Very few protective measures are 100% effective all the time, every time. It's best to rinse and repeat...
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Dud Identification Collective Knowledge.
- Thread starter high life 45
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Very few protective measures are 100% effective all the time, every time. It's best to rinse and repeat...
SaBeS
Member
I've had experiences doing this and can say it works very well. Works on full size plants if you have a big enough bucket lol.
Also just for kicks I'll add some neem oil and stir that into a nice vortex before I dunk my plants.
I've done it with 35 degree water also for 10 mins without any negative side effects.
Also a note on apical meristem tissue culture. This is a common practice in the horticulture industry, especially when tissue cultures are taken for storing purposes, as this technique guarantees you plant is disease and insect free.
Though having experience doing this in a lab I can say, unless you have a lab this is a very tricky process to master, as even in a sterile lab with garlic cloves we only had about 60 percent success rate with most failure being due to some sort of mold growth.
BTW love this thread and all the good info.
Though I think we could all do without some people telling everybody their wrong and that only a select few know the truth.
As broad mites cause plants to be more susceptible to viruses and other problems, so eliminating either without scientific evidence would not be appropriate.
cooking your plants for 3 days at 900° got you down? has the EPA declared your grow a superfund site on account of all the toxic chemicals you've dumped on it? is the strongest smelling thing in your garden the stink stink coming of your gym socks? don't despair just yet, because i've found a cure for duds. it's called BRAWNDO and it's packed with electrolytes, the stuff that plants crave. don't give your plants water. water comes from the toilet. and have you ever seen a plant growing out of the toilet?!?!?!
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i kid. i kid. was just watching idiocracy last night, and i couldn't help myself. it actually reminds me a lot of the way random ideas have a way of going from wild conjecture to absolute truth in a matter of seconds on sites like these.
[/rant]
morning gang. apparently i slept through the contentious part of this thread. by the time i got here the cleaning crew had already come around and done their thing. it's just as well too, since this isn't the venue where i'd like to answer all the personal insults.
first off, thanks to sam skunk for weighing in. it's refreshing to have a giant like yourself opine on the problems we are dealing with down in the trenches. it also validates just how serious this damn thing is.
as it pertains to this plague of duds, i do not pretend to understand this phenomenon any better than the next person. and, absent some credible empirical data and results that can be duplicated, i would regard anyone who claims that they have a handle on it with great suspicion. not surprisingly, there are such individuals who let their own egos or personal agendas trump reason. sadly, there are others who are so eager and desperate to find a solution to this thing that they line up to buy what these charlatans are selling. it's very much akin and about as upsetting as these "faith healers" and other quacks who put themselves out there as a valid alternative to medical science so that truly desperate people with grave illnesses and nothing to lose but their savings might jump on board for what they are doing.
biological supplements, wide spectrum miticidal regimens, og biowar, calcium thiosulfate, cooking your plants to death or very nearly so, tmv immunoassays, voodoo hexes, and now, botanical oils, because they're "too complex for viruses." to these all i can say is child please. at least, after a long and storied history of being so cavalier and cocksure about this thing and laughing at those who don't jump on the latest thing you profer, at least admitting it's a worldwide phenom that nobody quite comprehends is a giant step in the direction of progress. bravo to the lot of you who have given up trying to convince the rest of us that you have it all under control and that rest of us are very stupid for not heeding your advice as we would the Word of Dog.
looking through these threads, it seems like everyone weighing in falls into one of a handful of basic types. for me, it's easy to empathize with all of them, the one mentioned above notwithstanding.
those who have never experienced this thing first hand are incredulous. i know i was. didn't believe it was a real thing. figured it was some mistake or another on the part of the growers in question. there is just no way imaginable that an otherwise healthy looking plant from a proven line could just fail to do what our plants have always done unless the gardener fucked up in a major way.
that line of reason is, of course maddening to those of us who are in the throes of a fight to the death against an invisible plague. in the midst of staring down a whole grow of plants that started off with so much promise but that, six weeks into a 60 day bloom, just aren't doing their thing, i can totally relate to the panic and frustration and rage. the overall sense of helplessness is crippling and very much akin to what the farmers of the dustbowl must have felt in those chunky steinbeck novels we had to read in high school. you can see the steps of the kubler-ross cycle of grieving in it too. denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance...it's all there, writ large:
1. no way could this happen to an accomplished grower like myself. another week and the trichs will arrive.
