Effective Microorganisms, aka EM

[mad librettist]

Everything that I said I have cited, thats the problem

,

Yes that is the problem. You said things, then cited them over and over. I'm asking you to cite references. Starting with your claim that anaerobes are not important to a functioning soil foodweb. (hey, check out the food sources preferred by various protists )

 

[secondtry]

hey trich

N

Trichoderma, for the record, are saprophytes, or decomposers.

Not 100%, they are both, parasitic and saprophytes.

The reason (I'm assuming, forgive me if I am wrong) that you are confused, is that Trichoderma is often added to Mycorrhizal innoculants such as Plant Success, Myco Madness, et al.

Trich is supposed to protect the roots, but there is an ongoing debate wither or not the trich will parasite the AM fungi spores before the spores and sprout. I think it's unwise to add trich to AM fungal spores and most people who study AM fungi seem to agree (verdict is still out tho).

All the best

 

[secondtry]

,

Yes that is the problem. You said things, then cited them over and over. I'm asking you to cite references. Starting with your claim that anaerobes are not important to a functioning soil foodweb. (hey, check out the food sources preferred by various protists )

+1

 

[secondtry]

Your saying that you have cultured this yourself by using soil,

No, I wrote I isolated and culture them from soil. Read the whole thread if you want info on how I culture PnSB.

and how exactly did you test the composition of this culture, to confirm the presence because as I posted they do not really pigment well in higher O2 levels.

PnSB bloom under anaerobic conditions.

As for Aerobic bacteria creating acid as the way that they break down organics, have you ever heard of the Nitrogen cycle????

Yes I have. And I know it is not all there is to consider, e.g., there are acids (enzymes) from aerobic phospho-composting and AM fungi release organic acid to mineralize P sources to give to the plant. Posphate Solublizing Microorganisms (PSM) also excrete acid exudates to mineralize P.


"Soil Microbial Nitrogen Cycling for Organic Farms"
Louise Jackson, University of California-Davis
http://www.extension.org/article/18657

"ACTIVITY OF MINERALIZING ENZYMES DURING: COMPOSTING OF URBAN SOLID WASTE"
Raghavendra Rao, B. Radhakrishna, D. and Shantha, S.L
http://ejeafche.uvigo.es/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&gid=531

As I said anaerobic microbes release alcohol and acids as they are fermentor, fermentation requires a low PH, which most aerobic microbes can not withstand because they do not create acids, they use O2 and enzymes to break down organic matter.

And I didn't disagree, except that some aerobic microbes also have exudates in the from of acids. But you seem to be inferring by adding AEM to media it's going to war between anaerobes and aerobes, and that isn't the case, a major limiting factor is media moisture content flux.

I must ask: Did you take Dr. Ingham's classes? You do sound very much like a student of her's. Please remember, she is biased toward aerobic microbes for the sake of her business. I explained to her what I am trying to explain to you about 6 months ago. It ended with her telling me to "learn how to read". I seem to be getting the same response from you.

Either way you should do a bit more reading yourself. Coco Coir has an exceptional air filled pourosity 10%, where do you get this stuff from.

From NCSU porometer data, like I wrote a few times.

Try more like 30-40%, with 60-70% water-filled space.

No, not even close. I would like to see media with that, even the media I have been working on wont' have AP that high, few media will. Please, read what I already wrote before you make up numbers.

Please post the specific link that shows these 10% results because what you posted did not lead me to any infromation besides a list, please be kind enought to direct me to this study showing it to contain 10% air-filled space. And this is just pure coco, but I amend my coco with about 30% perlite and some other organic materials, as I grow 100% organic.

I already did. But to hold your hand I will upload relevant papers. You need to read them yourself.

It is a proven fact that casting include all of which I MENTIONED EARLIER, aerobic beneficial bacteria, myco fungi, beneficial protozae and beneficial nemotodes,

No it is not, show me vermicast which has active AM fungi, please...

all of these things live directly in the root zone and create symbiotic relationships directly with the plants. The most obvious would be the several types of fungi that form the mycorrhizae.

