on the wall of the bathroom while there was steam on the walls from taking a shower. He got stuck to the wall.

Keep in mind that the fliers appear completely non confrontational and are aware of their surroundings. Unlike a mindless fungus gnat, they avoid you.

 

[RetroGrow]

o)
i did treat large ahpids on plants outside and the imid worked like a charm - once and done and never saw them again on some burning bushes. i also cannot figure out where these things are coming from.

I have been following your posts, and it sounds like you are being re-infected from outside. If you had them in your outside garden, flyers will get in the house and zero in on your plants with their incredible sense of smell.
If you are in coco, and you treated when the pots were dry and plants thirsty, it should not be a problem. It takes a while for them to die as they have to munch on treated roots first. But if they are outside, they will keep coming back, which is what I think is happening in your case.
Also I would forget about experimenting with other products. The only things that work are imid products and Botaniguard ES. This has pretty much been proven. Imid will kill them.
Do you have a big back yard?
If so, your entire yard is probably infested, and they are in the soil.
Anyway it does take a while for the imid to work so give it a few days.
Did you treat when the pots were dry and were the plants still drinking?

PS: Your plants don't look bad at all. Not seeing any damage.
Keep at it. They eventually will be killed. Might take several applications due to re-infection.

 

[F. Dupp]

I am wondering if it isnt possible that Michigan.mmma doesnt have RA's but the Hypoapsis things that Beta was talking about. I mean if he has never seen a flier could it be RA's? I thought his plants looked pretty damn good. None of the spotting or yellowing death look associated with these bitches.

Michigan, maybe you could nab a few of them and bring them to a local university agricultural dept or something.

I did get a better picture of one of the fliers. Real ugly little fuckers.

Magnified 600x


Root Aphids- The latest weapon in The War on "Drugs"

 

[zor]

Also I would forget about experimenting with other products. The only things that work are imid products and Botaniguard ES. This has pretty much been proven. Imid will kill them.

PS: Your plants don't look bad at all. Not seeing any damage.
Keep at it. They eventually will be killed. Might take several applications due to re-infection.

retro, where are you getting this info? where is your evidence that imid and botaniguard are the cure alls?

michigan's plants DO look damaged to me and look very much like the beginning stages of what i had.

also, if you read up a few posts. Overgrow is using imid (merit75) in his coco and still having problems.

Contrary to retro's claims, people all over the net are having issues even after using imid and botaniguard. they are NOT proven to work in all instances even though i wish to god they would.

Again, much of the distinction seems to lie within the different subspecies of these fuckers

 

[RetroGrow]

retro, where are you getting this info? where is your evidence that imid and botaniguard are the cure alls?

michigan's plants DO look damaged to me and look very much like the beginning stages of what i had.

also, if you read up a few posts. Overgrow is using imid (merit75) in his coco and still having problems.

Contrary to retro's claims, people all over the net are having issues even after using imid and botaniguard. they are NOT proven to work in all instances even though i wish to god they would.

Again, much of the distinction seems to lie within the different subspecies of these fuckers

Never said they work in all instances. If caught too late, nothing will work as the roots are damaged and plants aren't drinking or can't absorb the imid.
Also if there is another source of RAs on the property or nearby, plants can be reinfected.
People who have hydro systems are having a lot of difficulty. My theory on that is the eggs are recirculating through the system and constantly hatching, but that is just a theory. However there is no doubt at all that imid & Botaniguard work for many people, including myself. They were driving me crazy as my plants looked really bad.
His plants, by comparison look great, as another poster also noticed. As others have pointed out, he may be dealing with something else. His plants look good and certainly aren't dying or near dying as mine were. There is also the possibility of human error or a bad (old) batch of imid. Don't know what the shelf life is.
If you think you have a better solution, let's hear it.