Does government have a social contract mandate?. Does it exist ? Arguments preferred over insults please.

[Captain Red Eye]

i'm of course talking about our modern dollars we actually use. yes, we have established it is not backed by gold (i think it's the pound that's backed by or was backed by silver). it's the same level of imaginary societal paradigm as the social contract, as i see it... and yet i bet you use modern trappings, including the dollar, right?

a half black person is black.

not all half black people identify with their black heritage, but the default is that even if you only have a little black, you're black. there's a reason for this: would poor, unknown barack obama be treated by avg police as a half- white man with a white mother? or as a black man?

A half black person is half black. A half Irish person is half Irish. What people "identify" them as doesn't change that.

You should look up hypodescent rule. Otherwise known as "the one drop rule" meaning racists assigned people with any "negro blood" in them as being black. Don't align with racist policy to try to prove a point maybe?

If a person is half Irish and they are enslaved, it's just as reasonable to say "Irish were enslaved" as it is to call Barack "black". Equality!!

 

[Captain Red Eye]

You have no idea what an actual free market is and persist in conflating crony capitalism with it.

​

Statist claim: Free Markets are the same as corporatism.​

Fallacy:​

A state-regulated crony "capitalist" market is a "free market," and its failures are blamed thereupon.

For example, the housing crisis or Wall Street bailouts are blamed on the "free market".

Response:​

Do not confuse libertarian capitalism with "crony capitalism" or "corporatism", which is the (incestuous) marriage of government and business. A business with one or one primary customer, that customer being the state, is no more "private" than the state military; and the same goes for one whose existence or profits are protected by state violence (i.e., those that depend on IP laws, prisoners delivered to them by laws against victimless "crimes", state-enforced monopolies, and the like). Voluntaryists are in no wise supporters of such corporations, or, at least, not their privilege (a business providing trash pickup services is fine; one given an exclusive contract to operate in a city is not, because of the state's threat of harm to other competing businesses, and not due to the nature of their service, which is a useful one in isolation.)

Certainly state bailouts have nothing whatsoever to do with a free market—they represent taking money by force from people and giving it to banks that are in bed with government (remember the revolving door between lobbyists, government, and big corporations?) It's neither free nor market-oriented; it is entirely an involuntary process for the victims.

While "free market" by itself may not imply the Non Aggression Principle, it certainly implies that, duh, there is an actual market, and people are free to trade, which certainly rules out bailouts and any other plunder. However, you can be sure that when a voluntaryist is talking about a free market, one in a generally free society where the NonAggressionPrinciple is respected is being posited. This means (sorry statist) no "free market" in slaves, because of course it is aggression to kidnap someone and force them to labor for you, or appropriate their labor. (DBR)

The "invisible hand" of the free market has been swatted aside by the iron fist of the state. Blaming the economic crisis on the free market makes as much sense as blaming 9/11 on unicorns. Reagan was no advocate of the free market aside from paying lip service to it on occasion.

Subsidies and bailouts are political plunder, not market exchange. Corporate charters are created by the state. Mega-corporations write regulations through their lobbyists to prevent new competing businesses from starting up while grandfathering most of their existing procedures. Government taxes are an exponential drain on the economy by adding to the cost of every link in the chains of economic exchanges. The Federal Reserve distorts the monetary system by setting interest rates at arbitrary levels that send the wrong signals for production, investment, and savings. (LT)

Above came from Hog Eye Bills website.

 

[Captain Red Eye]

Except YOU like hierarchies backed by force. How else would you make an otherwise peaceful but disinterested person pay for your ideas, unless you use a forcible hierarchy?


Now onto the video.

The problem with Chomsky saying no hierarchies is it fails to make a distinction between a forcibly imposed hierarchy and a hierarchy that arises from something other than force.

For example, let's say you and another person have similar life circumstances and nobody handed either of you anything.

If you lay around all day posting spurious arguments which conflate crony capitalism with an actual free market and somebody else uses their time to create more value with their own labor and ingenuity. There are consequences of those choices.

Your own choices have given you less money or other resources than the industrious person. In that sense, there's now a kind of hierarchy, which arose not from force, but from two individuals making different choices.

