True enough about the lab results being the best way to tell. I've got a scope but haven't actually identified nematodes or broad mites. But according to what I've read on the UC Davis website 111 degrees for 30 minutes kills about eight to ten different nematodes and broad mites. Seems simple and non lethal to me just to be sure I don't have either. Now in all honesty I've torched a bunch of cuttings trying to maintain that 111 degree water temp. Can't walk away while doing it and it can't go above 112.5, really no higher than 112. Double boiler is best for better temp stability
-
ICMag with help from Landrace Warden and The Vault is running a NEW contest in November! You can check it here. Prizes are seeds & forum premium access. Come join in!
Dud Identification Collective Knowledge.
- Thread starter high life 45
- Start date
- Status
Wrong. Duds have three known causes: Alfalfa stem nematodes, broad mites, & cyclamen mites. All three of these have one thing in common: they inject a toxin into the plants, which is what causes the "dudding effect".
Fusarium and verticillium can destroy plants, but they are not what we are referring to here as "duds". Also, some strains are prone to "dudding". All of this has been discussed before, so I am not going into it again. The way to prevent duds is to boost the plants immune system by treating with aspirin (salicylic acid), or other immune system boosters, such as aloe or chitosan. Chitosan has been shown to prevent/control stem nematodes by several members. And there have been pictures/videos posted showing stem nematodes, contrary to what a recent poster said. It would be helpful if posters first read all the info that has been posted before in depth on these nematodes, and the many links provided. Using hot water dips on Cannabis is not going to kill broad mites @111 degrees, but it will mess up the plants. Hot air, @ 120 degrees will kill them and their eggs, without hurting the plants.
Curious if you have any experience with that, or if there is a possible source you could quote. I sound like a broken record citing UCDavis's Horticulture program but they seem as good or better than most sources. They list 110.3 as effective.www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/r280400211.html. The plants I've treated with 111 water show no signs of deformity, actually they are more vigorous
than their parent material, much like a plant that has gone through a heated air treatment.QUOTE=RetroGrow;6696752] Using hot water dips on Cannabis is not going to kill broad mites @111 degrees [/QUOTE]
than their parent material, much like a plant that has gone through a heated air treatment.QUOTE=RetroGrow;6696752] Using hot water dips on Cannabis is not going to kill broad mites @111 degrees [/QUOTE]
Retro it would be helpful if you read the thread. It would also be helpful if you stopped making stuff up about what has been discussed. It isn't broad mites. BM might have helped fusarium but it isn't BM.
I don't know how somebody as thick headed as you can even stay alive.
I don't know how somebody as thick headed as you can even stay alive.
Retro don't need hot water to get rid of stem nematodes. I said they have a chink in their armor but you didn't want to voluntarily learn something so you didn't ask. Why? Because you are the master of misinformation and want to remain that way.
Stem Nematodes can't move very well. The only way they can get from one area to another is with the help of water. Then they can wiggle/swim where they want to go.
They can't travel up the inside of the stem. They wiggle to the outside of the stem when it is wet and wiggle swim upwards until they find another entrance point in the plant stem caused by insect bites, fungus or physical damage.
So if you had stem nematodes you would keep the plants dry on the outside while they grow. Mark or remember the top leaves that are just coming out and this is your starting point. Now let the plant grow 3 to 6 inches from the top point where you started and kept it dry. Cut about an inch above that point. There can not be any stem nematodes in that new part of the stem if you kept the plant stem dry because they could not climb the dry stem.
You need to treat for fusarium and other fungus and molds.
It would be a good practice to put cuts from the same plant in separate containers to soak while preparing to clone just to be safe.
As bad as stem nematodes are to field crops where they can't take cutting of an entire field of alfalfa they can be easily eliminated with a little work and knowhow of how stem nematodes live.
They can't move very well. It is like a salmon swimming up stream except the stream is dry. Oh look bear snacks.