2. that cocksucker who did this to me did it willfully, and he is going to die when i get my hands around his throat. (i know this one too well. and OHHHH the irony of it).
3. well maybe if i treat my veg stock with this chemical or that supplement, this will not happen again. i mean, they look healthy enough. and these odorless, frostless flowers—they should still make pretty good errl, right?
and so on.
does it seem to fit? anyone? idfk maybe i'm the crazy one.
then, there are those of us who have dealt with this scourge first hand and prevailed. if not in the sense of gaining an academic understanding, maybe we have gotten a practical one at least. after having lost a grow (and probably nearly your ass) to this thing, just coming out the other side and living to see your flowers do the amazing things they do once again is no small victory. i get both the smug self-satisfaction as well as the eagerness to preach the gospel of whatever it was we imagined we did to get ourselves rid of this curse. the fact remains though, that absent a real understanding of what causes dudding and some good peer review, whatever it was that we did probably amounts to little more than dumb luck and a good scrubbing.
anyhow, i did deal with a room full of full blown duds, about two years back. it was a painful and costly lesson. i do not claim to know with any certainty what the causative agent was, but i have heard some plausible explanations. without offering any further speculation on the topic, i will say that broad mite damage, systemic fungal blight, ad a latent and as of yet unidentified issue with the progeny of the sour dub are the ones that make most sense to me.
since that time, and after instituting a set of best practices that i follow like dogma, i have not experienced anything in my own garden that even closely resembles what i dealt with then. that said, i have read this thread, and i have also been contacted by exactly three individuals who have expressed concerns about the cuts they received at the cup. those concerns have all been addressed. the very first thing that was done was to summarily cull any stock that had even an infinitesimal chance of being suspect and to replace it with fresh gear directly from the breeder. anyone else who has a question or concern is welcome to contact OUTSIDE OF OPEN FORUM. your civility is appreciated but hardly compulsory. in any case, every reasonable effort will be made to sort out the situation to your full satisfaction. my word is bond. if, after exhausting that remedy, you are still pissed off, feel free to flame me openly. i am confident it will be a nonissue though.
it saddens and terrifies me to see dud related issues cropping up so very close to my own house again, especially so soon after switching gears and trying on a new role in this business. please believe that i take this thing very seriously and am committed to doing whatever i may to be of assistance to those dealing with this monster of a problem, regardless of where the plants in question came from or how they became affected. many of those issues are not appropriate ones for public threads though, and they certainly don't belong in this one, which deals with the general phenomenon—one that has been known (if not understood) for longer than the gg strain has existed.
with regard to dud identification, the very best criteria for early detection are deceptively simple and dependable. they cwere ennumerated for me by JW himself. i was dumbfounded when he laid them out and i realized just how spot on they are.
1. slow growth and general lack of vigor.
2. miniature sized new foliage.
3. abnormally tight internode spacing.
4. brittle stems that snap like tinder rather than bend like twine.
whoa. mind = blown. thanks joesy.
as for management strategies in general, the only surefire one i know of is to exercise good quarantine practices, and not to commit a full run's worth of time, labor, rent, materials, and utilities to anything you do not personally know to be viable.
in the unlikely event that problems arise even after these best practices have been deployed, protocol then would be to cull the stock in question, to do so before it is liable to contaminate anything else (in case the root agent is a communicable one) and to scrub like hell. that's what i did with the adub and the dubtech. it seems to have worked too. i realize what a hard call it is to make, but a plant that has not expressed the genetic traits that it ought to, well past the time when any other explanation will suffice, will almost certainly not bounce back by miracle.
