Effective Microorganisms, aka EM

[mad librettist]

well maybe you should check the wiki page for L. plantarum, which is definitely in my EM:

L. plantarum is a Gram-positive aerotolerant bacteria that grows at 15 °C (59 °F) but not at 45 °C (113 °F), and produces both isomers of lactic acid (D and L). This species and related lactobacilli are unusual in that they can respire oxygen but have no respiratory chain or cytochromes—the consumed oxygen ultimately ends up as hydrogen peroxide. The peroxide probably acts as a weapon to exclude competing bacteria from the food source. In place of the protective enzyme superoxide dismutase present in almost all other oxygen-tolerant cells, this organism accumulates millimolar quantities of manganese. Manganese is also used by L. plantarum in a pseudo-catalase to lower reactive oxygen levels. Because the chemistry by which manganese complexes protect the cells from oxygen damage is subverted by iron, these cells contain virtually no iron atoms; in contrast, a cell of Escherichia coli of comparable volume contains over one million iron atoms. Because of this L. plantarum cannot be used to produce active enzymes that require a heme complex such as true catalases.

So I think we have ourselves a facultative anaerobe that can respire aerobically.

Where are you going with this? have you seen how much it helps old house plants? or new gardens? could you please cite every claim you make or at least explain it? I'm getting red flags and don't feel I should have to disprove every line when you won't support any. I'm not here trying to figure out if it helps gardens. Seen it firsthand. And it could not have been something else I did, as I did nothing else. I want to know why it helps gardens. And dog breath while we are at it.

And what makes you think your indoor soil should be any different from your outdoor soil? Or that anaerobic pockets can only happen deep? Or that legumes don't form little nodes to give anaerobic N fixers a home? I have a feeling that in the process of finding sources to back all this stuff up you will just change your mind.

 

[secondtry]

There is a major difference between indoor soil mixes which are designed to be light and aerobic,

Indoor mixes are anything but light and aerobic. Peat and coir based mixes both have below 15% air porosity, which is the minimum for healthy plant growth, sure they loose moister and have more air porosity but every time they are watered the roots are 'drowning' as most all peat and coir based soilless mixes (over 2,000 different mixes were tested) have a moisture content at watering (container capacity; CC) of greater than 70%; over 65% is considered to becoming anaerobic conditions. In soilless media there are pockets with more dry and most moist sections, ie., the bottom is always more moist than the top and is going to be more anaerobic than the top. In shorter containers this is worse, more media stays moist due to perched water tables and other issues of water tensions and soil physics.

Facultative anaerobes are just anaerobes that can live in the presence of O2.

Which realtes to why PnSB can be found in various healthy horticultural soils.

I have never really heard of anaerobes being important for healthy soil,

Have you read much of academia? You can't throw a stone without finding work on this topic; try Google scholar and seach around India and Pakistan, both are very active here, as is Indonesia I think.

they are decomposers, that create acids and alcohols to facilitate the decomp of organic matter.

And aerobic microbes don't do that exact same thing? (minus the alcohol in most cases)

But I can use worm castings in an ACT to culture beneficial aerobic bacteria, fungi, protozae and nemotodes.

What is your point here? I think I am missing something...

Not all of the anaerobes in EM are facultative anaerobes, and PNSB needs both light and anaerobic conditions to thrive

PnSB do fine without light, but they are anaerobes, just not obligate.

With all I can find on actinobacter, this looks very dangerous and I am not sure I want to be dealing with it, Acinetobacter, which is an important soil microbe but is strictly aerobic, so could not come out of EM.

It's the latter, and yes it is in some EM mother cultures AFAIK. No one here (or at last I don't) is claiming EM mothers cultures are correct in their microbial makeup, it has changed over the years; but that is not the same as claiming EM has no horticultural uses which is false, there are reams of studies on this topic.

