Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

sorry in advance if these questions are already answered but there is just so much information here and so many pages to read. im growing in coco, hand watering.

In my first grow room i was killing it growing really nice plants with great yields. then i had to move and my yield went from a low of 5 oz dry to a high of 8 oz per plant to barely getting 1 oz. the only thing that changed in my set up was the location. i could not put my finger on the problem was it the hard water did i do some thing that i missed.

Then i started to see maybe one fly here and another there every so often they look like the first pictures of the Fungus Gnat on the first page of this thread. my first step was to get sticky strips and i hung them around my tent and put them on top of the pots. to my surprise after a few days the strips had Gnats on them. when i try check the roots i cant see anything only maybe what the OP calls micros.

would the Gnats really effected my yield like i have explained. i was told to use apple cider vinegar with some dish wash cleaner and there are more winged Gnats in the vineagr. to try stop this i took my tent down a few weeks ago and stopped flowering but i do still have some plants vegging. will the break kill the Gnats in my tent?

it aint fungus gnats bro.

 

[Granger2]

You can have both at the same time. Fungus Gnats won't survive intensive insecticide treatments. -granger

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

These problems plagued me for too long. I did not know what to do really since I only have five or so years of real growing experience most of it being in an organic soil mix I had been recycling. Never a real problem until I brought in some new gear. I had the "Works" FG, RA, AND Thrips. All stages of growth larvae, crawlers and winged flyers. Broke down and treated with Orhtene 97 last night. Did not use it with the riptide but I did make up a diluted spot spray with some spectrazide and sm-90.

My question is what is the safest PHI for our plant? I am hoping eclipse420 could elaborate some on how late into flower could you go? I have done extensive research this week and feel like my heads going to pop from all the shit I just went through.

I also want to know what a good follow up will be. I am planning on doing something just not sure what yet. I would prefer not to do another dunk but I will if needed. I am going to treat my water with mosquito dunks for the next feeding.

Thanks to all posters in here. this thread taught me a lot.

SHOOTS

according to the literature the half life of acephate in soil issuper quick. less than a week to several. in soils its on the quicker side ogf that. microbes and ph play a big part. im speculating that the faster it breaks down by ph the higher your chances of burn and the higher you ph the longer it will take. it does seem reasonable to say that it should be out of your plant within a normal flowering cycle. in most soil systems id want to do it no less than 3 weeks before flower but id personally not do it past week 2. it is easy to find the msds online and also you could google environmental fate to see how long its persistant in crops soil and water under different conditions. its negligible compared to imid which binds to the soil for months to years depending on dose. its more dangerous to the applicator(you) than those consuming. its used on food crops and you could look up phi intervals online. NEVER USE THE FORUMS AS YOUR SOLE SOURCE OF SAFETY INFORMATION OF CHEMICALS!!!!!!!! this info is readily available through the national pesticide info site and msds pdf's are all easy to find as well are journaled studies of field tests with lab analytical data. never trust what you read here when dealing with harsh chems. i think eclipse even posted links on here if you search this thread for his posts. good luck!!!!imid sucks and isnt as effective as acephate. imid is easier to handle safer and lasts longer but it is in your herb at the end of harvest. that said imid is also in your food and is approved for food. acephate riptide combo can achieve 100% kill where imid is less and takes days to really start working.

 

[GreeeeN GRassss]

If you are not sure about the "micros" you have spotted, get a 60x magnifier for 10 bucks and search around your rootball.

Thats what the enemy looks like!

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/attachment.php?attachmentid=258305&thumb=1]View Image[/URL]

I took this picture just today, bevore i threw away a batch of seedlings which i wanted to transplant until i spotted them.
this is the larva stage, they are mainly lucent. those fuckers do the worst damage in my experience, they inject the patogenes. the smaller the root mass of a plant is the faster it will be killed, but also flyers will appear much faster in small pods. I allready had some in the 3" pods just after 3 weeks. I tried to chatch one with the cam + scope but under 60x magnification they are fast like a racecar.

So to answer your question:

Gnats alone wont effect your yield this bad unless you have swarms of them.
But root aphids will and unlike gnats they stay wherever you stay so in the end there is no chance to get rid of them for good other than trashing EVERY organic matter and substrate from and around your groom and then sterilize your whole place.
believe me, I found them biting through plastic sealed coco bricks and living in stored rockwool cubes.
So just leaving your box empty for a couple of maybe weeks wont do shit against RAs. Gnats i gues will also come back if you dont chance your behavior in some way. im most cases they appear when the media surface is to moist and thats why coco is such a bitch with gnats.

