I'm suprised someone hasn't come up with a wysiwyg editor for it yet. I'm definitely gonna start getting more serious about it. I'm changing less lately and that makes it more tempting to dial stuff in.
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Experienced Sealed Room Growers needed
- Thread starter TrichCrazy5280
- Start date
I'm suprised someone hasn't come up with a wysiwyg editor for it yet. I'm definitely gonna start getting more serious about it. I'm changing less lately and that makes it more tempting to dial stuff in.
TrichCrazy5280
Member
I begin to give a whole breakdown of my entire growing process but i figured I might save that for a grow journal on here. Ill stick to the most important factors that i think are relevant. If i am missing any important points please let me know.
My veg room grows very lush and healthy plants so ill just start in the room that seems to cause the issues. You can peep in my photos for a couple shots of the veg
FLOWERING ROOM:
8- 1000watt HPS/MH(switchable) NON AIR COOLED, NO GLASS, magnum xxxl hoods.
4 ton split system AC. The air handler is in the room, compressor outside. Duct out with rigid insulated metal ducting. Air return is at the bottom of the air handler
Quest 155 dual dehumidifier(155 pints a day) Drains water into my Air conditioners condensation pump out of the room and down the drain.
Sentinel CO2 Generator - Natural Gas 6000-27000 Btu This is tapped into my houses natural gas line by a licensed plumber. I operate at Sentinels suggestion of 5 of ten burners for the cubic ft of my space(3101cubic ft)
This room was completely sealed with no intake or exhaust at the point of problems. This problem has prevailed for the last 4-5 harvests over the last year with this configuration.
PLANT INFORMATION:
I flower in either 7 or 10 gallon pots at 4 plants per 1000watt light @ 62.5 watts per square foot. After a proper veg(8 weeks) i am expecting 15-20 very aggressive stems per plant. They are grown in soil, typically vermisoil with added perlite and dolomite lime.
When the plants are first transferred into the flower room I usually give them a few additional days of veg in that space before flowering. Here is the breakdown of what the conditions were like.
Transition/early flower (weeks 1-2)
Temps: Day 82 (on purpose) Night: 72-75
Co2:1200-1500ppm (was not venting before lights out)(entire cycle)
Humidity: 50-60%
Nutrient EC: 1.6-2.0 every watering(about 3 times a week)
Mid flower(weeks 3-6ish)
Temps: Day: 78-80 Night: 69-72
Humidity: 45-55%
Nutrient Ec: 2.0-2.4 every watering.
Late Flower: (weeks 7-9)
Temps: 76-78
Humidity: 40-45%
Nutrient EC: Flushing
ENVIRONMENTAL INFORMATION:
Distance to canopy
Starts at around 24-30 inches at first and will finish with bulbs around 18-20 at the finish.
Plenty of wall fans going to ensure the plants are moving and being replenished constantly. Except at night the wall fans come on for short periods of time periodically. 15mins per hour.
The fan inside my ac handler is running 24hours. Its air return is down low so my hopes was that the co2 would be completely mixed and consistent throughout the room during lights on. Also ill mention inside the Ac air handler plenom i installed a Reme uv light air purifier(not a ozone generator)http://www.amazon.com/RGF-HVAC-305-Purification-System-Light/dp/B004199V74
I was not paying all that much attention to how long the burner WAS running but from just being in the garden it seemed like it was coming on for a couple minutes every half hour or so. IT just kept bumping itself up from 1150 back up to around 1250.
But since i have changed things up with installing the fresh air intake and exhaust and Since then i have found new information about my room and how long it takes to fill the room to saturation and how long it takes me to exchange all the air in the room.
It takes 12 mintues to fill the room to 1200ppm with 5 burners @ 13,835btu or 13.8 cu ft/hr co2.
Exhaust- 1708cfm
intake- 1019cfm
So, according to my math it should take about 1 minute
to exchange all the air in the room. Just to be safe because of carbon and intake filters, i am going to round up to 1.5-2 minutes.
My plan is to Exchange the rooms air every 30 minutes for 1.5 minutes. So after the room is cleared out it takes 12 minutes to fill back up to 1200ppm it sits in the gas for the remaining 18 minutes then starts over.