HTH

 

[scotianmeds]

Please read the rest of what you just posted. If this can create a colony in the medium then it will release hydrogen peroxide instead of O2, which will damage the rest of the microherd. In trying to create a diverse microherd containing beneficial aerobic bacteria, symbiatic fungi, protozae and nemotodes this is not a positive thing. I just think that EM's purpose is to be a decompser, that also controls odour, and not to be an indoor soil conditioner, like myco

 

[secondtry]

Hey,

Is that post to me? I'm confused who you are referring to. Anyway, I suggest you read some white papers on this topic, like I wrote, there are many to choose from.

PnSB are found in ACT, not always, but they are present in vermicast (they come from worm gut) and hence they are found in ACT. The PnSB also come from compost, but are more often found in fresh high quality vermicast. The PnSB then find there way into media from the ACT. So I assume you are already applying PnSB, good work!

FWIW, I am pretty sure MM wrote that he finds yeast in ACT and soil samples, yeast as in EM.

HTH

 

[scotianmeds]

Please tell me if indoor soil mixes are not designed to be light and airy please tell me what they are? Coco peat can hold 1000 times more air then soil, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coco_Peat. The goal in indoor growing is to create an aerobic condition for roots as roots REQUIRE air. If you don't think so so put your plants in a bucket of stagnant water, and see how long they last before they sufficate, lol.
My point is simple that there are naturally aerobic microbes in castings that will create a symbiotic relationship with the medium and the plants, EM does not do this. Simple.

And with aerobic microbes they decompose organic matter by means of enzymes, not acids and alcohols, that is why most growers avoid anaerobics unless using them as a decomposer.

 

[secondtry]

P.S. that is one reason it's suggested to allow light to reach your ACT while it's brewing.

 

[scotianmeds]

I never said that EM does not have any horticultural uses in fact I said that I use it as a decomposer to break down my alfalfa and kelp before adding it my ACT. From all of the research I have done, it states that PNSB are basically undetectable in the presence of O2, and only really thrives in anaerobic conditions.

"In looking for the purple non-sulfur bacteria, we find it most advantageous to set up conditions for photoheterotrophic growth, utilizing a source of light, anaerobic conditions (needed for phototrophic growth by these organisms), no hydrogen sulfide, and an organic carbon source not generally used by other bacteria under these conditions such as sodium succinate or malate. Note the medium formulas below. Not only will most other types of organisms be restricted from growing, but the purple non-sulfur photosynthetic bacteria will be easily recognized by the presence of photosynthetic pigments. When substantial pigmented growth shows up in the liquid medium or is seen in the natural source, it is referred to as a "bloom."

One may expect these organisms in their most likely habitat – i.e., anaerobic mud in ponds and lakes where there is access to sunlight. Other successful sources where they can be found as easily-recoverable contaminants include surface water from streams, bogs and transient puddles – and even rain, snow, icicles and hailstones! High concentrations of these organisms have even been found in the water trapped by the leaves of bromeliads and pitcher plants. Soil and flat leaf surfaces are worth a try."
http://www.splammo.net/bact102/102pnsb.html

So PnSB is not usually found in soil.

"In looking for the purple non-sulfur bacteria, we find it most advantageous to set up conditions for photoheterotrophic growth, utilizing a source of light, anaerobic conditions (needed for phototrophic growth by these organisms), no hydrogen sulfide, and an organic carbon source not generally used by other bacteria under these conditions such as sodium succinate or malate."

Please cite me where I can find info on PNSB in worm castings.

 

[secondtry]

Please tell me if indoor soil mixes are not designed to be light and airy please tell me what they are?

No there were not, they were designed to hold more water and elements (ie. higher CEC) then their the original soilless meida, ie., aged bark fines and very coarse/long peat. The change to peat happened in the 60's-70's and that has been the standard ever since, which really sucks. The only reason the switch was made from light and airy mix like aged pine bark fines to peat is because the industry was spending too much on water bills and the ground water was getting polluted while cleanup costs where rising, the solution: media which holds more water and more N and P.

