BobChronic6505
Active member
So would it be correct to say the f2 will still be the 25/50/25 split (roughly) of genes, just different combinations of all those genes?
Breeding for beginners
- Thread starter Thread starter glasspackedbowl
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depends on what you mean exactly with split of genes?
for every gene that is polymorphic(=different between parents) there will be the 25/50/25 split between alleles from mom and dad (that is however assuming mom and dad are both homozygous/stable for that gene, otherwise you get a different ratio than 25/50/25).
so if you extrapolate those chances for each individual gene towards chances in a single plant but with all genes together, you could say that each individual you pull from the f2, and only counting those polymorphic genes, it would have 25% homozygous from mom, 25% homozygous from dad, and 50% heterozygous from both. i.e. 50/50 genes from dad and from mom.
but that's just a very rough estimation based on an ideal case. in reality you could sometimes have individuals who for example have 60% in common with mom and only 40% dad, or the other way around. but without marker assisted selection that's hard to tell.
the practical reality is that with weedcrosses the parents are rarely stable, let alone that they're completely homozygous lines, so then all those simple ratios fall apart anyway.
and then you have quantitative traits as already mentioned, and also more options than just recessive or dominant.
so imo you should only practally use those mendellian ratios when you know you're dealing with a specific trait caused by 1 gene.
duckfoot leaves for example, when I make a cross between a webbed leaf plant and a normal leaf plant, then make an f2, I can estimate that I need to grow out at least 8 seeds to be able to make a webbed f3 (on average, 1 in 4 will be webbed. so to have a chance on getting both a male and female, 2*4=8 plants).
not many clear traits that inherit in such a simple way though.
BobChronic6505
Active member
The more I think I have an understanding, the more I see I dont understand anything. Lol thanks again
It’s also useful to flip this approach. Look for traits that show up in (roughly) Mendelian ratios in a population, then make test crosses to prove to yourself that you have uncovered the underlying genetics.
Say about a quarter of plants from a pack have pink stigmas. That would suggest a single recessive allele determined color, only expressing when homozygous. If you selfed any plant with pink stigmas, you would get 100% pink plants. Then you’d understand the genetics completely.
Key ratios for control by recessive alleles are 1/4, 1/16, 1/64, etc., for one, two, three, etc. alleles acting together to produce the trait. Practically, multi-locus traits will be much harder to pin down.
Many other ratios are worth noting. You might instead see, for example, about 1/4 magenta, 1/2 pink, and 1/4 white stigmas. That would suggest two loci were involved, or control by a single locus with a distinct (pink) heterozygous phenotype. Test crosses could again tell you exactly what was happening.
Lots of other patterns are noteworthy, but spotting recessives in action is especially powerful because they are so easy to fix.
Etley
New member
Out of curiosity and desire to see a cross happen. I recently used a male cherry cultivar to pollinate a lemon and a bubble female I’ve had for a long while now. It’s a bottleneck poly hybrid so my expectations are low.
Im going into week 5 of seed production and just now the seeds are starting to get darker in color. I plan letting them mature till I don’t see anymore changes in color occur. Then squeeze them see if they are hard.
At this point Im going dry the seed filled flowers in a 55% environment. Remove the seeds and place them in a dry cool environment to dry a little longer before jarring them with a silica pack for storage.
Am I approaching this correctly? I’m no aspiring breeder simply got an expensive pack of seeds the gave me 7 males out of 10 seeds. So taking it as an opportunity to learn something new.
Im going into week 5 of seed production and just now the seeds are starting to get darker in color. I plan letting them mature till I don’t see anymore changes in color occur. Then squeeze them see if they are hard.
At this point Im going dry the seed filled flowers in a 55% environment. Remove the seeds and place them in a dry cool environment to dry a little longer before jarring them with a silica pack for storage.
Am I approaching this correctly? I’m no aspiring breeder simply got an expensive pack of seeds the gave me 7 males out of 10 seeds. So taking it as an opportunity to learn something new.
Hey i breed the first time, iam now in first week of flower.
I just have the females with the males at one tent..
When should i really start eliminate the other males, so i just have one in the tent?
Should be fine with the timing, right? Or is the male to early ready to pollinate the females? What should i watch out for?
I just have the females with the males at one tent..
When should i really start eliminate the other males, so i just have one in the tent?
Should be fine with the timing, right? Or is the male to early ready to pollinate the females? What should i watch out for?
A male in a room of females will produce plenty of seed!
You have at least a few weeks to pick your male. Keep in mind you can’t see the most important traits… some people would only cull obviously off-type or weak males.
If you don’t mind a little more complexity, you can collect each male’s pollen separately and make controlled pollinations. Then if one male’s progeny turn out better, you can work that line separately.