Stem Nematodes can't move very well. The only way they can get from one area to another is with the help of water. Then they can wiggle/swim where they want to go.
They can't travel up the inside of the stem. They wiggle to the outside of the stem when it is wet and wiggle swim upwards until they find another entrance point in the plant stem caused by insect bites, fungus or physical damage.
So if you had stem nematodes you would keep the plants dry on the outside while they grow. Mark or remember the top leaves that are just coming out and this is your starting point. Now let the plant grow 3 to 6 inches from the top point where you started and kept it dry. Cut about an inch above that point. There can not be any stem nematodes in that new part of the stem if you kept the plant stem dry because they could not climb the dry stem.
You need to treat for fusarium and other fungus and molds.
It would be a good practice to put cuts from the same plant in separate containers to soak while preparing to clone just to be safe.
As bad as stem nematodes are to field crops where they can't take cutting of an entire field of alfalfa they can be easily eliminated with a little work and knowhow of how stem nematodes live.
They can't move very well. It is like a salmon swimming up stream except the stream is dry. Oh look bear snacks.
Last edited:
My, my, someone's an angry little man. People calling fusarium "dudding" doesn't mean it's dudding, or the topic of this thread. Fusarium is fusarium. "Dudding" is something completely different. It has to do with the sour dubb strain and it's crosses, and no one has come up with the cause. It's genetic in that strain for unknown reasons, but has nothing to do with fusarium. Aside from that, "dudding" is caused by toxins injected by certain pests, which has been explained in this very thread. I think we all know what fusarium is. So now go back to your name calling. That's detention for you, young man.
And I did see the videos posted by whatthe215. Great we a saw a nematode but none of us here are certified enough to say oh my god that's Ditylenchus dipsaci. Sure we make can make all the assumptions we want as to what nematode it actually is but until I see a lab report saying 100% Ditylenchus dipsaci I'll still go on to think it could be a number of different nematodes. I mean in reality how many different species of nematodes exist? My point exactly and just because it got into the stem big deal they are small enough that I bet lots of different nematodes could get there.
Mikenite, you're right to be skeptical. It hasn't been 100% lab confirmed by anyone yet. But I don't know of any other parasitic nematodes that swarm within the stem.
iTarzan, you might be correct about how stem nematodes move around. I don't remember enough from my research months ago to really speak about it... but there are people that have 'cloned away' from similar duds, INCLUDING myself with a certain cut months before my whole spot got infected. So I think it's possible that they don't get up to the newest growth so long as you aren't watering or foliar spraying in a messy way.
Is anyone still having issues? Anyone with floppy small leafed dud plants?
iTarzan, you might be correct about how stem nematodes move around. I don't remember enough from my research months ago to really speak about it... but there are people that have 'cloned away' from similar duds, INCLUDING myself with a certain cut months before my whole spot got infected. So I think it's possible that they don't get up to the newest growth so long as you aren't watering or foliar spraying in a messy way.
Is anyone still having issues? Anyone with floppy small leafed dud plants?
What is your source for that info, and do you have any experience with 111 degree water treatments?
Yes. It doesn't work. First thing I tried years ago after reading about Dutch greenhouse farmers using it on peppers. Ruined the plants, which is why I tried hot air treatments, and found them to work fine @120 degrees, with no damage to plants. This has been verified by numerous people and is mentioned on many Cannabis sites, and is pretty much standard operating procedure for killing broad/cyclamen mites and their eggs.
Right. The ONLY nematodes that get into the stems and are able to permeate cell membranes are Alfalfa Stem Nematodes. I have done enough research on this to know that is a fact, and in fact, all of it has been spelled out in this thread earlier, including links/studies, but Tarzan obviously didn't read it and thinks he is adding some new information. We all know what fusarium wilt is, and it is not the cause of the "dudding" phenomena that is the topic of this thread. No one knows why sourdub and it's crosses cause dudding in some cases, and no one knows what the toxin is that is spread by broad & cyclamen mites, and stem nematodes. It has been described as a toxin or "growth retardant", "growth inhibitor", but has not been identified by anyone. I have Googled everything there is to Google about it, and I have also called a couple of agricultural universities, and no one has identified the toxin. If you don't believe it, do the research yourself, and you will read the same story about the toxins, but you will not find anything identifying said toxins.