This current design is currently showing signs of improvement for the plants.
After this run is complete I will be switching to bottled co2 and then i can update this thread to see what differences i see as well as keeping the current run updated till harvest.
If i have seemingly missed anything please let me know, im sure i did. Thanks
My veg room grows very lush and healthy plants so ill just start in the room that seems to cause the issues. You can peep in my photos for a couple shots of the veg
FLOWERING ROOM:
8- 1000watt HPS/MH(switchable) NON AIR COOLED, NO GLASS, magnum xxxl hoods.
4 ton split system AC. The air handler is in the room, compressor outside. Duct out with rigid insulated metal ducting. Air return is at the bottom of the air handler
Quest 155 dual dehumidifier(155 pints a day) Drains water into my Air conditioners condensation pump out of the room and down the drain.
Sentinel CO2 Generator - Natural Gas 6000-27000 Btu This is tapped into my houses natural gas line by a licensed plumber. I operate at Sentinels suggestion of 5 of ten burners for the cubic ft of my space(3101cubic ft)
This room was completely sealed with no intake or exhaust at the point of problems. This problem has prevailed for the last 4-5 harvests over the last year with this configuration.
PLANT INFORMATION:
I flower in either 7 or 10 gallon pots at 4 plants per 1000watt light @ 62.5 watts per square foot. After a proper veg(8 weeks) i am expecting 15-20 very aggressive stems per plant. They are grown in soil, typically vermisoil with added perlite and dolomite lime.
When the plants are first transferred into the flower room I usually give them a few additional days of veg in that space before flowering. Here is the breakdown of what the conditions were like.
Transition/early flower (weeks 1-2)
Temps: Day 82 (on purpose) Night: 72-75
Co2:1200-1500ppm (was not venting before lights out)(entire cycle)
Humidity: 50-60%
Nutrient EC: 1.6-2.0 every watering(about 3 times a week)
Mid flower(weeks 3-6ish)
Temps: Day: 78-80 Night: 69-72
Humidity: 45-55%
Nutrient Ec: 2.0-2.4 every watering.
Late Flower: (weeks 7-9)
Temps: 76-78
Humidity: 40-45%
Nutrient EC: Flushing
ENVIRONMENTAL INFORMATION:
Distance to canopy
Starts at around 24-30 inches at first and will finish with bulbs around 18-20 at the finish.
Plenty of wall fans going to ensure the plants are moving and being replenished constantly. Except at night the wall fans come on for short periods of time periodically. 15mins per hour.
The fan inside my ac handler is running 24hours. Its air return is down low so my hopes was that the co2 would be completely mixed and consistent throughout the room during lights on. Also ill mention inside the Ac air handler plenom i installed a Reme uv light air purifier(not a ozone generator)http://www.amazon.com/RGF-HVAC-305-Purification-System-Light/dp/B004199V74
I was not paying all that much attention to how long the burner WAS running but from just being in the garden it seemed like it was coming on for a couple minutes every half hour or so. IT just kept bumping itself up from 1150 back up to around 1250.
But since i have changed things up with installing the fresh air intake and exhaust and Since then i have found new information about my room and how long it takes to fill the room to saturation and how long it takes me to exchange all the air in the room.
It takes 12 mintues to fill the room to 1200ppm with 5 burners @ 13,835btu or 13.8 cu ft/hr co2.
Exhaust- 1708cfm
intake- 1019cfm
So, according to my math it should take about 1 minute
to exchange all the air in the room. Just to be safe because of carbon and intake filters, i am going to round up to 1.5-2 minutes.
My plan is to Exchange the rooms air every 30 minutes for 1.5 minutes. So after the room is cleared out it takes 12 minutes to fill back up to 1200ppm it sits in the gas for the remaining 18 minutes then starts over.
This current design is currently showing signs of improvement for the plants.
After this run is complete I will be switching to bottled co2 and then i can update this thread to see what differences i see as well as keeping the current run updated till harvest.
If i have seemingly missed anything please let me know, im sure i did. Thanks
TrichCrazy5280
Member
I Agree with everything you are saying, i believe it can work but im not willing to be the one to determine this
To many factors at hand with not enough information to back them up. At least not that im willing to determine at this time. Im just ready to get rockin and rolling again.