It all depends on your goals.
@zif Thank u for responding, mate!
I do have a 2x2 and a 4x4, iam now on second week of flower, 8th day!
I would take my 3 males in the 2x2 in a different room. If the headbanger starts to produce pollen, i will cut the hole plant and dry the pollen? I do have silica gel packs here already!!!
I got a feminized Gorilla Glue, but this bitch is a male -.-
Did i got lucky here or would u not use this male? Its a blown male, no herm.
Goal:
Not get any crosscontaminations.. i just wanna do a Headbanger F2 (Headbanger x Headbanger)
the rest is my SV2 Male! I found a second SV2 male what is a more Sativa so i wanna just collect the pollen, frooze it and in my next run to make my strain F4, i would Backcross 1 female with the SV2 #2 male.
So everyone is geting (expect for 1 Headbanger) SV2 #1 male.
Can i just let the SV2 #1 male in the 4x4 with all the girls now? Or should i get all males in a different room?
Not that they getting to early pollinate... my thought was at day 27 (around 27).
I do have a 2x2 and a 4x4, iam now on second week of flower, 8th day!
I would take my 3 males in the 2x2 in a different room. If the headbanger starts to produce pollen, i will cut the hole plant and dry the pollen? I do have silica gel packs here already!!!
I got a feminized Gorilla Glue, but this bitch is a male -.-
Did i got lucky here or would u not use this male? Its a blown male, no herm.
Goal:
Not get any crosscontaminations.. i just wanna do a Headbanger F2 (Headbanger x Headbanger)
the rest is my SV2 Male! I found a second SV2 male what is a more Sativa so i wanna just collect the pollen, frooze it and in my next run to make my strain F4, i would Backcross 1 female with the SV2 #2 male.
So everyone is geting (expect for 1 Headbanger) SV2 #1 male.
Can i just let the SV2 #1 male in the 4x4 with all the girls now? Or should i get all males in a different room?
Not that they getting to early pollinate... my thought was at day 27 (around 27).
Cool - you're in good shape. You can move the males out whenever you like, but watch them closely as they start really putting on the flowers because they can start shedding pollen from the first flower that matures. And even one flower will crank out a surprising amount of pollen.
Cutting the plant once it's producing and collecting the pollen works great. You can dry it for a few days, use some to pollinate your girls, and save the rest tightly sealed in an air tight/moisture proof container with a dessicant in a freezer.
Remember that pollen is made to carry on the breeze. If you don't want cross contamination, be careful not to let pollen drift into your 4x4. You can also mist pollinated plants with water before putting them back into the tent. Giving them a night or so out of the tent is plenty to allow the pollen to do its job before using the mist to deactivate the rest.
Hey mate!
Super stoked that u responding, thank u mate!
Its day 9 now, i see on my SV2 #1 male now several balls already (where the calyx are on females).
I did stress test the shit out of these boys and girls, just 1 hermed, rest is super fire.
I will write what my goal down:
3 Males
2 Strains.
2x SV2 #1 and #2 males.
1x HB #1 male
So, now on day 9 i should get all the 3 males and put them in the 2x2, right?
If they start open i would instantly kill 2 males and dry there pollen.. with a dehumidifier. I do have vessels and Silica gel packs here.
12-18 hours drying or what would u prefer?
Then i put them into a container and put 2-3 silica gel packs in for 24 hours on room temperature?
Put them into the vessels after that and in the fridge? Half of the pollen i would freeze in for a potential backcross next run (just to make a clone out of the best lady next generation and backcross?)
I would everytime do a BX just to see the offspring, is that smart or not so?
Then i will take the SV#1 male and put them in the 4x4 to pollinate EVERY single one, grab some fresh pollen from the SV#1 male and just hand pollinate that ill get EVERY stigma that is out there.
I would let the girls with the SV#1 male in the 4x4 anyway.. but i scared that it would be a big fuck up because its producing pollen to early and pollinate my girls on flowering day 21.. so less seeds. U know what i mean?
I would put a shopping bag onto the HB #1 female and just spray it after 24 hours down with water and put it back in the 4x4? After pollination of course.
Dont be to harsh with me please, first timer here.. Thank you so much for helping me out, i do appreciate that a lot!
Take it easy on yourself, too. Remember, the plants want to make seeds.
If you’re going to fully seed the females… maybe just keep the males alive and separate until you think they’re ready. Or, keep it simple, and leave the males in with them.
Killing males, collecting pollen, doing hand pollination… it’s great. But it’s only worth doing if you need something from the process. Letting a few males stand in the room with the females will make *lots* of seed, and you’d be able to collect more pollen for future use, too.
