Does LEDs really yield the same as their "HPS equivalent"

[Guest]

Why oh why do supposedly smart folks even use the term lumen when talking about grow lighting with all the info and research in the last 5-10 years.

 

[Koondense]

Why not?

If they are the only provided measured light parameter it's at least something to work with. Being smart enough to talk in lumens is the new way



Indeed, 12k lumens is not much, it's about the same amount of light emitted by one of my cobs when dimmed at 75%. I would definitely not be excited about that as i use 6 of them on my plants. Go figure, still zero photos to be seen...



Cheers

 

[wvkindbud38]

I've been testing alot of different brands of LEDs. I used to be a die hard HPS and Hortilux bulb is hard to beat. But some of the LEDs are good, mainly the more expensive, but have found some cheaper ones that do ok. But you really gotta have a good Led to give the yields, coverage, ext. I've grew some monsters under HPS over the years. But really only switched about 2yrs ago when I won a helluva Led from Mars Hydro, a SP 250. But there's alot of work setting up the HPS air cooled hoods and everything. The LEDs usually just hang and install easily. But those old magnetic ballast last 15-20yrs if you keep a fan on them. So you can definitely debate it all day lol. At the end of the day what works best for you. I'd definitely say try both before the make a decision. I've used HPS with LEDs also and growed good weed. Most of these guys have got the spectrums honed in on alot better on these LEDs recently than before also. So eventually if not already the LEDs will take over. Supposedly cheaper electric bill if you don't use 15 LEDs in your growroom

 

[Joint Lock]

Look into these brands if your after somethign better then MARS or VIPAR SPECTRA ect

Maxisun (Spider farmer knock off san san chips)

King Brite v2 or v3 (HLG knock off same chips different driver) v2 uses (LM301B / v3 uses LM301H) H being the better chip

MeiJiu v2 or v3 (HLG knock off same chips different driver)

Spider Farmer (HLG knock off samsung LM301B chips Meanwell driver) ***2nd best***

HLG (Best of the best) LM301H chips / Meanwell driver

These all will crush HPS watt for watt (DRAW) . I know ive done the PAR test on them with a apogee extended range meter .So have others . See YT

600w has 1.6 efficacy with hortilux bulb and 1.5 efficacy with 2nd best bulb Digilux (We tested 5 brands of HPS bulbs)

So in order to beat HPS these are the numbers your after

 

[f2obsession]

Why oh why do supposedly smart folks even use the term lumen when talking about grow lighting with all the info and research in the last 5-10 years.

I can remember the time before led lightsources. There were a lot of different CCFL-s with special spectrum designed for plants. They had similar purple light like first generation led grow lights. Those times everybody used HID lamps for growing, purple ccfl-s were good only for propagation, and early veg.

Nowadays Red-blue led lights seem to be replaced by high effiency white led grow lights. Okay, most of them includes some red leds, maybe a few blue, UV, infra etc. but white leds dominating.

I think, the explanation is the same: High lumen wins against PAR.

Optimized light quality is a good thing, but if it has a 100lm/W efficiency against a 4000K White led with 190lm/W, then White led definitely wins. Just like HPS was always beating any special growing CCFL because of its way higher efficiency (higher lm/W value)

 

[Joint Lock]

I can remember the time before led lightsources. There were a lot of different CCFL-s with special spectrum designed for plants. They had similar purple light like first generation led grow lights. Those times everybody used HID lamps for growing, purple ccfl-s were good only for propagation, and early veg.

Nowadays Red-blue led lights seem to be replaced by high effiency white led grow lights. Okay, most of them includes some red leds, maybe a few blue, UV, infra etc. but white leds dominating.

I think, the explanation is the same: High lumen wins against PAR.

Optimized light quality is a good thing, but if it has a 100lm/W efficiency against a 4000K White led with 190lm/W, then White led definitely wins. Just like HPS was always beating any special growing CCFL because of its way higher efficiency (higher lm/W value)

LUMENS = over all light

PAR = percentage of light that can be used by the photosynthetic organism from a given light source which is between 300-800 nanometer range

so for the record lumens being produced in the 300-800 nm range is all that matters to the plant for its growth and flowering .