If you really just have gnats, then put a good layer of sand on your coco, avoid over watering and lower your temps + humidity
Give your ladies a little shave under the skirt for better air circulation. Neemoil should be enough but Pyrethrine will work for sure.

And after all ive gone through there is one last thing you should keep in mind or you will do more harm then good.
ALLWAYS ph your root drench on coco. Especially when you use a systemic, doesn't matter if organic or chem.

cheerz Hmong

ye i have a scope there that i use to the check when the plant is ready, i i thought the dry spell during the break may break the Gnat cycle.

you guys are scaring me they chew thru plastic tough little fuckers.
ye i have neem oil there ill start to apply it again today. ill also check today to see if theres any larve and ill get some sand and cover the pots.

seems like the human form of cancer just eating away.

cheers guys

 

[EclipseFour20]

These problems plagued me for too long. I did not know what to do really since I only have five or so years of real growing experience most of it being in an organic soil mix I had been recycling. Never a real problem until I brought in some new gear. I had the "Works" FG, RA, AND Thrips. All stages of growth larvae, crawlers and winged flyers. Broke down and treated with Orhtene 97 last night. Did not use it with the riptide but I did make up a diluted spot spray with some spectrazide and sm-90.

My question is what is the safest PHI for our plant? I am hoping eclipse420 could elaborate some on how late into flower could you go? I have done extensive research this week and feel like my heads going to pop from all the shit I just went through.

I also want to know what a good follow up will be. I am planning on doing something just not sure what yet. I would prefer not to do another dunk but I will if needed. I am going to treat my water with mosquito dunks for the next feeding.

Thanks to all posters in here. this thread taught me a lot.

SHOOTS

How late in flower for Orthene treatment?...that answer is kinda loose. When I had a serious infestation and working with Orthene in higher doses (5-7 grams per gallon), I drenched EVERYONE, including those weeks away from harvest--as the goal was 100% annihilation. Now, since the RAs had been munching away on my plants before treatment--their damage to my plants was noticeable but not significant (yield was down 25%, leaves looked nasty, but the buds were average sized--but no withering plants).

When I harvested the plants, I examined the rootballs and observed new root growth and zero RAs--even on the plants that were treated weeks from harvest. Did it effect the buds? Not that I could tell. The smoke was good and no different than the buds from plants harvested before treatment (RA infested) and those harvested a month or two later (plants treated in veg and early flower).

I would think it is "best" to never treat any plant that is approaching harvest, but with a perpetual grow operation--and 100% RA annihilation as the goal...I did and observed no negative consequences in doing so.

BTW, the mosquito dunks/bits do nothing for RAs, but can be quite effective on Gnats...that said, one side benefit of Orthene is that it also kills Gnats (soil critter)--but I would hesitate in using it just for Gnats...as there are other successful strategies I would employ that are not as labor intensive.

Hope this helps.

 

[frankenstein2]

I have been on the losing side of a battle with RA's for a few months now. I recently started using Bayer fruit and vegetable with Imidacloprid - 0.235% as the active ingredient. I have only used it on my vegging clones and mothers. It seems to be working ok. I also put some diatomaceous earth on top of some mothers and even planted a few clones in straight DE. If the plants in the DE do well, and don't start to show any signs of RA's, I'm seriously considering putting all my mothers in pure DE.

 

[Hmong]

I wouldn't recommend imid anymore since I for fact know it has a DT50 in Soil of around 170 days even more. That means that only HALF of the stuff you put in there is gone after that time period, bust one half is still in there. And so on.
So for smoking purposes I would allways use something with a significantly shorter DT50
e.g. Thiaclophride which only hast 18 days at max. OR you get the orthene riptide combo everyone preaches.

 

[Shoots]

How late in flower for Orthene treatment?...that answer is kinda loose. When I had a serious infestation and working with Orthene in higher doses (5-7 grams per gallon), I drenched EVERYONE, including those weeks away from harvest--as the goal was 100% annihilation. Now, since the RAs had been munching away on my plants before treatment--their damage to my plants was noticeable but not significant (yield was down 25%, leaves looked nasty, but the buds were average sized--but no withering plants).