while i still need to source a cut of positively dudded stock (as well as a safe place to play with such a dangerous toy) before i can say anything with any kind of certainty, my early tinkering with the old (suspect) line of glue, as well as what i've seen and heard from other growers suggests that reversing and selfing a strain and TC propagation are both lines of inquiry that show promise with regard to neutralizing the dud threat. this is only a mouthful of weak conjecture from my own unqualified mouth and nowhere else though. unfortunately, there is no suitable substitute for good independent inquiry and stringent peer review. things may be looking up, but there is still a long hard road to hoe. and until such time as prohibition ends and the academy is allowed to play and dialogue freely with Our Plant, we will remain very much dependent on each other to provide the best suggestions and solutions available. may we at least manage to be as civil and fair minded about it as we may.
sorry though i am i don't have the magic bullet for this thing, i do hope this clears up some of the confusion. if any of you are still inclined to sling shit or point fingers or otherwise dangle troll bait, please direct your rage and ire to my private inbox or, at the very least, to my personal thread. it is no understatement when i say this topic is paramount to all of us who make a living or a hobby of cultivating drug grade cannabis. to call it life-and-death would not be very much of a stretch. in any case, it is far too important to let it become sullied with personal drama and pettiness. with that in mind, i will try my damndest to hold my temper and have no part in that noise.
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i kid. i kid. was just watching idiocracy last night, and i couldn't help myself. it actually reminds me a lot of the way random ideas have a way of going from wild conjecture to absolute truth in a matter of seconds on sites like these.
[/rant]
morning gang. apparently i slept through the contentious part of this thread. by the time i got here the cleaning crew had already come around and done their thing. it's just as well too, since this isn't the venue where i'd like to answer all the personal insults.
first off, thanks to sam skunk for weighing in. it's refreshing to have a giant like yourself opine on the problems we are dealing with down in the trenches. it also validates just how serious this damn thing is.
as it pertains to this plague of duds, i do not pretend to understand this phenomenon any better than the next person. and, absent some credible empirical data and results that can be duplicated, i would regard anyone who claims that they have a handle on it with great suspicion. not surprisingly, there are such individuals who let their own egos or personal agendas trump reason. sadly, there are others who are so eager and desperate to find a solution to this thing that they line up to buy what these charlatans are selling. it's very much akin and about as upsetting as these "faith healers" and other quacks who put themselves out there as a valid alternative to medical science so that truly desperate people with grave illnesses and nothing to lose but their savings might jump on board for what they are doing.
biological supplements, wide spectrum miticidal regimens, og biowar, calcium thiosulfate, cooking your plants to death or very nearly so, tmv immunoassays, voodoo hexes, and now, botanical oils, because they're "too complex for viruses." to these all i can say is child please. at least, after a long and storied history of being so cavalier and cocksure about this thing and laughing at those who don't jump on the latest thing you profer, at least admitting it's a worldwide phenom that nobody quite comprehends is a giant step in the direction of progress. bravo to the lot of you who have given up trying to convince the rest of us that you have it all under control and that rest of us are very stupid for not heeding your advice as we would the Word of Dog.
looking through these threads, it seems like everyone weighing in falls into one of a handful of basic types. for me, it's easy to empathize with all of them, the one mentioned above notwithstanding.
those who have never experienced this thing first hand are incredulous. i know i was. didn't believe it was a real thing. figured it was some mistake or another on the part of the growers in question. there is just no way imaginable that an otherwise healthy looking plant from a proven line could just fail to do what our plants have always done unless the gardener fucked up in a major way.
that line of reason is, of course maddening to those of us who are in the throes of a fight to the death against an invisible plague. in the midst of staring down a whole grow of plants that started off with so much promise but that, six weeks into a 60 day bloom, just aren't doing their thing, i can totally relate to the panic and frustration and rage. the overall sense of helplessness is crippling and very much akin to what the farmers of the dustbowl must have felt in those chunky steinbeck novels we had to read in high school. you can see the steps of the kubler-ross cycle of grieving in it too. denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance...it's all there, writ large:
1. no way could this happen to an accomplished grower like myself. another week and the trichs will arrive.