What honestly just floors me is that the world ethylene never came up once in the burners manuals. You would really thing that the manufacturers of these products would be aware of this potential problem and inform the consumer. I blame myself for not getting on here sooner and doing more thorough investigating though but i think they would sell more burners if they made that info available.
Wow you guys are super nerdy, I LOVE IT. My brain does not handle things like you talking about here but i rely on people like you guys to come up sweet engineered products that i can buy
I begin to give a whole breakdown of my entire growing process but i figured I might save that for a grow journal on here. Ill stick to the most important factors that i think are relevant. If i am missing any important points please let me know.
My veg room grows very lush and healthy plants so ill just start in the room that seems to cause the issues. You can peep in my photos for a couple shots of the veg
FLOWERING ROOM:
8- 1000watt HPS/MH(switchable) NON AIR COOLED, NO GLASS, magnum xxxl hoods.
4 ton split system AC. The air handler is in the room, compressor outside. Duct out with rigid insulated metal ducting. Air return is at the bottom of the air handler
Quest 155 dual dehumidifier(155 pints a day) Drains water into my Air conditioners condensation pump out of the room and down the drain.
Sentinel CO2 Generator - Natural Gas 6000-27000 Btu This is tapped into my houses natural gas line by a licensed plumber. I operate at Sentinels suggestion of 5 of ten burners for the cubic ft of my space(3101cubic ft)
This room was completely sealed with no intake or exhaust at the point of problems. This problem has prevailed for the last 4-5 harvests over the last year with this configuration.
PLANT INFORMATION:
I flower in either 7 or 10 gallon pots at 4 plants per 1000watt light @ 62.5 watts per square foot. After a proper veg(8 weeks) i am expecting 15-20 very aggressive stems per plant. They are grown in soil, typically vermisoil with added perlite and dolomite lime.
When the plants are first transferred into the flower room I usually give them a few additional days of veg in that space before flowering. Here is the breakdown of what the conditions were like.
Transition/early flower (weeks 1-2)
Temps: Day 82 (on purpose) Night: 72-75
Co2:1200-1500ppm (was not venting before lights out)(entire cycle)
Humidity: 50-60%
Nutrient EC: 1.6-2.0 every watering(about 3 times a week)
Mid flower(weeks 3-6ish)
Temps: Day: 78-80 Night: 69-72
Humidity: 45-55%
Nutrient Ec: 2.0-2.4 every watering.
Late Flower: (weeks 7-9)
Temps: 76-78
Humidity: 40-45%
Nutrient EC: Flushing
ENVIRONMENTAL INFORMATION:
Distance to canopy
Starts at around 24-30 inches at first and will finish with bulbs around 18-20 at the finish.
Plenty of wall fans going to ensure the plants are moving and being replenished constantly. Except at night the wall fans come on for short periods of time periodically. 15mins per hour.
The fan inside my ac handler is running 24hours. Its air return is down low so my hopes was that the co2 would be completely mixed and consistent throughout the room during lights on. Also ill mention inside the Ac air handler plenom i installed a Reme uv light air purifier(not a ozone generator)http://www.amazon.com/RGF-HVAC-305-Purification-System-Light/dp/B004199V74
I was not paying all that much attention to how long the burner WAS running but from just being in the garden it seemed like it was coming on for a couple minutes every half hour or so. IT just kept bumping itself up from 1150 back up to around 1250.
But since i have changed things up with installing the fresh air intake and exhaust and Since then i have found new information about my room and how long it takes to fill the room to saturation and how long it takes me to exchange all the air in the room.
It takes 12 mintues to fill the room to 1200ppm with 5 burners @ 13,835btu or 13.8 cu ft/hr co2.
Exhaust- 1708cfm
intake- 1019cfm
So, according to my math it should take about 1 minute
to exchange all the air in the room. Just to be safe because of carbon and intake filters, i am going to round up to 1.5-2 minutes.
My plan is to Exchange the rooms air every 30 minutes for 1.5 minutes. So after the room is cleared out it takes 12 minutes to fill back up to 1200ppm it sits in the gas for the remaining 18 minutes then starts over.
