Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[Pepe le skunk]

Good to know. I never tried Kontos (it is a systemic only--no contact capabilities), but I do know has a very very short half-life and degrades quickly in soil (which is GOOD!).

Kontos (Spirotetramat) has a half-life of less than one day in soil (just like pyrethrin).
Cheers!

Can this product be used in flower? Up to what week?
What is the dose per gallon on this product?

Believe these could have been introduced from FFOF soil.
They do swarm. 2 types: flying and crawling crab like black bugs. Will try and get pictures under magnification.

 

[Pepe le skunk]

Thank you OP. Some info is copied from page one.
Type 1 "crabs" these produce winged adults like those pictured in the section above.
I am coining these bastards "crabs" - since they come in colors (even red), and since they seem the most common, I think they deserve a name that everyone already knows as a dirty bug you don't want creeping where the sun don't shine.

The fourth type that has been posted (linked below) I will call "red-asses" as they are rosy in color and when mature appear to be dark with rosy-colored behinds. They are more round than crabs and their cornicles do not seem to poke outward/protrude as clearly, as they seem to be "bent" along their body more than sticking directly out in parallel.

Not sure exactly if 1 and 4 are the same however they do have the adult flyers that are black in color. Have done azamax treatment and that stopped them for a few weeks. They also swarm as mentioned earlier and that might be when the adults breed. One other friend also bought FFOF and has the same issues. Source is most likely FFOF. Just an fyi.

What would be the safest solution for plants in flower and veg for treatment?

Sounds like Azamax and Met 52 are options. What about Kontos?
Can it be used in flower?

 

[sahdgrower]

120F H20 dunk

 

[Pepe le skunk]

120F H20 dunk

I have done a 120 degree dunk of leaves before to kill thrips. Are you saying to dunk the root ball in 120 degree water as well? Will it cook the roots? How long do you dunk for? How do you keep the temp up at 120?

 

[sahdgrower]

I have done a 120 degree dunk of leaves before to kill thrips. Are you saying to dunk the root ball in 120 degree water as well? Will it cook the roots? How long do you dunk for? How do you keep the temp up at 120?

Yes complete root dunk. I have not proven this method for complete killing of all RA. However I believe it's due to not completing treatment cycle rather than efficacy of the method. I wrote a thread with my experience called "operation RAD" check it out.

 

[Granger2]

Mine are yellowish beige. First time I saw them was in a pot filled with OF Happy Frog.

In photo 3 you can see the distinguishing trait-1 horn on each side of ass. Flyers have the same ass horns. Most reproduction is by pregnant crawlers giving live birth to already pregnant crawlers. Anything less than 100% kill and they will return. Good luck. -granger

 

[cannascholar]

Kontosing in flower is a bad idea. Appearently it has a 1 yr residual however I still had ras eventually after. One step I missed was dunking so I will be using a 4x8 full of kontos @ 1ml to baptize the fuckers. I still have one more back of todes to deploy but I'm not too sure on the effectiveness. Used tree and shrup, spectracide, plain ole imid, og biowar and the two types of todes Granger mentioned and can still find two types the white, and brownish yellow.

While your doin at it with the Kontos, I hear avid does a number on em too.

 

[Pepe le skunk]

From reading the thread it seems these buggers are hard to kill. Had the same battle with thrips and the only thing that wiped them out was hot water 120 degree dunk with Azamax.

So in flower the problem is you don't want to use the bad insect controls.
So seems your limited to these items:
BT
SNS 203
Riptide liq. pyrethrin
Botanigard- is a soil dwelling insecticidal fungus
neem cake
neem
Azamax if less than week 4 on a 9-10 week flower.
Spinosad

In Veg your choices do include some of the others. Trying to avoid ones with over 100 day half life or life.
Kontos (Spirotetramat)
Orthene

These probably are the strongest ones.
IMID- like Bayer Complete.
Spectracide Triazacide (Gamma-Cyhalothrin)
Avid

To kill the flyers in flower a fogger pyrethrin will be used. in 3 days Azamax drench and then spray with Spinosad or dunk if necessary.