I mean, I just grafted together eight plants from a pack. I’m hoping they’re a mix of male and female, because I’m planning to flower the one plant (so all eight seedlings at once) just for seed. And I’m sure that it’ll make enough seed, and be a fun, easy way to do the OP. Sometimes keeping it fun and easy is underrated!
Thanks mate! @zif
Je, i will take it easy
I was just scared, if u would let the male in the female room (1 male and 8 females) he will be dropping his pollen to early.. so that means less seeds.. if they get say day 21 of flower pollinated..
I want them on day 28-32. So that should be a lot of more seeds.
I hope ur project will go well mate, good luck
Je, i will take it easy
I was just scared, if u would let the male in the female room (1 male and 8 females) he will be dropping his pollen to early.. so that means less seeds.. if they get say day 21 of flower pollinated..
I want them on day 28-32. So that should be a lot of more seeds.
I hope ur project will go well mate, good luck
Likewise! You’ve got this, man.Thanks mate! @zif
Je, i will take it easy
I was just scared, if u would let the male in the female room (1 male and 8 females) he will be dropping his pollen to early.. so that means less seeds.. if they get say day 21 of flower pollinated..
I want them on day 28-32. So that should be a lot of more seeds.
I hope ur project will go well mate, good luck
Rodehazrd
Well-known member
We’ll it says breeding for beginners so here’s a question from the shallow end.
Why do some fem seeds come out almost homogeneous like the headband I get from cali connection and some are all different like Ace KA5H. I’ve grown the headband maybe 10 seasons always basically the same of the three times I’ve grown KA5H none looked exactly alike. Are the rules different when it’s haze?
Why do some fem seeds come out almost homogeneous like the headband I get from cali connection and some are all different like Ace KA5H. I’ve grown the headband maybe 10 seasons always basically the same of the three times I’ve grown KA5H none looked exactly alike. Are the rules different when it’s haze?
Genpool.
F-Generation.
If u breed 2 things togheter, that have such a big lineage, a list that u can scroll almost, and u use them to create another polyhybrid, you have so much in the genpool that almost every plant will express herself completly different. A lot of variation.
In the F2 Generation you will have the most of variation..
An S1 (Selfed 1) Generation also is almost like an F2, because so often we get plants that are way different than the original clone we used to S1 it.
Its a bit strange, because we pollinated the plant with her self, so you would think then we should just get plants that looks like the plant we used for that, right? But its often not like that, in my opinion its like you would do an F2-Generation.
If u breed X with Y and create Z and then u search 2 good females (u spoke about creating feminized seeds) then u will do Z+Z = Z2
Z2 x Z2 = Z3
Each Z-Generation (F-generation) will be more and more homogeneous.
I did an F3 (Z3 would be my example but the correct name is F3) is already a lot homogeneous, but still has variation. So i will work on the F4 and then BX it to the mother to further stabilize it.
If we lose so much vigor or wanna stabilize a plant further we can work with BX (backcross).
Because i wanna go with linebreeding (F2,F3,F4,F5,F6) i look for the trait "Vigor". Each generation we lose some of that, so this is the reason.
A lot of guys told me nah, u will miss a lot of good plants, but its so easy to observe that trait and popp like 50 beans and search for that in the first 2 weeks u know? This is the first thing i pay attention, then the other things i search for come into the picture.
So everyone has his/her own style its like art in my opinion. You have, to have a goal in mind when you do those things.. Otherwise its just chucking.
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moose/MI
Well-known member
I'm only 4 days in on hunting 130 F2's I made last season.
I've marked the 10 that haven't popped right up with a toothpick so they can be given first consideration when I start culling.
Interestingly, these 9 in this cell have shown the earliest/most sass of the bunch.
They are from the same father - mother pairing.
It's just the mom was a clone that I made these 9 seeds with on a lark.
Where I made something like 450 of the same with the og mother. Same season outdoors last year.
Is there some extra vigor coming from seeding the clone?
Is this an established thing that I just haven't heard about?
Mountain Gold F2's
I've marked the 10 that haven't popped right up with a toothpick so they can be given first consideration when I start culling.
Interestingly, these 9 in this cell have shown the earliest/most sass of the bunch.
They are from the same father - mother pairing.
It's just the mom was a clone that I made these 9 seeds with on a lark.
Where I made something like 450 of the same with the og mother. Same season outdoors last year.
Is there some extra vigor coming from seeding the clone?
Is this an established thing that I just haven't heard about?
Mountain Gold F2's
Rodehazrd
Well-known member
Thanks so to get that homogeneous swerve must be on f4 or so? They are not vigorous like say Tony Greens RIL it’s back crossed to a 7 or 8 It’s the most vigorous strain I’ve grown.