Total lumens of the light source are alot higher then what can be used by the actual plant for photosythisis

This is why LED crushes HPS when the right setups are used. Due to the light can be custom taylored to produce more light in the needed ranges with less watts

Vs the few spectrums u can buy for say HPS






lumen junkies learn what PAR is

Ill be more then happy to have a grow off using the highest PAR spectrums of 6500K and 5500K (low lumens/CRI) high PAR of same watts of what ever Spectrum/lumens u want as long as same wattage vs same wattage. Just to prove a point . I play with these things every day in 2 hobbies Cannabis and Coral aquaculture of some very high end expensive SPS corals that are rare. Where any small change could lead to death in a hr or 2

 

[Horselover Fat]

Nowadays Red-blue led lights seem to be replaced by high effiency white led grow lights. Okay, most of them includes some red leds, maybe a few blue, UV, infra etc. but white leds dominating.

I'm actually surprised that no company offers a high efficacy blurple AND that no one seems to be DIYing them. It would be an expensive light, but using high efficacy 660 reds and 450 blues you could achieve much higher efficacy than using whites. It might not be a viable commercial product because of the cost, but might be reasonable to diy.

 

[Horselover Fat]

I'm actually surprised that no company offers a high efficacy blurple AND that no one seems to be DIYing them. It would be an expensive light, but using high efficacy 660 reds and 450 blues you could achieve much higher efficacy than using whites. It might not be a viable commercial product because of the cost, but might be reasonable to diy.

In 1:3 cree xpg3 blues and osram oslon hyper reds both run soft (hey we are making a high efficacy light!) we need 80 xpg3 and 240 oslon hyper reds to make 1000umol/s. I looked at led-tech.de and that would cost about 1000€ (+drivers), but it would be ~4umol/j.

Edit: my white led is very efficient. At board level I should be at 2.75umol/j quite a difference! Same ppf at 2/3 wattage

 

[Horselover Fat]

.

 

[indagroove]

I have replaced just about every light in my house with the new "Wonder LED's". Holy shit we can see!!! 12000 lumens is absolutely nothing to sneeze at.

These are the best at the best price I could find. I become more of a convert everyday.
Moved a new mother plant under one. The lamp is about 7 feet above the mother. No problems. This is extreme LED.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Deformable...rand=Unbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

You should become a distributor!

12000 lumens is not much. If the lamp is 7 feet away you would not have much lumens left. I just tested my desk LED and 1 inch from the lamp 9000 lumems , 1 foot away 2200 lumens?
So how many lumens do you have at the top and the bottom of the plant?

You aren't measuring lumens with your meter, you are measuring lux.

 

[roybart]

You should become a distributor!



You aren't measuring lumens with your meter, you are measuring lux.

my bad..
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]12000 lumens is not much. If the lamp is 7 feet away you would not have much lux left. I just tested my desk LED and 1 inch from the lamp 9000 lux , 1 foot away 2200 lux?
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] So how many lux do you have at the top and the bottom of the plant?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I know it not the perfect measurement tool, but I don't have $600 odd for a PAR meter.. Lux will give me a reasonable, repeatable way to measure light. Once I can get 70,000 lux all over my plants 1.5 sq foot buckets @ 100 watts, I will be happy...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the interest of truth justice and the comics, any static measurement about your grow is YOUR data. Yes it can be a yard stick,but its still really a variable.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Consider light to be the Catalyst for all other cardinal parameters, it seems to me logical to get the light as best you can.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Watts per Gram is great for YOUR light source, however consider the impact of the other parameters, is your heat /cooling sources the same, temperature nutes etc. Will all the all the values be the same as yours?? Nope so debating [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Watts per Gram is more mental masturbation than a reliable data source.
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]https://www.nature.com/articles/s41438-020-0283-7 LED info..[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID9rE5JewVg[/FONT][/FONT] Dr. Bruce Bugbee he knoweth what he clicketh.





[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

 

[f2obsession]

LUMENS = over all light

PAR = percentage of light that can be used by the photosynthetic organism from a given light source which is between 300-800 nanometer range

so for the record lumens being produced in the 300-800 nm range is all that matters to the plant for its growth and flowering .

Total lumens of the light source are alot higher then what can be used by the actual plant for photosythisis

This is why LED crushes HPS when the right setups are used. Due to the light can be custom taylored to produce more light in the needed ranges with less watts

Vs the few spectrums u can buy for say HPS






lumen junkies learn what PAR is

Ill be more then happy to have a grow off using the highest PAR spectrums of 6500K and 5500K (low lumens/CRI) high PAR of same watts of what ever Spectrum/lumens u want as long as same wattage vs same wattage. Just to prove a point . I play with these things every day in 2 hobbies Cannabis and Coral aquaculture of some very high end expensive SPS corals that are rare. Where any small change could lead to death in a hr or 2

I would love a side by side experiment, so if you play with these things allready, please post a diary in the side by side section. I bet a lot people would appreciate it here.