Depends how things look in late flower if the spinosad is needed. Just need to get over the hump with keeping the numbers low until chop. The soil will be disgarded.

BT has worked well as has Nuke um for contact kill. Just need to do a drench.

Veg is very low rate of aphids and will probably monitor any new activity with yellow sticky traps. As well as do a soil drench with azamax. Probably follow it up with a riptide drench to help wipe them out.

 

[oldbootz]

I had these briefly on one plant that was given to me. It was the orange crab ones described on the first page.

I deal with thrips and spider mites too occasionally but my spraying regimen keeps all the pests at bay and not causing any visible damage to vigor or production. I grow with organic soil in pots for veg and big tubs with multiple plants per tub for flower. I dont use anything that kills the micro organisms. No H2O2, no chemical ferts, only one organic pesticide used. I use a 1% solution of pure neem oil (10ml per liter) mixed with 1ml per liter dishwashing soap. I do this spray about once a week on all my plants in veg and all the plants in flower that are less than 3 weeks in. I also use diatomaceous earth in my soil mix and a little top dressed occasionally.

It is very important to remember with any oil based product that you have to keep shaking up the spray container while you apply the stuff. I have learnt my lesson a few times when spraying neem that all the plants are fine except the last ones I spray because they were getting the most concentrated part of the spray at the bottom of the bottle. If the concentration is too far too high you will get leaf necrosis and shedding. The leaves will feel crispy to the touch and fall off easily even with a lot of green still in them. If the concentration is just a little too high you will start to see a yellowing in between leaf veins (fake magnesium deficiency) and some brown dead spots on the leaves (fake potassium deficiency). The plants that do not get too high doses of the oil do not show any problems what so ever.

I find that the mites seem to always come back in small numbers and the thrips too. I havent seen any root aphid problems in a long time now (about 9 months). But the damage from the mites and thrips is almost nothing other than some white spots and flecks on an occasional leaf. Im completely happy with this, because even if I did manage complete removal of all the insects, its very likely that another infection would come from outside soon enough. So I have resigned my self to the once a week application with all lights off for at least 6 hours after the application.

 

[Granger2]

Spraying the foliage will do virtually nothing to kill RA's in the medium.

Check the Thrips sticky. Consensus seems to be that excellent control gained from a Spinosad soak of medium and foliage spray at the same time. Repeat in 3-5 days. Done.

Nematodes don't survive for long in the fridge. 10 days max. They work great if you don't have residual insectide in the medium.

Also FYI, 100 day half life means in 100 days half of the insecticide will still be there. Good luck. -granger

 

[johnhinkleyjr]

From reading the thread it seems these buggers are hard to kill. Had the same battle with thrips and the only thing that wiped them out was hot water 120 degree dunk with Azamax.

So in flower the problem is you don't want to use the bad insect controls.
So seems your limited to these items:
BT
SNS 203
Riptide liq. pyrethrin
Botanigard- is a soil dwelling insecticidal fungus
neem cake
neem
Azamax if less than week 4 on a 9-10 week flower.
Spinosad

In Veg your choices do include some of the others. Trying to avoid ones with over 100 day half life or life.
Kontos (Spirotetramat)
Orthene

These probably are the strongest ones.
IMID- like Bayer Complete.
Spectracide Triazacide (Gamma-Cyhalothrin)
Avid

To kill the flyers in flower a fogger pyrethrin will be used. in 3 days Azamax drench and then spray with Spinosad or dunk if necessary.

Depends how things look in late flower if the spinosad is needed. Just need to get over the hump with keeping the numbers low until chop. The soil will be disgarded.

BT has worked well as has Nuke um for contact kill. Just need to do a drench.

