Experienced Sealed Room Growers needed

[Mikell]

An almost entirely irrelevant reply.

This is the size of a tank for a greenhouse.

Granted, the GH is probably well in excess of 20000sq feet. Still, boggles the mind.

Source - also contains some of the only references I have found for CO2 requirements (in weight) relating to room volume, and many other useful bits and comparisons. Highly recommended reading.

An average consumption level is estimated to be between 0.12–0.24 kg/hr/100 m2

That's just... gold. Thank God non-potheads use CO2. It also highlights many potential issues never acknowledged, raised or comprehended in any thread I've ever read about CO2. Sulfur dioxide, propane/NG quality, etc.

Levels exceeding 50 ppm CO in the flue gases are an indication of the presence of ethylene at levels capable of causing crop damage.

Ethylene is often produced as a result of incomplete combustion, while propylene is usually associated with the use of propane.

Hehe, very excited. How did I not find this before, I'm clearly retarded. I keep flying back in here to edit and add information. What the hell is propylene?

 

[audiohi]

I just ordered the Green Air Products - Multi-Fuel Infrared CO2 Generator. I'm not sure if I'm happy or sad that I saw this thread!

 

[queequeg152]

I have seen a few new genrators coming out, one I believe had a cstslytic stage, the other was infrared, which I suspect would do the same thing. I'll find links when I get home, before i gave up on burners I was looking into them,

careful. most of the catalytic or IR heaters operate purely on whats called catalytic oxidation. or 'autothermal' catalytic oxidation blah blah blah. same thing as a car catalytic converter basically, but the catalyst is chosen such that it takes place at temps below the ignition temp of what ever the fuel is.

they operate by catalytically oxidizing propane, and maby methane. the heat of oxidation is enough to keep the reaction going as long as there is fuel.

problem is, that it will produce lots of CO if things are not hot enough. i think combustion is a far better way to produce reliable co2 being that you have very good control of airflow and fuel balance.

 

[queequeg152]

An almost entirely irrelevant reply.

What the hell is propylene?

are you referring to propylene verses propene?
or perhaps ethylene verses ethene?

short story is... organic chemistry is older than prostitution. there's old naming conventions and new ones. alot of the old stuff is german in origin and hence confusing.

propylene is the same as propene.
ethylene is the same as ethene.
amyl nitrate is pentyl nitrate( penta ... 5 carbons.)

trust me dont go down this road. it never ends.

 

[Mikell]

are you referring to propylene verses propene?
or perhaps ethylene verses ethene?

short story is... organic chemistry is older than prostitution. there's old naming conventions and new ones. alot of the old stuff is german in origin and hence confusing.

propylene is the same as propene.
ethylene is the same as ethene.
amyl nitrate is pentyl nitrate( penta ... 5 carbons.)

trust me dont go down this road. it never ends.

It was more of a rhetorical question, although I enjoy any information on etymology. Propene has been mentioned a handful of times on IC, all in relation to oil extraction. Real insight in to the minute details, problems and solutions of CO2 accentuation is not very well discussed here/elsewhere, beyond debating 1100/1200 or 1500ppm, generator or bottled. Even then, there's rarely any meat on the bone. Cost comparison? Might as well ask a mouthbreather what they do with all the flies they catch.

 

[queequeg152]

It was more of a rhetorical question, although I enjoy any information on etymology. Propene has been mentioned a handful of times on IC, all in relation to oil extraction. Real insight in to the minute details, problems and solutions of CO2 accentuation is not very well discussed here/elsewhere, beyond debating 1100/1200 or 1500ppm, generator or bottled. Even then, there's rarely any meat on the bone. Cost comparison? Might as well ask a mouthbreather what they do with all the flies they catch.

oh i misunderstood. your link directed to propene, so i assumed you had made the connection but was unsure. i see now wikipedia auto redirects to propene.

regarding the lack of information. what you are doing is exactly right imo. keep plumbing the depths of green house cultivation. cornell has freaking, hundreds of acres of ag operations, they should have a plethora of information that may or may not be indexed on google.
nc state is another very big ag university. they should have info as well id bet.

 

[TrichCrazy5280]

I have no idea why that post is not a sticky, perhaps someone butt hurt by Spurr in the past.

To clarify, we/I have used burners in the past. This year has been the year of "Vegging mums in the smallest space possible" and smoking other peoples overfed, underflushed garbage. Mommy wow, I'm a grower now...