Till then I keep using relatively cheap 3000K and 4000K white leds with 160+ lm/W maybe with some supplemental Red and Blue leds. They allready drop HID lamps far behind in my experience.

 

[indagroove]

my bad..
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]12000 lumens is not much. If the lamp is 7 feet away you would not have much lux left. I just tested my desk LED and 1 inch from the lamp 9000 lux , 1 foot away 2200 lux?
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] So how many lux do you have at the top and the bottom of the plant?

Inverse Square Law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law

 

[ganjourno]

I'm actually surprised that no company offers a high efficacy blurple AND that no one seems to be DIYing them. It would be an expensive light, but using high efficacy 660 reds and 450 blues you could achieve much higher efficacy than using whites. It might not be a viable commercial product because of the cost, but might be reasonable to diy.

This is a bit incorrect. The par curve is shallower in reality, meaning that less of the light in the yellow-green region is wasted than you think:

So from this, you can see the most important spectral region is the deep red region, and the least important is the blue-green, but plant response is still ~60% efficient in this region! So while light in the green region doesn't cause a flowering response (since phytochrome is not active in this region), the plant can still use green light to photosynthesize.

So when you add this together, warm-white LEDs at 160lm/watt will far outperform red+blue LEDS at 80 lm/watt. If the average McCree response of a white LED is around 80% across the spectrum, then the effective Par-corrected efficiency would be 0.8*160lm = 128lm/watt PAR. This is still 60% more efficient than 650nm deep reds at 80lm/watt.

 

[ganjourno]

Inverse Square Law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law

You also need to account for the shape of the room. If your garden is up against while/silver walls, these will act as a waveguide and light will penetrate further down. The smaller the garden, the more that the sidewalls will help light travel down further.

 

[Joint Lock]

I would love a side by side experiment, so if you play with these things allready, please post a diary in the side by side section. I bet a lot people would appreciate it here.

Till then I keep using relatively cheap 3000K and 4000K white leds with 160+ lm/W maybe with some supplemental Red and Blue leds. They allready drop HID lamps far behind in my experience.

Post a dairy ? Hell all u got to do is goto youtube so many ppl have broken this down its rediculess .

 

[indagroove]

You also need to account for the shape of the room. If your garden is up against while/silver walls, these will act as a waveguide and light will penetrate further down. The smaller the garden, the more that the sidewalls will help light travel down further.

Sure. Just as you need to consider LED overlap, as the inverse square law is based on a single point light source. However either way the physics hold true.

 

[sshz]

Gavita LED....day 40.

 

[wvkindbud38]

I got 1 Aceple AG 6000 I can't wait to try!!!! I got 1 of those Sonolipo Leds, and Updayday 2500 Quantum Box. I'm gonna use these and my Mars Hydro SP 250......and I've got several really good budget LEDs under 150$. I'll be testing alot of things in my next grow here soon guys. Everything will be in my indoor WVs this and that thread I've had going. If anyone wants to come over after it cools down a little, and I get some Promix, Ocean Forest and try them out.!!!! If they penetrate the canopy there usually good leds

 

[Horselover Fat]

This is a bit incorrect. The par curve is shallower in reality, meaning that less of the light in the yellow-green region is wasted than you think:
View Image

So from this, you can see the most important spectral region is the deep red region, and the least important is the blue-green, but plant response is still ~60% efficient in this region! So while light in the green region doesn't cause a flowering response (since phytochrome is not active in this region), the plant can still use green light to photosynthesize.

So when you add this together, warm-white LEDs at 160lm/watt will far outperform red+blue LEDS at 80 lm/watt. If the average McCree response of a white LED is around 80% across the spectrum, then the effective Par-corrected efficiency would be 0.8*160lm = 128lm/watt PAR. This is still 60% more efficient than 650nm deep reds at 80lm/watt.

I'm not talking about the plant response. I wouldn't use white leds if I thought green is wasted. The mono leds themselves have a much higher efficacy than whites so you could build a very high efficacy fixture using monos. Noone is doing that for some reason.