When I harvested the plants, I examined the rootballs and observed new root growth and zero RAs--even on the plants that were treated weeks from harvest. Did it effect the buds? Not that I could tell. The smoke was good and no different than the buds from plants harvested before treatment (RA infested) and those harvested a month or two later (plants treated in veg and early flower).

I would think it is "best" to never treat any plant that is approaching harvest, but with a perpetual grow operation--and 100% RA annihilation as the goal...I did and observed no negative consequences in doing so.

BTW, the mosquito dunks/bits do nothing for RAs, but can be quite effective on Gnats...that said, one side benefit of Orthene is that it also kills Gnats (soil critter)--but I would hesitate in using it just for Gnats...as there are other successful strategies I would employ that are not as labor intensive.

Hope this helps.

Thanks eclipse. Yeah i knew that it is always preferred to not treat anything approaching harvest.

I know you stated something about a follow up treatment to eliminate anything possibly left over. Would you prefer to use a different product or follow up with orthene once the soil dries some. I am happy so far. there was nothing moving on the tops of the pots. I have spent close to a week of cleaning and organizing things to streamline everything. My plants have been setup in a temporary quarantine while I scour the flowering room. Definitely the hardest I have ever had to work in my little operation, well not super little but little compared to a lot of others in california.

I appreciate your help eclipse.

 

[Shoots]

according to the literature the half life of acephate in soil issuper quick. less than a week to several. in soils its on the quicker side ogf that. microbes and ph play a big part. im speculating that the faster it breaks down by ph the higher your chances of burn and the higher you ph the longer it will take. it does seem reasonable to say that it should be out of your plant within a normal flowering cycle. in most soil systems id want to do it no less than 3 weeks before flower but id personally not do it past week 2. it is easy to find the msds online and also you could google environmental fate to see how long its persistant in crops soil and water under different conditions. its negligible compared to imid which binds to the soil for months to years depending on dose. its more dangerous to the applicator(you) than those consuming. its used on food crops and you could look up phi intervals online. NEVER USE THE FORUMS AS YOUR SOLE SOURCE OF SAFETY INFORMATION OF CHEMICALS!!!!!!!! this info is readily available through the national pesticide info site and msds pdf's are all easy to find as well are journaled studies of field tests with lab analytical data. never trust what you read here when dealing with harsh chems. i think eclipse even posted links on here if you search this thread for his posts. good luck!!!!imid sucks and isnt as effective as acephate. imid is easier to handle safer and lasts longer but it is in your herb at the end of harvest. that said imid is also in your food and is approved for food. acephate riptide combo can achieve 100% kill where imid is less and takes days to really start working.

Thanks str8edge! Yeah I read so much of this thread and seen all the links and studies done. Read thru all the info I could possibly take. I came to the conclusion myself based on what I read not only here but everywhere.

I appreciate your feedback.

Man I was so damn nervous applying this shit to my plants. But now that I saw my plants the next fray after application I am happy.

Just curious if there is a rep system here like many other online forums.

I owe you guys.

 

[GreeeeN GRassss]

i think you need to have a certain number of post to rep.

 

[Shoots]

Cool green grass. I for some reason can rep myself only. Lol

 

[EclipseFour20]

Thanks eclipse. Yeah i knew that it is always preferred to not treat anything approaching harvest.

I know you stated something about a follow up treatment to eliminate anything possibly left over. Would you prefer to use a different product or follow up with orthene once the soil dries some. I am happy so far. there was nothing moving on the tops of the pots. I have spent close to a week of cleaning and organizing things to streamline everything. My plants have been setup in a temporary quarantine while I scour the flowering room. Definitely the hardest I have ever had to work in my little operation, well not super little but little compared to a lot of others in california.

I appreciate your help eclipse.

Ahhh....the recovery process. Yes, what to follow-up or more importantly...what series of "treatments" are best after the Orthene/riptide dunk?

Here is my rationale (which is 2 parts science, 2 parts experience, and 1 part "stoner logic"). But remember, I am indoor and use a custom soil mix that includes Promix, bark, compost, worm castings, perlite, vermiculite, and calcined clay...resulting in a gritty like soil mix that is both high CEC and high starting PH (6.5-7)....which may or may not be similar to your conditions.

Situation: The plant has just experienced the worst thing in its life: root mass loss due to RAs, reduced nutrient input (less roots...less input), canopy loss due to "crispy leaves" (false signs of nutrient deficiencies), etc. What does it need? To recover from root damage and replenish nutrients.