The irony is peat and coir have very high rates of "evapotranspiration" which means around 20-30% of the plant available water held by peat and coir evaporates into the air, while most plant available water from bark mixes goes to the plant; thus making the weighted amount of plant available water in peat and bark based mixes almost the same.

Please read the PFDs from this NCSU site, the data I am referring to comes from the NSCU labs visa vis their porometer.

North Carolina State University: Horticultural Substrates Lab:
http://www.ncsu.edu/project/hortsublab/pubs/index.html

Coco peat can hold 1000 times more air then soil, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coco_Peat. The goal in indoor growing is to create an aerobic condition for roots as roots REQUIRE air.

The NCSU porometer finds 100% coir hold only 9-11% air porosity. According to Corneel U lower than 12% AP will stop growth of plant, while other papers find lower than 10% AP will stop growth.

Comparing coir to soil is like comparing apples to ornges. Most soil has around 50% total porosity with aournd 25% AP and 25% water-filled porosity (WFP). [note only a % of the WFP is available to plants]. While most soilless media has a TP of > 75%, 100% coir is a TP of > 90% (IIRC) with a AP of 9-11% at CC which means that CC is around 75-80% (moisture content)

If you don't think so so put your plants in a bucket of stagnant water, and see how long they last before they sufficate, lol.

Using 100% coir is almost the same thing..

My point is simple that there are naturally aerobic microbes in castings that will create a symbiotic relationship with the medium and the plants, EM does not do this. Simple.

Please show me studies which back up your claims. What about the PnSB in vermicast? They are not aerobic yet they are in ACT and are part of many soil food webs in non-wetlands (for example).

Not be sound like an ass, but you seen to be basing your arguments on what you assume, maybe not such a good plan?

And with aerobic microbes they decompose organic matter by means of enzymes, not acids and alcohols, that is why most growers avoid anaerobics unless using them as a decomposer.

Huh? Have you studied compost science much? If not you may wish to and then revisit that last statement.

HTH, I am going off for while, I don't want this to turn into some kind of fight or pissing contest. I gave you facts, do with them what you will. Have a nice day.

 

[secondtry]

Ok, last post for now:

One may expect these organisms in their most likely habitat – i.e., anaerobic mud in ponds and lakes where there is access to sunlight. Other successful sources where they can be found as easily-recoverable contaminants include surface water from streams, bogs and transient puddles – and even rain, snow, icicles and hailstones! High concentrations of these organisms have even been found in the water trapped by the leaves of bromeliads and pitcher plants. Soil and flat leaf surfaces are worth a try."
http://www.splammo.net/bact102/102pnsb.html

So PnSB is not usually found in soil.

Nowhere in that paragraph did the author claim they are not found in soil, and I did not claim PnSB are "usually" found in soil either. I have cultured them from top soil near a stream which had grass ground in the soil myself.

Use Google scholar and search for the PnSB info yourself, you'll learn more that way and might see other paper you want to read. I can get you full text of almost any paper you may wish to read. Use a search term like "vermicast + purple non sulfur bacteria", or "worm compost + purple non sulfur bacteria", or "worm + purple non sulfur bacteria".

GL

 

[Microbeman]

Mad; What I disgussed was actinobacteria (formerly actinomycetes)
These stringy bacteria do contribute vastly to soil aggregate quality. They are also responsible for that splendid earthy odor we enjoy when disturbing some (ie. forest) soils.

Scotia; Microbes in soil and other environs function in an heirarchical fashion with (for example) one set of microorganisms processing a substance to the point which the next set can process and so on. Thus we have anaerobes acting in tandem with aerobes; sort of like my terra preta theory brief earlier in this thread.

True that the goal of many indoor growers is to have light fluffy pots of soil which are stirred up and replenished between crops. I have had better success with using larger containers and leaving soil intact with heirarchical microbial levels and pockets left intact in between plantings. I leave it to worms and 'bugs' to create the air passages throughout the rhizosphere as they degrade the dead roots, etc.