Veg is very low rate of aphids and will probably monitor any new activity with yellow sticky traps. As well as do a soil drench with azamax. Probably follow it up with a riptide drench to help wipe them out.

check your label on riptide. i wouldnt use it in flower if i didnt want to put non-organic insecticides on flowering plants. it has 5 times the amount of piperonyl butoxide as it does pyrethrum (25%to 5% respectively).
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?....batzner.com/docs/MSDS-Labels/RiptideMSDS.pdf
That said it does seem fairly safe to use in veg and maybe even early flower as a soil drench. because, to quote

"What is the environmental fate and behavior of piperonyl butoxide?
$ Researchers evaluated the degradation of piperonyl butoxide in soil at three sites, and the maximum half-life was 4.3 days. They did not detect residues after 30 days. Piperonyl butoxide has a moderate to low leaching potential (14).
$ Researchers evaluated the degradation of piperonyl butoxide in aqueous environments at three sites, and the half- lives ranged from 0.55-1.64 days (14).
$ Gravitational settling removes piperonyl butoxide released in the atmosphere as an aerosol. Gaseous piperonyl butoxide degrades in the atmosphere with an estimated half-life of 3.4 hours (15)."

source: Arnold, D. J. The Fate and Behavior of Piperonyl Butoxide in the Environment. In Piperonyl Butoxide: The
Insecticide Synergist; Jones, D. G.; Ed.; Academic: San Diego, CA, 1998; pp 105-119.

 

[umm.iforgot]

I've had trouble with both these bugs. Fungus gnats were much easier to deal with than root aphids.

 

[EclipseFour20]

have you ever noticed any burn in the riptide acephate combo? i got significant leaf margin burn but cant rule out all possible variables as to the cause but it followed the treatment. it was highly compacted soil.

Never experienced any leaf burn with this routine, but I did many moons ago while experimenting with other RA toxins and attributed it the soil/grow meidums low PH. I heard of one grower that used 1-2 grams of Orthene per gallon and had great success in ridding both RAs and Fungus Gnats, so lower amounts might work for some.

Regarding PBO...it is a synergist derived from sassafras oil that...when mixed with certain pesticides it makes the killing active ingredients more effective. Without it, greater amount of pesticides would be required. Safe to use in flower? Sure. Days before harvest? No. NPIC info on PBO npic.orst.edu/factsheets/pbogen.pdf

Sorry for the late post, been off the grid for a while. Cheers!

 

[Hmong]

I don't know if you're still using that survey from the start page, i didn't read the whole thread from Beginning^^
Anyway since this is my 1st Thread I'd like to welcome all of you in hell

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A)How bad was your infestation and what effects have you observed in your plants/grow?

I let the pictures do the talking...

I had the rh @ 60% with a humidifier and Temps over 26°C, this may have caused this massive outbreak. But since i noticed them first I stopped the humidifier and create a dry enviornment around 30%
tomorow the pods will be bonedry, leaves are hanging though
this lets them crawl up the stem or near the drainage holes as you see in the vid.

http://videobam.com/VNKzj

B)Have you grown the same way before with success or with the same problems? Have you grown a different way before with success or the same problems?

Same way and also had the problem, but i didn't recognized them. I also had gnats back then. interestingly this grow was 1 year ago. I haven't had any grow since spring 2013 an not even any plants in my appartment but they were still around obviously. this creeeps me out
C)Have you treated them before (if so, how and what were your results/conclusions)

I few days ago i tried two different methods on my veg plants.
the worst cased i tried a radikal method by dunking the whole pot into 55°C hot water for at least 5 mins. I literally drowned the plant and washed the of.
today i checked, the plants looked not worse than anywaybut all bugs were gone. I didn't spot any on leafes, stem or roots/bucket holes.
which gives me at least some hope.

the fitter ones i root drenched with a neem solution, I flooded the pods so they would swim over the edges. Some may have managed to climb up the stem, thats where i spotted them today. I also gave 2 foilar apps of the neem to the whole room but they dindn't care obviously.