Anyway

It was the first time implementing CO2 for the lead grower I was partnered with, and there were many pitfalls. I do not have a great amount of experience with CO2, but did run in to just about every problem one could have and found an adequate solution.

We used burners in two 40x20's (10 or 12-head burner) and two 20x20 (4-head burner). No problems in veg (one 20x20, other veg was all intake/outtake), but the burner was only maintaining slightly elevated PPM. The one 20x20 flower room was entered enough (open door air exchange) to make any results moot.

In the large rooms, we set up for completely sealed environments. The gasfitter/HVAC (and grower) advised against, and we installed passive intake and forced outtake, timed to one air exchange every 2 hours, to dump CO2 at lights out (as per Spurr et al.) and remove the humidity spike.

Bad idea, without large passive intakes requiring constant air exchange. Negative pressure wreaked havoc on the burners until the intake was quickly converted to forced air to narrow the intake/outtake gap.

This worked great and was left as is, flower development and harvest were on point. Nothing about the situation was ideal, we ran headlong in to every type of failure (re: environmental control, and to be honest, almost every other aspect) and found little resources online to explain anything, and even less from the locals.

We looked at bottled as a solution to remove all the band-aids, but 50lb tanks were all to be had and it was assumed we would be changing tanks too frequently. There is little to no information comparing the two systems (or at least, little of value was found) re: calculating tank life, the cost of either setup, etc.

From incomplete information and less experience, I now favour bottled. Less heat, less humidity, more control (can be injected directly in to HVAC supply line) and the potential for use as clean, chemical free pest control. If I ever set up another room with burners, I would never use larger than 4-6 head. Concentrating that much heat in one area was a bad idea, but you can mitigate with increased air flow. As well, I would calculate oxygen requirements of the burner to minimize waste, but these problems are for another day.

Not sure if this is that helpful, but it is long and rambly.

NO that is EXACTLY the information i was looking for, thanks for taking to time to put that done for the thread. I will have a forced intake(10 inch max fan) and forced exhaust(12 inch max fan). Im curious to see what differences i see. I think im going to check ou the formula in the link you posted. Btu vs cfm. See what that that comes out to.

Those additional added benefits you mentioned sound nice and for me that would mean i can now hang my wall falls where i really wanted them to begin with. After this flower is done i am going to use a dewer tank for my co2, liquid tanks. They make them in mutiple sizes.

Nice. Looks like Spurr came to the same conclusion as me. Specifically with root growth within the container at high levels of Co2.

I probably took it to the extreme in regards to lowering the ppm. But I really like the results, and It's definitely passing the eye test.

I have since now lowered my controller to operate between 800-1000ppm. The rooms co2 levels are now 500 or below at night. I am fixing all variables i am now aware of that were causing me issues based on THE AWESOME KNOWLEDGE OF THESE DUDES!!

 

[theother]

careful. most of the catalytic or IR heaters operate purely on whats called catalytic oxidation. or 'autothermal' catalytic oxidation blah blah blah. same thing as a car catalytic converter basically, but the catalyst is chosen such that it takes place at temps below the ignition temp of what ever the fuel is.

they operate by catalytically oxidizing propane, and maby methane. the heat of oxidation is enough to keep the reaction going as long as there is fuel.

problem is, that it will produce lots of CO if things are not hot enough. i think combustion is a far better way to produce reliable co2 being that you have very good control of airflow and fuel balance.

I was under the impression that these operated with combustion but set up to then heat a little bullshit IR ceramic thing? didn't really look into though, just took a guess based on what they look like. I assumed they just kind of made them like the infrared BBQ's. I hate how you have to take a guess about a product in this industry.

So if something gets off with these they do not completely combust?

You turned out to be a wealth of combustion information!

NO that is EXACTLY the information i was looking for, thanks for taking to time to put that done for the thread. I will have a forced intake(10 inch max fan) and forced exhaust(12 inch max fan). Im curious to see what differences i see. I think im going to check ou the formula in the link you posted. Btu vs cfm. See what that that comes out to.

Those additional added benefits you mentioned sound nice and for me that would mean i can now hang my wall falls where i really wanted them to begin with. After this flower is done i am going to use a dewer tank for my co2, liquid tanks. They make them in mutiple sizes.
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=58128&pictureid=1360341&thumb=1]View Image[/url]


I have since now lowered my controller to operate between 800-1000ppm. The rooms co2 levels are now 500 or below at night. I am fixing all variables i am now aware of that were causing me issues based on THE AWESOME KNOWLEDGE OF THESE DUDES!!

Lowering the levels seems like a good idea for the time being. What does your environment look like?