If the first feeding contain enzymes: (Hygrozyme, Bio-cozyme, Cannazyme, etc.), my plants stalled out with the grow medium remaining moist. So I guess the moral of the story is--zymes will eat away damaged roots that might have recovered.

Best results were when the first feeding contained minerals and general purpose ferts (GrowMore 16-16-16 "Sea-Grow" water soluble concentrate is what I use). Minerals should include silica--lots of it (not suggesting to increase the amount per gallon--but add silica to the future watering/feedings until a few weeks prior to harvest).

So my routine was (from my notes)--first let the grow medium dry out as much as reasonable (allowing Orthene to breakdown) and then deliver a "mineral brew" containing: potassium silicate, sea minerals, epsom salts, humic/fulvic acid, liquid seaweed...all at half doses (instead of 15ml I use 7.5ml).

When container lost half its weight...the 2nd feeding was a special brew of water, potassium silicate--0-50-30 (2 grams/gallon) and urea--46-0-0 (2 grams/gallon).

For the 3rd feeding it was all about fertility...hydrolyzed fish, water soluble potassium phosphate (3 grams/gallon for root growth) and of course...potassium silicate.

For the 4th feeding, repeat 2nd feeding.

For the 5th feeding I focused on enzymes, bacteria, hormones, vitamins, etc. Everyone has their favorite cast of characters.

Now--don't forget foliar sprays...we all have our "go to" ones, so use em, but for fast root recovery, try spraying the plants with this simple spray: 1 gallon water, 7.5ml Canna Rhizotonic, 0.125 grams Urea (white pearls). I will guarantee instant root growth...btw, this is the only recipe where I use Canna's Rhizotonic--IMHO, very pricey soil nutrient but extremely affordable foliar nutrient...best on clones too!

Defoliate all exhausted/damaged leaves--and as an option, I removed all leaves that might become damaged (not quite yellow yet...but will be next time). Dirty secret--removing healthy leaves has been known to increase the plant's silica level. So yeah, I remove some larger fan leaves too--not stripping it, but just a simple haircut/manicure.

Like I said, the worst thing to do for the first few feedings is to hit it with zymes or go heavy with ferts...the roots might need to recover before they can become "transporters" of nutrients.

Hope this helps. Cheers!

 

[Shoots]

Helps a great deal!

Thank you eclipse!

Shoots

 

[Hmong]

wow thats some REAL info!
thanks for sharing!

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

Thanks str8edge! Yeah I read so much of this thread and seen all the links and studies done. Read thru all the info I could possibly take. I came to the conclusion myself based on what I read not only here but everywhere.





hey dont rep me. rep eclipse420!
he did all the research on the treatments and studied it on this very unique application. tested it journaled retested toned it down journaled reworked the formula tested journaled and most importantly shared it graciously for free and helped advocate for people to turn away from the imid cure whose safety and efficacy were questionable. is it perfect? no but it is by far the safest of the more effective treatments going.
he should get mad props for the work he put into developing and sharing his protocol. the work isnt over and it up to others to keep working at this to further his vision of trying to find the safest effective treatment that doesnt poison us, our patients or the environment. unfortunately no one has offered any verifiable results with any organic methods as of yet or i wouldnt even be on here i would have done it and moved on without ever joining but this thread hooked me as i was determined to unlock my garden and my efforts from this pestilence we call root aphid. much luck please post your results good or bad so we can come up with a plan that doesnt involve smoking imid.i would like to see some pesticide screenings by providers in oregon now that this mandatory to see if they are showing up with or without traces of acephate or its metabolized breakdown chemicals in the herb. from the literature i would imagine we wont see it in people treating early in flower and in veg. ph and microbes seems to play a big role in half life so if you post test results please document soil and nute runoff ph as well as your microorganism health you observed throughout grow.
thanks for participating.

 

[Finklsteinshtkd]

can we make this thread a sticky please?

bump..

 

[Pepe le skunk]

I agree root aphids are a problem and was just wondering if most are getting them from clones or soil they purchased? Where do you think they got into your garden?

 

[Granger2]

People get RA's both ways. Every plant I've ever grown originated from seed that I germinated [and clones of]. The first time I saw an RA was in a pot of FF Happy Frog Potting Soil. -granger

 

[BlazinPurps]

I have never taken in a clone from someone else either everything I have grown was from seed. I can not be 100% sure but I really believe my Root Aphids came from Fox Farm Ocean Forest soil.

 

[Elements001]

Son of a bitch, I have them don't I?..