2. that cocksucker who did this to me did it willfully, and he is going to die when i get my hands around his throat. (i know this one too well. and OHHHH the irony of it).
3. well maybe if i treat my veg stock with this chemical or that supplement, this will not happen again. i mean, they look healthy enough. and these odorless, frostless flowers—they should still make pretty good errl, right?
and so on.
does it seem to fit? anyone? idfk maybe i'm the crazy one.
then, there are those of us who have dealt with this scourge first hand and prevailed. if not in the sense of gaining an academic understanding, maybe we have gotten a practical one at least. after having lost a grow (and probably nearly your ass) to this thing, just coming out the other side and living to see your flowers do the amazing things they do once again is no small victory. i get both the smug self-satisfaction as well as the eagerness to preach the gospel of whatever it was we imagined we did to get ourselves rid of this curse. the fact remains though, that absent a real understanding of what causes dudding and some good peer review, whatever it was that we did probably amounts to little more than dumb luck and a good scrubbing.
anyhow, i did deal with a room full of full blown duds, about two years back. it was a painful and costly lesson. i do not claim to know with any certainty what the causative agent was, but i have heard some plausible explanations. without offering any further speculation on the topic, i will say that broad mite damage, systemic fungal blight, ad a latent and as of yet unidentified issue with the progeny of the sour dub are the ones that make most sense to me.
since that time, and after instituting a set of best practices that i follow like dogma, i have not experienced anything in my own garden that even closely resembles what i dealt with then. that said, i have read this thread, and i have also been contacted by exactly three individuals who have expressed concerns about the cuts they received at the cup. those concerns have all been addressed. the very first thing that was done was to summarily cull any stock that had even an infinitesimal chance of being suspect and to replace it with fresh gear directly from the breeder. anyone else who has a question or concern is welcome to contact OUTSIDE OF OPEN FORUM. your civility is appreciated but hardly compulsory. in any case, every reasonable effort will be made to sort out the situation to your full satisfaction. my word is bond. if, after exhausting that remedy, you are still pissed off, feel free to flame me openly. i am confident it will be a nonissue though.
it saddens and terrifies me to see dud related issues cropping up so very close to my own house again, especially so soon after switching gears and trying on a new role in this business. please believe that i take this thing very seriously and am committed to doing whatever i may to be of assistance to those dealing with this monster of a problem, regardless of where the plants in question came from or how they became affected. many of those issues are not appropriate ones for public threads though, and they certainly don't belong in this one, which deals with the general phenomenon—one that has been known (if not understood) for longer than the gg strain has existed.
with regard to dud identification, the very best criteria for early detection are deceptively simple and dependable. they cwere ennumerated for me by JW himself. i was dumbfounded when he laid them out and i realized just how spot on they are.
1. slow growth and general lack of vigor.
2. miniature sized new foliage.
3. abnormally tight internode spacing.
4. brittle stems that snap like tinder rather than bend like twine.
whoa. mind = blown. thanks joesy.
as for management strategies in general, the only surefire one i know of is to exercise good quarantine practices, and not to commit a full run's worth of time, labor, rent, materials, and utilities to anything you do not personally know to be viable.
in the unlikely event that problems arise even after these best practices have been deployed, protocol then would be to cull the stock in question, to do so before it is liable to contaminate anything else (in case the root agent is a communicable one) and to scrub like hell. that's what i did with the adub and the dubtech. it seems to have worked too. i realize what a hard call it is to make, but a plant that has not expressed the genetic traits that it ought to, well past the time when any other explanation will suffice, will almost certainly not bounce back by miracle.