This current design is currently showing signs of improvement for the plants.
After this run is complete I will be switching to bottled co2 and then i can update this thread to see what differences i see as well as keeping the current run updated till harvest.
If i have seemingly missed anything please let me know, im sure i did. Thanks
I know you mentioned it elsewhere but what are the dimensions of your room?mdo the fans hit the tops? One final thing, what strains are you running?
The lamp height is something I would work on. Usually low at flip then get them up to 30" or even more without glass as soon as they show flowers. I try to be rediculously diligent about measuring and adjusting the height. A lot of stuff I run is par sensitive. Unfortunately these tend to be the more commercially viable varieties. It's unrelated to this issue but that is something you might find extremely rewarding, generally size and grease are increased substantially.
Ah, I love the abundance of information. Much appreciate the contribution Trich. Apologies, I can appear very unclear and muddled, which is less appearance than reality...
Comparison is one aspect, from one grower to another, and from one system to another (different burners [and fuels], direct CO2, and to a lesser extent fermentation). Building a baseline for others to work from is the main goal, instead of this poking around in the dark. I also am curious if O supplementation is possible to avoid air exchange, but that's another tale and my understanding of combustion is much in need of fluffing out/expansion prior to heading that direction.
I'm going to put together a form similar to the one in the Infirmary, a simple question/answer. At the least it will save time of anyone helpful enough to provide information.
Comparison is one aspect, from one grower to another, and from one system to another (different burners [and fuels], direct CO2, and to a lesser extent fermentation). Building a baseline for others to work from is the main goal, instead of this poking around in the dark. I also am curious if O supplementation is possible to avoid air exchange, but that's another tale and my understanding of combustion is much in need of fluffing out/expansion prior to heading that direction.
I'm going to put together a form similar to the one in the Infirmary, a simple question/answer. At the least it will save time of anyone helpful enough to provide information.
IntelliGeneS
Member
My understanding isn't complete by a long shot, so please correct me if I have it wrong, but I was under the impression that ethylene would only be generated by incomplete combustion. Assuming that this is the case, manuals don't usually consider improper use or faulty installation, do they? I'd say that it wouldn't be unreasonable for the manufacturer to assume that a heater or burner would be installed with adequate access to oxygen for complete combustion. Even so, if it's a risk I agree that it would be good to have it included in the manual of a product which is geared toward horticulture. But then I'm appalled by the quality of most manuals I've come across, they mostly seem to be wards against lawsuits rather than vehicles of information.
I had an experience with what I can only assume was a defective heater in a greenhouse which was causing what appeared to be ethylene-induced effects on plants, but I was never able to detect elevated ethylene levels. I ended up not using that greenhouse anymore, so I don't know if it was ever solved.
I think the problem here is that what the manufacturers would have you believe is an appropriate space to run a gen in actually isn't. If you walked into a hydro store and said I have a 15x10 or a 20x10 room they would absolutely point you towards a burner.
Still not saying definitely that it's the issue but gardens that I see burners work in tend to be larger spaces that aren't completely packed with plants. Basements with lung rooms that total like 1000 sq ft but have the same amount of lamps and plants as these smaller rooms tend to do better. I also know of smaller rooms with very small gardens that successfully use a burner.
I'm not speaking for trich or any of the other people, but I firmly believe the answer lies somewhere on relation to the biomass of the room compared to the overall volume of the room. I think some byproduct of combustion is the culprit (be it Ethelyne or something else). I believe it happens more at some point in the burn and and the smaller rooms with more plants generally cycle the burners more. If you really insisted on making a burner work I think the answer would involve using a smaller number of burners and adjusting the dead and of the controller, and turning over air.
Again, just my opinion, and it could well turn out to make the condition worse, it's possible it happens the ought the burn and it gets worse the longer it burns, I really don't know.