Well AM fungi are not active in vermicast and I highly doubt there will be any spores there either. Unless you add soil and root balls to our vermiculture bins. There is only one type of fungi which form mycorrhizal relationship, and this is AM fungi.

Can you show me what you have actually grown using EM as your choosen soil conditioner.

No one here has claimed to use solely AEM, most use ACT and AEM.

Either way though I am done with this thread, I see no real cites for anything

Are you serious? I have provided many white papers and links to academia, yet you have ignored all of them.

and honestly stating that coco coir is like growing in stagnant water makes me kinda think you haven't never grown in this medium.

The CC of 100% coir is 75-80%. The CC of coir based mix is 70-75%. These are data from assays of over 2,000 different soilless mixes and samples. You are not correct. You complain I offer no references, yet I have provided all of them, ie., NCSU link, did you miss that?

Like if roots did not require O2 then there would be no need for an airstone in DWC or a draining cycle in ebb and flow, we wouldn't need to let our medium dry out to prevent anaerobic conditions.

Who claimed roots don't need O2, not me. I simply compared 10% AP of coir at CC to stagnant water; and that's valid comparison: both are anaerobic.

Please read my posts on this page for more info on soilless media and links to good sources of academic lit:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=86175&page=45


Have a nice day

P.S. Here is a screen shot of some results from the porometer, also, click the link for soilless media in my sig see more info about pore sizes, etc:

 

[Trichgnomes]

I must ask? Did you take Dr. Ingham's classes? You do sound very much like a student of her's. Please remember, she is biased toward aerobic microbes for the sake of her business. Myself and Steve Diver explained to her what I am trying to explain to you about 6 months ago. It ended with her telling me to "learn how to read". I seem to be getting the same response from you.

Yeah, I felt kind of duped when I ordered her CDs (not as duped as if I had taken her classes, thanks CT Guy!) when she starts going on about "The anaerobes are the bad guys! We don't wanna any anaerobes, blah blah blah." I totally respect what she has done for the field, and in many ways she has opened the doors for others, but c'mon that is straight up anthropomorphism. Good guys and bad guys? How bout some yin and yang? Maintaining a balance?
I had a conversation with someone about EM recently and he tried to pull the same shit, "but that is anaerobic!" Well wouldn't you know, he was pushing a bunch of magical "enzymes" and proprietary biological innoculants!

 

[umbra]

Hello I'm relatively new to this site. I was just having this same conversation with someone else at another site. All I can say is wow. I've been using EM to make bokashi and AEM and have experimented with all kinds of enhancements and extensions. And they all thought I was crazy...damn. Mind if I join the consortium?

 

[Trichgnomes]

Mind if I join the consortium?

Not at all! It's good to be hear that you have not been stricken by Anaerobephobia!

 

[mad librettist]

As I understood it Dr. Ingham was talking about anaerobes taking over, not being present. I first read most of what I said here off her site. In writing at least, she never claims anaerobes are the bad guys, just that you don't want to create conditions such that they occupy the space you want for aerobes. If you're a farmer, she tells you to avoid them because it will keep you disciplined. She's talking to a consumer, not a theorist.

On her site, She doesn't say you can't have ciliates and flagellates in the sample, just that you want to see more of the ones that prefer aerobes, as a sign that there are not too many aerobes relative to available air.

Mind if I join the consortium?

welcome! look out though, apparently we are like a cult.

 

[secondtry]

Hey Mad.L,

Trust me she is an anaerobe hater, on the older mailing-list messages she used to go off about anaerobes and how if they are present you in for trouble, etc, etc, the sky is falling type of writing. And she is especially unfriendly to EM and AEM for horticultural use along with ACT (or as she likes to call it AACT).

 

[secondtry]

Hello umbra,

welcome.