while i still need to source a cut of positively dudded stock (as well as a safe place to play with such a dangerous toy) before i can say anything with any kind of certainty, my early tinkering with the old (suspect) line of glue, as well as what i've seen and heard from other growers suggests that reversing and selfing a strain and TC propagation are both lines of inquiry that show promise with regard to neutralizing the dud threat. this is only a mouthful of weak conjecture from my own unqualified mouth and nowhere else though. unfortunately, there is no suitable substitute for good independent inquiry and stringent peer review. things may be looking up, but there is still a long hard road to hoe. and until such time as prohibition ends and the academy is allowed to play and dialogue freely with Our Plant, we will remain very much dependent on each other to provide the best suggestions and solutions available. may we at least manage to be as civil and fair minded about it as we may.
sorry though i am i don't have the magic bullet for this thing, i do hope this clears up some of the confusion. if any of you are still inclined to sling shit or point fingers or otherwise dangle troll bait, please direct your rage and ire to my private inbox or, at the very least, to my personal thread. it is no understatement when i say this topic is paramount to all of us who make a living or a hobby of cultivating drug grade cannabis. to call it life-and-death would not be very much of a stretch. in any case, it is far too important to let it become sullied with personal drama and pettiness. with that in mind, i will try my damndest to hold my temper and have no part in that noise.
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i know of at least one lab that will screen for viruss in oregon in cannabis.
i understand SC labs does too, but theybcharge very dearly for the service i'm told.
might be worth it without an adequate alternative. im sure theyre banking on that but if theyll do it....... i got five on it. im not sure what the lab up here charges and ive not dealt with them. a buddy knows them though. but again i aint got no access to a confirmed dud from anyone i trust to know how to discern from other plant pathology to go through the trouble with. im working on it and want to do a microtip tissue culture project with one too but again still working on it. no such donations have emerged. id love to see what steep hill is offering or if its just some snake oil tmv test. im not dissing them im just unsure as to their credentials in virus screening in plants. if they check out and can adequately perform the tests necessary id be into helping with the resources necessary if others are too. as far as overcharging for the service, id think anyone in this industry would be guilty of the same and why shouldnt they. its not like pounds cost 24 to produce, just sayin. they are providing a service where no one else will on a plant that requires a legal team to work with. theres a lot of people guilty of overcharging for things related to this plant.haha
Your word is bond lmfao.....
Hey SL glad you could stop by.
Just to make things clear, in no way was I trying to turn this into a bashing thread of any sort. I stated it clearly in the thread I started in the glue society. Also you'll notice my second post has the same descriptors quoted above.
I am not blaming anyone for this issue, as also stated in my first post, I am just trying to stop the spread of ganja herpes. Thats why I came and put my personal garden up for everyone to see, poke at, speculate and make jokes, in the hopes of some progress to be made for the community as a whole.
Some people are worked up, and I would be lying if I said this wasnt costing me, but I havent the time to waste energy being upset over the net.
you say; that you had dud's,
that like the rest of us you dont understand what truly causes them,
that you are now free of dud's.
Were you able to stop the dud's?
Or did you get rid of all of your stock?
What are your best practices that you follow like dogma?
I hope everyone reads this a few times....
Thanks again for the thread high life 45 - lots of information here
there are some skeptics and bless their hearts i wish it was a simple as they are making it out to be... but i still do not wish they experience dudds. this shit is real, whatever it is.
i hear what tony green is saying about that plant looking healthy. it LOOKS healthy. but it aint. or, wasn't. If you get dudds, your eyes will become more "sensitive" to shit like mine. its not a good thing to "grow in fear" hahaha. maybe I'm a little jumpy now...
call it PDS - POST DUDD SYNDROME
you get dudds you get pds....
Mahalo Nui for the knowledge everyone.
I definitely got PDS and wouldn't wish it on anyone, friend or otherwise.