I say bottled gas ftw.
i really like the idea of cryogenic co2 personally. its easily the densest form of co2 ignoring dry ice.
just you know... keep your kids and shit away from it.
these burners are really just heaters adapted from greenhouse use. the only reason they make sense, financially speaking is because natural gas is so cheap, however natural gas has loads of the ethane and butanes that are probably responsible for the ethylene.
i would be interested to see if another combustion tech, would be more suitable to this task... im thinking something like a air atomized oil burning type furnace running on methanol would work well... though methanol is going to cost gobs more than co2 tanks.
just you know... keep your kids and shit away from it.
these burners are really just heaters adapted from greenhouse use. the only reason they make sense, financially speaking is because natural gas is so cheap, however natural gas has loads of the ethane and butanes that are probably responsible for the ethylene.
i would be interested to see if another combustion tech, would be more suitable to this task... im thinking something like a air atomized oil burning type furnace running on methanol would work well... though methanol is going to cost gobs more than co2 tanks.
Looked into labview a bit. It's intimidating but not impossible, really like a mix of every windows software and wordpress in a way. It looks like it's compiled from SQL databases and it's not to hard to create a GUI, seems to be set up where the databases can all be edited at once (ALS Wordpress) which should make it easier. I'm gonna guess it's plenty clunky in it's own way though. Really can't imagine a better solution to what I am thinking of though. gonna try and convince myself to start one of these days, will probably be pm-ing you for hints in the hardware side of things for sure.
tussenvanons
New member
Just wanted to thank everyone on here who contributed. I was on the fence between a co2 burner and bottled co2. I was leaning toward bottled before this (mostly because of heat and having a fire going, yea just trying to reduce hazards not add them) and now I'm definitely going 100% bottled keeping it around or under 1000ppm.
Good call man, bottled ftw!!!
TrichCrazy5280
Member
I agree completely. It did say that carbon monoxide would be created without complete combustion and i would know its not burning correctly but the color of the flame(which was always the correct color). I am now under the impression that ethylene can still be created when the burner is burning the correct colored flames but i am not 100%. I would just think they could have least given the customer the required cfm of fresh air needed to combust correctly. I was just misinformed, i tried searching "sealed grow rooms with co2 burners" and things like that but never came across ethylene, just reading that would have been enough for me to switch to tanks immediately.
The dimensions are roughly 37x13x7. I got to thinking and this is simply just an idea. I have a lot of extra space in the grow area, by no means is it crammed with plants. I personally like lots of working area and just want a productive smaller garden. Anyways. I wonder if a possible variable could be that i simply dont have enough plants in the space that i filling with co2. Could it make sense that if i had more plants/lights in the room then maybe my oxygen levels would be higher which results in the burner operating properly without producing ethylene. I am learning there is just to many variables with to little available knowledge information to make it worth doing indoors in sealed rooms or any room for that matter.
I agree, my celings are a bit low and i grow bigger plants. some are in that range but some i have to really bend and work hard to keep them lower. I also just changed how i am vegging them with lots of t5s vs 4 600watt MH, this will hopefully help keep the plants a few inches shorter. At the warehouse grows I keep them in your suggested range. Im just running out of space and i gotta have some OG!!
I run a variety of strains and swap out every once and awhile. the staples are now
Tahoe OG, pre98 bubba, white urkle, grape ape, Tangerine(RMT), strawberry cough x bubba kush,
That would be awesome man, thanks so much. Im sure there will be lots of people in the near future with similar issues and im sure lots of em will end up here like i did
I know there is a way to figure this system out, i just dont know if i am going to be the guy that figures it out, lol.
I also know people currently that are smashing numbers with a burner but they also use gavitas, larger space, hydro etc. TO many variables that are different from mine. Im just hard headed and wanted it to work. I should have listened to my gut from the beginning and went with bottles but I guess i also would not be learning what i am...but damn this is a costly lesson to learn.
Glad this helped you make your decision, makes this all worth it now
Ill keep the burner around for the future in case more info becomes more readily known and available.
shredGnar
Member
Yes this topic has been gone over already. That is the conclusion that i have temporarily came to until a test provides me with more info. The whole time i thought i had enough oxygen because my burners flames were burning the correct color blue. But i guess it can still burn blue AND create ethylene.
You are probably the 5th person who has said they switched to bottles with success. This is the game plan after this round. Anyone looking for a good deal on a sentinel burner
Thanks for the reply
I don't know if this has been mentioned.. however I just noticed you also live at altitude.