 

[mad librettist]

Scotian, I don't want to accuse anyone of arguing for the sake of arguing, so I will join the chorus and repeat my request for some kind of source to back up these ideas, which run counter to everything I have learned.

 

[secondtry]

Hey MM,

Thanks. For greater % air porosity using a taller container is a good option, is that what you mean by larger containers? (width doesn't really effect the media physical properties but height sure does).

 

[Microbeman]

Volume of any sort contributes to the critical mass [sic] perhaps necessary for longterm living soil [as in left undisturbed from crop to crop] Media, as you know, needs to be more than something to hold up the plant and support the root system unless of course you are using hydroponic techniques. If so, then I like using pea gravel.

 

[scotianmeds]

I am seriously not going to go any farther with this with you because you are a science expert. If someone says trying to culture a medium in soil is worth a try, it would obviously indicate that this is not there natural habitat, As they prefer anaerobic conditions, as was stated and greatly enjoy light. Your saying that you have cultured this yourself by using soil, and how exactly did you test the composition of this culture, to confirm the presence because as I posted they do not really pigment well in higher O2 levels. They like light which is why most dominate colonies are found in water, preferrably stagnant water.

As for Aerobic bacteria creating acid as the way that they break down organics, have you ever heard of the Nitrogen cycle????

"Ammonification
When a plant dies, an animal dies, or an animal expels waste, the initial form of nitrogen is organic. Bacteria, or in some cases, fungi, convert the organic nitrogen within the remains back into ammonium (NH4+), a process called ammonification or mineralization. Enzymes Involved:
GS: Gln Synthetase (Cytosolic & PLastid)
GOGAT: Glu 2-oxoglutarate aminotransferase (Ferredoxin & NADH dependent)
GDH: Glu Dehydrogenase:
Minor Role in ammonium assimilation.
Important in amino acid catabolism.

As I said anaerobic microbes release alcohol and acids as they are fermentor, fermentation requires a low PH, which most aerobic microbes can not withstand because they do not create acids, they use O2 and enzymes to break down organic matter.

Either way you should do a bit more reading yourself. Coco Coir has an exceptional air filled pourosity 10%, where do you get this stuff from. Try more like 30-40%, with 60-70% water-filled space.

Please post the specific link that shows these 10% results because what you posted did not lead me to any infromation besides a list, please be kind enought to direct me to this study showing it to contain 10% air-filled space. And this is just pure coco, but I amend my coco with about 30% perlite and some other organic materials, as I grow 100% organic.

It is a proven fact that casting include all of which I MENTIONED EARLIER, aerobic beneficial bacteria, myco fungi, beneficial protozae and beneficial nemotodes, all of these things live directly in the root zone and create symbiotic relationships directly with the plants. The most obvious would be the several types of fungi that form the mycorrhizae.

Can you show me what you have actually grown using EM as your choosen soil conditioner.

Either way though I am done with this thread, I see no real cites for anything, and honestly stating that coco coir is like growing in stagnant water makes me kinda think you haven't never grown in this medium. Like if roots did not require O2 then there would be no need for an airstone in DWC or a draining cycle in ebb and flow, we wouldn't need to let our medium dry out to prevent anaerobic conditions.

 

[secondtry]

Hey MM,

ha, nicie [sic]

OK, I see where your going with this, yea that's a good point, I too like no-till for soilless. I would think 'critical mass' in terms of soil food web is independent of bulk density for the most part although the two terms may get confused(?). I wonder what the ideal mass of media would be for soil food web (if there is an ideal). I would think heat and soil respiration could be the two limiting factors in relation to media volume, and maybe in relation to BD as the taller the container the lower the BD (IIRC).

Hmmm, I never thought about that, do you have any info I could read? I'm gonna look into this, that's interesting.