I have tried hot water dips on cannabis, and it did not work for me. Plants were ruined. Hot air? Different story. Hot water dips are commonly used on peppers and other commercial greenhouse crops. Some peeps are dipping roots in hot water to kill root aphids. Seems the question here is whether "dudding" is caused by something other than BM toxins, and it seems the only way to determine that is to send some "dudded" material in for testing. In my case, the only duds I have had were from BMs/Cyclamens, and the only way to fix it is by eliminating the pests, and using aspirin to knock back the toxins. If the cause of this "new" type of "dudding" is a virus or other pathogen, it's going to take a lab to diagnose. Whatever it is, as usual, all the clone trading/buying will spread it. Makes a person want to buy more seeds......
Pre 14 HTcup GG4 cuts are the new deal...lol
to those already infected by DUD's: i pity you. stay subscribed!
to those not yet infected by DUD's: don't bring cuts into your grow. the odds of disease are reduced dramatically by following this simple principle. and yet, it seems to elude so many growers. it is hard for me to understand. don't they teach this principle in high school sex ed?
PS
would it be too much to ask sunset what measures he took to rid himself of HIS DUD's?
to those not yet infected by DUD's: don't bring cuts into your grow. the odds of disease are reduced dramatically by following this simple principle. and yet, it seems to elude so many growers. it is hard for me to understand. don't they teach this principle in high school sex ed?
PS
would it be too much to ask sunset what measures he took to rid himself of HIS DUD's?
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or try a putting into tissue culture or a small quarantined test veg grow with chems, lots and lots of chems, and then check out with min 100x scope.thats what i do. nothing comes into my room til it GROWS SHOWS AND GLOWS. after it proves itself throw the root ball away and clone for a mom.fuck having bugs. if you must have a new cut,its the only way. everything else is russian roulette. always take cuts from others unrooted. if you bring someone elses cut into your room and disaster strikes you have noone to blame but yourself. you are the only person who can bring an untested untreated clone into your room. if you follow these steps noone can give you bugs.there are some fucking awesome seeds out there. there are some really high tech chems and really detailed info about how to safely use them on plants that wont be consumed directly. this can be prevented. tiny inexpensive sample bottles of super fancy state of the art pesticides fungicides etc can be found on amazon and ebay.if you eschew these practices hit up high end polyhybrid breeders offering incredibly well proven seedlines and pick a winner.
Sounds good except that if you grow plants from only seeds they can still be infected with viruses transmitted from the seeds, from the tools used, from people, from soils, from insects that get into a grow no matter how well you try and prevent them, unless you shower and have a clean room before entering your grow, as well as hepa filters and positive air pressure to exclude all insects.
-SamS
do you have links to the vrus through seed info? its true you are right nothing is 100% safe in this world but......99 % of issues like this come from passing cuts.
so yes sam technically you are correct however the difference being that, if you bring in cuts you most likely will encounter these issues, if you dont you most likely wont. not either is 100 %
your attitude is a testament to the strength of your character. thanks for starting this thread.
what little i know is already up there in my post.
i did get dud adub and dubtech clones from a vendor who used to frequent these boards and who well may be lying in wait here still. without knowing that from the handful he gave me, i propped them out for several generations before flowering them, so i am very skeptical of the "cloning away from" argument that this practice will fix things. though i was unaware of it at the time as i was of the syndrome, the cuts also carried some tarsonemid class mite or another—broad, cyclamen, hemp russet.
the mites were persistent but easy enough to rid myself of, i was never able to bring the plants back, try though i did. if this were the whole of my story, i would be quick to cast my lot with them that blame the broad mites and to chalk the loss of the plants vigor, terps, and trichs to residual damage from the mites. however, in the time that i was tryong to clone away from dud, after i am 100 the mites had been eradicated, i watched the syndrome spread to other plants. the second i observed and logged this, i culled the lot of them. if you are seeing this in your plants, get them out of your room asap if you want to keep the other strains you've got.
the best practices are nothing magical. quarantine, cull, and scrub.
never introduce anything to your room that you have not sequestered in a safe space and observed for a period of at least two weeks.
promptly remove and destroy any plants you find to be affected.
be immaculate. i've said it before and stand by it unequivocally. OCD is actually a desirable trait in a grower.
that's all i've got. i'm here to learn as much as the next guy.
- Status