D)What type of medium/nutrients and what type of setup (hand water, ebb/flow etc)

Coco + Advanced Nutrients of Holland + hand water

If you do not have root aphids but have some sort of nutrient lockout/nutrient deficiency/toxic salt buildup, please let us know:

A)What are your symptoms?

massive yellowing from upside down. micro defficienciesand and the fand leaves start to fall off

B)What is your medium/nutrient regimen/setup (watering etc)?

not as often as i would like to, you understand
they are basicly stunned

C)Have you grown the same way before with success or the same problems? Have you grown a different way with success or the same problems?
[/FONT]
dito

 

[symbiote420]

Used the Orthene + ExciteR combo, it f'd the RAs up good ....but beware of using Orthene and after my experiences I'd advise peeps against it ....totally burned my leaves!! I thought it may have been my addition of ExciteR that caused the burn but when I used both products separately the ones hit with the Orthene (97.4% Acephate) leaves burned up slowly over a 7 to 10 day period ....boooooo, the ExciteR alone plants are just fine! Used both @ 2.5 tsp/gal when combined and alone, I haven't seen any aphids lately and I'll be running Cap's Foliar from now on since I have this fuckers knocked down .....yea I said knocked down, my past battles/attempts to get rid of these pest won't allow me to claim victory just yet but it feels good not see them!

 

[Granger2]

I'd recommend using OGBW foliar and root as a drench and a foliar. Good luck. -granger

 

[Hmong]

Today I had another learning experience.
Those are some clones I allready took before I noticed i have RAs!
An now about 3 Weeks later aaaaaaahhhhr

I am not courious about the wierd deficiency at all, now I know.

Treatment so far to all plants bloom & veg:

I removed all ladies from my bloom and started with the ethnic cleansing. First i sprayed the table with the insectizides, then i cleaned it with hot water (60°C) + Cloride. piece for piece I poisoned, cleaned und removed the whole rack. then i sprayed & cleaned the whole box likewhise. During work i spotted about 15 flyers crawling in the mesh of my carbon filter, so i sprayed them they where imidiately dead. So guys check your filter mesh as part of your control routine, you can spot them there easily. thats where they usualy abide, as near the lights, especially on top of the reflector.
Finally i vakuumed the hole room, removed my sheets and all clothes laying around from the area. Until they are finally banned I reside on the couch xD

after the treatment your place should look like that, i guess,
I have now Idea how far you can overindulge the cleaning but I kinda think this pest automatically makes you almost a potential hypochondriac

Yellow traps, looooooots of yellow traps near the lights and hit em with a ventilator to create much turbulence. the idea is to create an enviornment for bugs thats hostile like Tschernobyl

I let them dry out and I mean bone dry, some ladies looked like the wont make it due to death of thirst. leaves hung off badly

I removed the top layer of coco + scraped it loose with my finger until i reached the root ball. under good light I could spot a few of every kind sucking on some fresh tips. this way I hoped to hit them more effective with the phyrethrin and its also part of my stress treatment.

then i taped the stems with double layer tape. I know there may be better options but i have no access to "tanglefoot" and It also was an spontanious idea. the problem is that I couldn't find out whats the exact wording for it in german is so far.
In my experience so far i recommend to treat the stem & pot edges with some kind of barrier because they crawl up the stem and hide in dark areas in the first 1/3 of the plant when you water or the medium gets to dry. Also the flyers give live birth so its obvious that the offspring has the intention to crawl downwards as soon as possible. you can see a good example in the pics in my first post.

then a foilar spray rather wash with a 0,25% Neem Oil + 0,005% Phyrethrine emulsion

then i root drenched with a 0.05% emulsified Neem Oil + 0,001% Pyrethrine + 2ml/L Bio Bizz - Bio Heaven with EC 0,8 (=640 ppm TDS) and pH 5,8

finally i covered the removed 3-4 cms of coco with worm castings
and put them back when lights went off. But I DIDN'T water afterwards. Today they looked kind of more happy I guess, all where alive and well. The remaining fan leaves partly where also up towards the light.
I am now about 30hrs in, Im not sure how to proceed?
The idea is to foilar applicate nutes via Alga Mic + Fish Mix until the coco has dried enough again this should be encouraged by Bio Heaven. I don't think it makes sense to flush with nutes yet, because the roots are kinda drowned anyway and can't uptake the nutes which results in salt build up. I gave them a drink of EC 1.4 (= 896 ppm TDS) the last time before all broke lose and I started the dry out. @ the next watering i will feed them with a Vitamin Bomb of Bio Heaven + Alga Mic + Fish Mix + Enzymes and most importantly ACT!!!
I'm sure the microherd will give them some kinda death blow and the worst effect it can have is to be useless.