 

[Microbeman]

It is a proven fact that casting include all of which I MENTIONED EARLIER, aerobic beneficial bacteria, myco fungi, beneficial protozae and beneficial nemotodes,

Not mycorrhizae. It does not come from worm castings.
Endomycorrhizal grows only with a host root. (according to current knowledge)

 

[Microbeman]

Hey MM,

ha, nicie [sic]

OK, I see where your going with this, yea that's a good point, I too like no-till for soilless. I would think 'critical mass' in terms of soil food web is independent of bulk density for the most part although the two terms may get confused(?). I wonder what the ideal mass of media would be for soil food web (if there is an ideal). I would think heat and soil respiration could be the two limiting factors in relation to media volume, and maybe in relation to BD as the taller the container the lower the BD (IIRC).

Hmmm, I never thought about that, do you have any info I could read? I'm gonna look into this, that's interesting.

Sorry, no literature research on this. Just my own poking around. You can search for a thread outlining my evolved indoor method (post #4 I think in thread; Food for thought)

I just came to an intuitive thought/observation that the soil is just as alive as the plants but figured that a critical mass [sic] is likely necessary to support a mini eco-system.

 

[scotianmeds]

Scotian, I don't want to accuse anyone of arguing for the sake of arguing, so I will join the chorus and repeat my request for some kind of source to back up these ideas, which run counter to everything I have learned.

Everything that I said I have cited, thats the problem, this is like some sort of crazy cult that you can not disagree with. Librettist, what have you quoted bro.

Microbeman, I seriously respect you and your work, but I am honestly sorry I stopped into this thread. Just so everyone know because I have a few post on this site does not mean that I do not know what I am doing. I am actually a mod on another site but still like to drop in from time to time as this place is always interesting.

Anyhow you can check my old albums to see the mendo purps and OG Kush I grew a few harvests ago. It was grown in canna coco using modified amended hempy type buckets.

I actually have a massive thread on on my methods, PM me if you want the link.

But I am just going to leave this thread now, MM good luck with everything bro.

 

[scotianmeds]

Mycoorrizae is any one of a group naturally occuring aerobic fungi that can and do colonize the roots. Endo is also just one form, but yes these all can be cultured from castings. One of the strongest myco strains is trichoderma, or green mold, which happens to grow naturally and very easily in coco.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycorrhiza

Not mycorrhizae. It does not come from worm castings.
Endomycorrhizal grows only with a host root. (according to current knowledge)

 

[Trichgnomes]

Mycoorrizae is any one of a group naturally occuring aerobic fungi that can and do colonize the roots. Endo is also just one form, but yes these all can be cultured from castings. One of the strongest myco strains is trichoderma, or green mold, which happens to grow naturally and very easily in coco.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycorrhiza

Not that this is the thread to debate mycological taxonomy, but you really should do some research before posting incorrect information.
Current scientific knowledge states there are four basic categories in which mushrooms are placed:
saprophytic
parasitic
mycorrhizal
endophytic

(Paraphrased from Mycelium Running, Chapter 3, pg 19)

Trichoderma, for the record, are saprophytes, or decomposers. Its job is essentially to recycle organic matter.
The reason (I'm assuming, forgive me if I am wrong) that you are confused, is that Trichoderma is often added to Mycorrhizal innoculants such as Plant Success, Myco Madness, et al.
The basis for adding these extra non-mycorrhizal fungal spores is on the 'more is better' philosophy, and this practice is being questioned. There is reason to believe that too high of a ratio of Trichoderma to a true mycorrhizal species, such as Glomus mosseae, can actual inhibit the growth of said mycorrhizae.

Not mycorrhizae. It does not come from worm castings.
Endomycorrhizal grows only with a host root. (according to current knowledge)

This is fact. If you would like to debate it, start a thread, because this one is going a bit off topic on a strange tangent.

Edit: It should be noted that I am not saying fungi do not come from worm castings, but it is often found to be bacterially dominant, due to the symbiotic relationship the worms have with internal beneficial bacteria. However, there will be some fungus, most likely saprophytes and probably some endophytes. If you have photos/ lab reports of mycorrhizae being found in vermicast, then I stand corrected.