Is that different than just the normal co2 cylinder? is it easy for you to get filled without exchanging? Id be pissed if I exchanged that back to the future looking thing and got some nasty ass old steel bottle back.

 

[TrichCrazy5280]

Actually Mikell, for whatever reason when i did this formula based on the link this is what it came too.

"There should be 14 cubic feet of air for each cubic foot of gas burned (Flood, 1999)"

So in my situation according to this this works out to 193.2cfm of fresh air when the burner is running. But what this information gives me overall is confusing for me to put into action. I know understand what you were saying in earlier posts about figuring out my burners oxygen demands. Im just a little slow.

 

[queequeg152]

I was under the impression that these operated with combustion but set up to then heat a little bullshit IR ceramic thing? didn't really look into though, just took a guess based on what they look like. I assumed they just kind of made them like the infrared BBQ's. I hate how you have to take a guess about a product in this industry.

So if something gets off with these they do not completely combust?

You turned out to be a wealth of combustion information!

alot are as you say. they basically blowtorch a ceramic element.

but alot are not. you have to examine them closely. alot of the ultra small hiking/camping type heaters are catalytic oxidation based.

i think those giant propane mosquito murderers use catalytic oxidation too.

im sure you can get one of these catalytic units to operate without producing any CO... but imo these will be more prone to producing CO than a clean combustion based heater.

keep in mind CO is very reactive and readily combustable, so its not hard to get rid of.

unrelated bit of lol history:

way back in the 1880's people had "illuminating gas" piped into their homes for lamps and even stoves and shit... it was like 50% carbon monoxide. illuminating gas is basically coal and coal tar heated in a reactor. the gas evolved is piped to homes.
ungodly amounts of people died as a result of CO poisoning back then.

 

[TrichCrazy5280]

Just an update. Been a week now since exchanging the air and I am seeing a little improvement. Trying to turn chicken shit into chicken salad here but they seem a little bit more lush. It is day 16 of flower and am now seeing trichs starting to form so this is a good sign compared to previous runs at this stage.

 

[theother]

Just an update. Been a week now since exchanging the air and I am seeing a little improvement. Trying to turn chicken shit into chicken salad here but they seem a little bit more lush. It is day 16 of flower and am now seeing trichs starting to form so this is a good sign compared to previous runs at this stage.

Do you have any pics of this run compared to others? That is something that has helped me a ton. Worth reminding yourself to do.

 

[TrichCrazy5280]

Do you have any pics of this run compared to others? That is something that has helped me a ton. Worth reminding yourself to do.

I dont. Prob should have but i just havent felt the urge to snap photos of the house garden lately with the issues. Its really not even that bad but when you have seen certain results for the past 10 years its heartbreaking honestly.

Maybe ill snap some photos and see if you can even see anything. The main issue pysically at this point is taller then normal and much weaker, thinner branches. Not expecting huge colas but at least want that extra frost they have been missing lately.

 

[Avinash.miles]

I dont. Prob should have but i just havent felt the urge to snap photos of the house garden lately with the issues. Its really not even that bad but when you have seen certain results for the past 10 years its heartbreaking honestly.

Maybe ill snap some photos and see if you can even see anything. The main issue pysically at this point is taller then normal and much weaker, thinner branches. Not expecting huge colas but at least want that extra frost they have been missing lately.

documentation is KEY
it's been VERY helpful to me to take plenty of photos of my grows at all stages of growth, veg & flower. Comparing pictures of each run gives you a really good idea of how things are stacking up and how different grow methods & techniques effect the grow in general and each strain.

also, something more to share here on IC

 

[theother]

I dont. Prob should have but i just havent felt the urge to snap photos of the house garden lately with the issues. Its really not even that bad but when you have seen certain results for the past 10 years its heartbreaking honestly.

Maybe ill snap some photos and see if you can even see anything. The main issue pysically at this point is taller then normal and much weaker, thinner branches. Not expecting huge colas but at least want that extra frost they have been missing lately.

Oh ya, definitely take pictures and whether it's good or bad throw it up on ic. I swear I really only post pics when it's bad! I always come here for help. You'll get a lot of the same ol same ol, but most of the time someone will cut to the quick of the issue and that always helps.

 

[Mikell]

Actually Mikell, for whatever reason when i did this formula based on the link this is what it came too.

"There should be 14 cubic feet of air for each cubic foot of gas burned (Flood, 1999)"

So in my situation according to this this works out to 193.2cfm of fresh air when the burner is running. But what this information gives me overall is confusing for me to put into action. I know understand what you were saying in earlier posts about figuring out my burners oxygen demands. Im just a little slow.