There is a way to fight/prevent it though, and that is by boosting the plants immune system by adding salicylic acid or chitosan, both of which mitigate the effects of the toxins. Aloe will also work, as it contains salicylic acid plus 150 other substances, including vitamins and minerals. I haven't had the chance to work with aloe, but others swear by it, and a quick Google search will verify this.
I have to ask how sure you are that you maintained a temp of 111 degrees, because 112 degrees will almost certainly produce death. And it seemed like you were saying 111 degrees won't kill broad mites, when in fact it will kill nematodes {8-10 kinds} as well according to the UC Davis IPM program. I'd honestly like to hear an opposing source of info if possible, always trying to learn. And the hot air treatments are great for bigger than cutting plants. My 111 degree water survivors grow the same as hot air treated plants, more robust.
If you do some reading on hot water dips, you will see that a number of different temperatures are mentioned, from 111 to 118. Depends who you want to listen to. I tried it once to kill broad mites at about 113-115, and it messed up the plants, so I moved to hot air. Anyway, try dipping fully grown plants in hot water. Not gonna work. You would need a giant garbage pail of hot water, and you would need to keep the temps constant, and they will look like spinach when they come out. Nematodes aren't broad mites, so there's no correlation. Hot air works well on Bms, even in flower, and kills BMs in the room as well.
Wow what a long thread we have here. One question that I have is this…. does it spread from one plant to another? I grow from seed until just recently and picked up a few cuts from cloneville seattle. Dipped them in avid three times so no bugs that I am aware of. Looked OK under flourecents but under halides they had a yellow look and slow growth. Last time I saw something like this was when I had a vinyl sump liner in the mid 80's and the vinyl was toxic. Grow in soil and haven't seen this since then.
So three duds and 4 perfectly healthy plants all grown exactly the same. I can put up pictures if anyone wants to see.
It seems what I have is not the same as what you guys have….. they went into the compost but I did snap a photo. Now if they were duds because of some bug wouldn't it spread to all of the plants eventually?
So three duds and 4 perfectly healthy plants all grown exactly the same. I can put up pictures if anyone wants to see.
It seems what I have is not the same as what you guys have….. they went into the compost but I did snap a photo. Now if they were duds because of some bug wouldn't it spread to all of the plants eventually?
i am wondering if you have a scope? have you flowered these strangely performing types of plants out in the past?
do the branches snap with ease.
I have a digital microscope 200x zoom. Only one plant so far has shown this much stem irregularity. Its weird because the leaves are healthy and green. I don't feed much as the soil does does the job in veg. As for scoping, should I kill the thing and slice it? I've read in this post about some cross sections of the base being done.
Yes, some glue now have branches that snap easily in flower. The buds are deformed, almost foxtail and knuckle looking. Again, most likely my fault. But...
can you post some pics of the buds? thanks for sharing.
So you're saying this is GG4? If so, this is a Sour Dubb cross, and any Sour Dubb cross has a possibility of some plants dudding. It's not contagious, but nobody knows what causes it. That is one of the mysteries of "duds", along with what is the "toxin" referenced in relation to broad & cyclamen mites, and DD nematodes.
If you have easily snapping, brittle branches in GG4, it probably is a dud, but doubtful that it's anything contagious, although, since the cause is unknown, no definitive statement can be made in regards to contagion. It's not your fault. It's genetic, as far as anyone knows. That plant in the picture does look like a dud, but it's always difficult to be sure from a picture. Do the other one's look normal? If so, then you probably have one dud.
- Status