I wonder if the less dense air has anything to do with it.
I learned of this problem from getogrow, and I believe be lives in our state as well.
My grow also doesn't have much headroom either, further limiting O2 amounts.
I'm sure there is parameters that when figured out the burner works great. But honestly I think I'll stick with the tanks, as much as I hate getting them filled every 6 days..oh well...
TheyCallMeJJay
Member
It's been my personal experience that things get "fucky" over 1000 ppm. This is my second cycle on C02, and I'm getting fabulous results with Burner+propane.
There's a lot of conversation in regards to gas not burned during ignition here. There's certainly merit to it, and I feel that it strongly poses an issue. That said, I think the optimum scenario would be a continuous burn. If even achievable. IMHO, I think the market requirements are over-sized. I have a 2 burner and I will be exploring modifying it to 1. Basically plug one off.
Also, I have began to vent at "lights out". I did so because I convinced my self that running organic soils, I require oxygen at all times.
There's a lot of conversation in regards to gas not burned during ignition here. There's certainly merit to it, and I feel that it strongly poses an issue. That said, I think the optimum scenario would be a continuous burn. If even achievable. IMHO, I think the market requirements are over-sized. I have a 2 burner and I will be exploring modifying it to 1. Basically plug one off.
Also, I have began to vent at "lights out". I did so because I convinced my self that running organic soils, I require oxygen at all times.
TheyCallMeJJay
Member
Count me in as curious regarding O. In my mind I feel it's just as important as CO2. In particular with roots and organics.
I know people that burry air stones in their soil beds. Just put the pump outside the sealed bloom room and count on oxygen in the root zone.
Fwiw I don't think the co2 effects root zone health. I do see merit to the air stone in the root zone on it's own account though. If I was gonna do beds or less larger pots I would consider it. The way I see it now though, life is hard enough without a million air tubes.
If I was gonna do it with lots of pots, I think group them all along the walls and run them out laterally into the room. I'm my experience so far things running the long way in your deal make life a living hell.
You can get some big ass commercial air pumps that can do a lot of stones. I think the amount of non enriched air added would be along the lines of well sealed air cooled lights.
thats retarded.
whats wrong with high pore space mediums? theyve been around for like 30 years in horticulture.
more frequent, but lower volume waterings is the key.
1:1 peat and perlite, aka cornell peat lite is easy, though i do coco lite owing to lack of good reasonably priced Canadian spagnum down here in texas.
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/floriculture/plugs/ghsubfert.pdf
this paper is golden.
Like I said, not really my thing. Fwiw I have been extremely happy with more coco based soils lately. I see more benefits than disadvantages, one of the primary ones being the airiness of the media, coco traps more air and water/nutes than a heavy peat based mix, and you can see it in the plants. Seems to be a touchy mix though, I have not enjoyed every coir based soil I have used.
For the point of what these guys are worrying about though, I think the airstone pump thing would put them at ease. I personally can not imagine 1k-1.5k ppm of co2 having that much of an effect on biology. There is certainly biology in the soil at elevation and this is no different than that.
I think if you are having a problem in a sealed room, it's more than likely going to be incomplete combustion of some kind with a burner, or some potential off gassing in your room. I do not believe the co2 alone is going to cause the issue. Other environmental factors of some kind are the logical place to start.
Plant health is just a fine line to walk. So many things effect it and for whatever reason things tend to compound. Some times it's an overcrowded room and then a touch of vpd or some other environmental factor, and the whole thing comes down like a house of cards.
I am really interested in the effects of water volume on plant health, it's worth starting another thread for honestly. Definitely different soils respond different ways. Also organic vs synthetic is gonna be a huge factor. The balance between biology and synthetics came up in another thread and this point is 100% germane to that issue. I believe a higher percentage of coir (not pith) helps a lot with the balance of runoff vs enough air in the root zone.
That's a good point to look into right there! The burner that I just got does have this quick mention, "Also adjust flame size for altitude"
The instructions only say "This adjustment can also be used to make slight fuel increase for high altitude applications, however the IR model generator is less sensitive to elevation variations and is usually not necessary."