Hah, don't worry, it afflicts us all. I frequently run calculations twice and can still get the wrong answer.

Cubic area of room is 2x(11x11x8')?

4-burner 12,000 btu?

Any idea how long it ran per hour?


Maximum Yield - this article is incredibly frustrating, they neither mention difference in output of natural gas and propane, relation to plant density nor cubic footage of the room, but does give us this simple formula, that we can compare with whatever oddball answer derived from other sources/hokey mathematics.

For example, a 24,000 BTU CO2 generator requires about five cubic feet (CF) of air per minute of functioning. So if a generator burns for 15 minutes per hour, it requires five by 15 = 75 CF per hour of fresh air. Thus, a 100 CFM fan has to work about one minute per hour to replenish the oxygen supply to ensure complete combustion.

 

[Lao Tzu]

I try and split up rooms to 4kw min to 9kw max to be able to use bottled co2 and stagger harvests with control over final wk temps. much less headache that way. even in sealed rooms i exchange air every few hrs.

 

[TrichCrazy5280]

Hah, don't worry, it afflicts us all. I frequently run calculations twice and can still get the wrong answer.

Cubic area of room is 2x(11x11x8')?

4-burner 12,000 btu?

Any idea how long it ran per hour?


Maximum Yield - this article is incredibly frustrating, they neither mention difference in output of natural gas and propane, relation to plant density nor cubic footage of the room, but does give us this simple formula, that we can compare with whatever oddball answer derived from other sources/hokey mathematics.

For example, a 24,000 BTU CO2 generator requires about five cubic feet (CF) of air per minute of functioning. So if a generator burns for 15 minutes per hour, it requires five by 15 = 75 CF per hour of fresh air. Thus, a 100 CFM fan has to work about one minute per hour to replenish the oxygen supply to ensure complete combustion.

The cubic ft of the entire room is 3101

Sentinel suggest 5 burners(14,000btu) for the size of the room.

It takes 12 mintues to fill the room to 1200ppm.

Exhaust- 1708cfm
intake- 1019cfm


SO according to my math it should take about 1 minute
to exchange all the air in the room. Just to be safe i am going to round up to 1.5 minutes.

My plan was to Exchange the rooms air every 30 minutes for 1.5 minutes. So after the room is cleared out it takes 12 minutes to fill back up to 1200ppm it sits in the gas for the remaining 18 minutes then starts over. IT was either that or 1.5-2 minutes every hour.

Still trying to determine how often for night time air exchanges. Maybe 2-3 times 12 hrs.

 

[TrichCrazy5280]

Another update.

One thing i am noticing now is that the stems are begging to harden off and become more sturdy now. Compared to other runs then stems remained weak and softer the entire run. They are not necessarily getting much bigger but are stronger.

Mushroom/Anaerobic smell is now gone and am not seeing mushrooms continuing to grow anymore our of the soil. Unfortunately these plants when damaged this way don't respond as well to my ritual 10 day into flwr lolly popping. I have noticed they really slowed down on drinking now. Typically after cleaning up the bottoms heavily i notice they slow down by a day or two on water but then they are right back on track.

Some photos at day 18 of what i am looking at from whatever was causing this problem. I will find out after the air test results are completed.

As you can see the stalks are of decent size but typically are stronger.

If you look closely you can see two spots where i super cropped them, not the size knots i am used to seeing. PLus look how small the stems leading to the buds are. About 1/4 of the normal size.

another example of where i bent the plant but the repair is very small. I like to see big crazy knots with a substantially bigger stem above the repaired damage.

Just showing that i am seeing trichs around day 18 after installing proper room air exchanges. Previous runs were even more delayed with maturation. Day 18 would have looked more like that 12.

 

[fishwhistle]

12x12x8,6k gavitas,mini split,santa fe dehuey,same problems as you,switched to bottled,GONE.Seen a few of my buddies get frustrated and cut holes to vent(lights out only needed BTW!)and it works but if they tried bottled first it probably would have done the trick for them.Burners dont work good in truely sealed small rooms,at least for me and my friends anyways.After this run i would use all new soil too,you will be fine.
Another thing that i would like to say is someone brought up earlier about a tomato plant in your grow for detecting ethylene better than any air test,they are right!Tomatoes are VERY sensitive to any ethylene(ask a greenhouse guy)and will wilt fast in its presence,just a quick test.