I was in week 4 of 8 so dont blame me, I just though its better do do an experiment to gain some experience rather than eradicating everything and start from seed. the more we suffer the more we learn.

And finally some Info: Since I am from Austria I don't have access to Imid of whatever kind. I still try to figure out some way but in the meanwhile I hope I'm out of the woods. *fingerscrossed*

jm2c - Hmong

 

[DeceiverZ]

First of all. Thank you for everyone who's contributed to this thread! It is a wealth of information and very useful!

Unfortunately, I am battling these little fuckers now and I have identified them as the small, nearly translucent variety. They are REALLY tiny and move incredibly fast for their size.

Over the course of 3 weeks I tried Neem, BTI, hydrogen peroxide, hot water, Azamax and insecticidal soap all to no avail.

I haven't seen any of the adult fliers on the yellow sticky papers -only fungus gnats.

This week, I ordered Orthene (acephate), Merit 75WP, SNS 203, Evergreen 60-6, and beneficial nematodes.

I've read about 80% of the 150+ pages and here's what I've decided to do. All my plants are still in veg state and I'm growing entirely in Coco.

1. Evergreen 60-6 at 2.5mL per gal -fully mixed in along with nutrients as a drench.
Waited 2 days
2. Orthene at 1.2gr per gallon -fully mixed in along with nutrients as a drench.
Waited 2 days
3. Evergreen 60-6 at 2.5mL per gal (AGAIN)
Waited 3 days
4. Compost tea and Roots Excelurator

It's been 4 days since the last Evergreen treatment and the plants are looking great. There appears to be a little burning on the leaves but close inspections reveal ZERO root aphids. I'm not 100% confident that they are gone, but I will keep the SNS and Beneficial Nematodes in case they re-appear in flower. I bought the Merit75 but am having doubts about using it. Seems like the half-life of this poison could linger in the final product and since I don't want to smoke tainted herb, I'm holding off on using it.

For now, I think I have beat them... only time will tell I suppose

Goodluck to everyone who is dealing with these pests!
-DZ

 

[Granger2]

DeceiverZ,
Seems you're making headway. Don't ever think they are all dead. The Nematode shelf life in the fridge is only about 10 days. Also, chem insecticides will kill todes.

OG Biowar foliar and root used together as a drench and foliar is good. Apply every 2 weeks at FULL strength. Use todes with overwhelming numbers.

I recommend that you use fresh todes at about 3-4 weeks into flower whether you see evidence of RA's or not. OGBW every 2 weeks FULL strength. Keep the potato 1" slices on the surface of the medium and check undersides of slices frequently. Good luck. -granger

 

[DeceiverZ]

DeceiverZ,
Seems you're making headway. Don't ever think they are all dead. The Nematode shelf life in the fridge is only about 10 days. Also, chem insecticides will kill todes.

OG Biowar foliar and root used together as a drench and foliar is good. Apply every 2 weeks at FULL strength. Use todes with overwhelming numbers.

I recommend that you use fresh todes at about 3-4 weeks into flower whether you see evidence of RA's or not. OGBW every 2 weeks FULL strength. Keep the potato 1" slices on the surface of the medium and check undersides of slices frequently. Good luck. -granger

Thanks Granger!

I was not aware of the shelf life for nematodes was only 10 days in the fridge. I've read in a few places that its possible to cultivate the beneficial nematodes in plastic containers with some oatmeal and yeast. Seems an easy enough experiment..

After having applied both the Evergreen 60-6 and the Orthene Acephate to my coco, would the nematodes immediately die from all the residual pesticides effectively making it worthless?

-DZ