 

[Trichgnomes]

mad lib, she literally used the word "bad guys." I kid you not, I have it on CD, I'll listen to it and post the context when I have time in a day or two.

 

[mad librettist]

Hey Mad.L,

Trust me she is an anaerobe hater, on the older mailing-list messages she used to go off about anaerobes and how if they are present you in for trouble, etc, etc, the sky is falling type of writing. And she is especially unfriendly to EM and AEM for horticultural use along with ACT (or as she likes to call it AACT).

nobody's perfect I guess. maybe she has to watch it on her site? Why would not anyone assume that every creature great and small has its place and purpose? Let's ingest what she says, keep the useful part for sustenance and poop out the waste.

I don't want anaerobes to take over and pickle my soil. I just want them to do their useful job. So I add it carefully, between grows and not too strong. btw, if you haven't tried bokashi in a worm bin, you haven't lived.

anyway I loves me some EM. Just had a half a shot.

 

[secondtry]

Hey Mad.L,

I think she does it because she in the business of aerobic microbes. Simple as that, I think it's intentional because I showed her yet she would not relent, and finished with a adult way of saying goodbye, telling me to "learn how to read", that from Dr. Ingham, nice eh?

 

[mad librettist]

everyone's a person 2nd try. you and i might do the same. it's sad, but whatever we take the good and can leave the rest.

 

[scotianmeds]

OK I'll admit, I am an asshole, I did not read the entire post but if we are talking about using EM between harvests, I totally agree, again I am an asshole, I really didn't want to argue over everything I was under the impression that this was being used kind of like a castings tea

nobody's perfect I guess. maybe she has to watch it on her site? Why would not anyone assume that every creature great and small has its place and purpose? Let's ingest what she says, keep the useful part for sustenance and poop out the waste.

I don't want anaerobes to take over and pickle my soil. I just want them to do their useful job. So I add it carefully, between grows and not too strong. btw, if you haven't tried bokashi in a worm bin, you haven't lived.

anyway I loves me some EM. Just had a half a shot.

 

[secondtry]

Hey,

No worries. But your perceptions are correct, I (and many here) use AEM along with ACT on growing plants, some people don't tho, some people use it for remediation between grows.

 

[mad librettist]

don't sweat it, but look: some people do use it during growth. I got a big big veggie garden away from my house. over 70ftx70ft. No electricity, but we got water. I use a hose end sprayer to apply EM at 1:1000 about once a month. more frequently early on. It seemed to me that even though last season was wet and cool, we did not get much mildew. Our raspberries were nice and sweet.

 

[umbra]

Hello umbra,

welcome.

Thanks. Your avatar is a microorganism, I love it. Thats pretty cool. I use my AEM in grows. Been doing it about 2 years@ 6x /yr. I'm not sure what that says, but I have not had any bugs, pests, diseases, nute issues, of ph swings with any of those plants. All big, healthy, bountiful producing plants.

 

[Microbeman]

Many people in Asia use AEM straight through the growing season with fabulous results. I used it during growing until I started using it in tandem with ACT which I thought was a better system for my setup.

To be clear to the best of my knowledge, besides AM (endomycorrhizal fungi) ectomycorrhizal fungi is also classed as mycorrhizal but Trichoderma is not. Just because a fungus is symbiotic with plants does not make it mycorrhizal. Mycorrhizal fungi do not grow in ACT (unless you drop in some ectomycorrhizal spores which is not a common practice). There is fungal hyphae which grows in ACT usually most in the first 18 hours of the brew. These are for the most part fungi-imperfecti which contribute to the microbial nutrient cycle, through degradation of matter, food for bacteria (& other microbes) and help to bind soil particles and conserve moisture and nutrients. However, there is no evidence which I've seen that these fungi form any symbiosis with plants.
Sorry for going off topic.

 

[mad librettist]

microbe, how do you apply them in tandem? ratios, or whatever.

Also, could actinobacter cause a big white thing that went straight through my bokashi bran? (broken up now)