Sooner or later by your own choice you have less than the industrious person. If the industrious person didn't defraud anyone or lie, cheat or steal you have no claim on what they acquired. You made different choices and nobody forced you to do that.

Also, I'm not a huge fan of Molyneux but he has said some things which make sense. as has Chomsky.

 

[mean mr.mustard]

I am a living breathing man.

 

[mean mr.mustard]

I'd like to hear if you think there is a social contract ? Yes? No?

I have no wish to create joinder with you.

 

[nepalnt21]

Don't align with racist policy to try to prove a point maybe?

i can't help if things align, i'm telling telling you based upon my black friends' experiences.

this is also wayyyyy off track on a realllllly stupid origin point (the iRIsHsLAveS iNTHeAmERiCas), not sure why you're still on it.

side note, a couple of my buddies that so happen to be half black have expressed to me that light skinned black dudes get it from racist white POSs (sometimes cops), aaaaand sometimes other black guys who are darker skinned.

anyway, incidental to the incidental, race realism is also very, very stupid.

but yes, obama is black. he's black and he obviously also identifies as black.

View attachment 19119960

what the fuck is your point?

it's not even that hard, money backed by imaginary fairies in the sky (reminds me of YEC)... same as how we are thrust out of the vagina into the social contract.

you use money, you dri sorry travel, i assume, in motorized carriages or whatever, and you probably don't live in petoria so it must be on something sociali federalism (partially) helped pave...

what is your point?!

 

[mean mr.mustard]

[]

literally the biggest slave owners in history were not ' white' and the ones you claim were ' white' were mostly jews , who were the ship owners, and who claim to be a race .

slavery was around at the begging of mankind and exists today

you hate the white race through your life experiences on twitter

stop race baiting and making everything about colour or identity politics. it is insincere and disingenuous

and stop being a total dork

So you think they were Jews?

 

[shiva82]

i can't help if things align, i'm telling telling you based upon my black friends' experiences.

this is also wayyyyy off track on a realllllly stupid origin point (the iRIsHsLAveS iNTHeAmERiCas), not sure why you're still on it.

side note, a couple of my buddies that so happen to be half black have expressed to me that light skinned black dudes get it from racist white POSs (sometimes cops), aaaaand sometimes other black guys who are darker skinned.

anyway, incidental to the incidental, race realism is also very, very stupid.

but yes, obama is black. he's black and he obviously also identifies as black.


what the fuck is your point?

it's not even that hard, money backed by imaginary fairies in the sky (reminds me of YEC)... same as how we are thrust out of the vagina into the social contract.

you use money, you dri sorry travel, i assume, in motorized carriages or whatever, and you probably don't live in petoria so it must be on something sociali federalism (partially) helped pave...

what is your point?!

thanks for your contribution . very profound

 

[buzzmobile]

arguments which conflate crony capitalism with an actual free market

Is there an actual free market to reference?

 

[Captain Red Eye]

i can't help if things align, i'm telling telling you based upon my black friends' experiences.

this is also wayyyyy off track on a realllllly stupid origin point (the iRIsHsLAveS iNTHeAmERiCas), not sure why you're still on it.

side note, a couple of my buddies that so happen to be half black have expressed to me that light skinned black dudes get it from racist white POSs (sometimes cops), aaaaand sometimes other black guys who are darker skinned.

anyway, incidental to the incidental, race realism is also very, very stupid.

but yes, obama is black. he's black and he obviously also identifies as black.


what the fuck is your point?

it's not even that hard, money backed by imaginary fairies in the sky (reminds me of YEC)... same as how we are thrust out of the vagina into the social contract.

you use money, you dri sorry travel, i assume, in motorized carriages or whatever, and you probably don't live in petoria so it must be on something sociali federalism (partially) helped pave...

what is your point?!

My point on Irish slaves is there certainly were Irish slaves somewhere in history, if you claim Barack Obama is black and you conveniently ignore his white mother. You've set the standard for anyone else to call a 1/2 Irish . 1/2 African person, Irish, if that person "identifies" as Irish.

Spanked by your own assertion is not a good way to make an argument.

If you use one standard to call a person black and a different standard to call a person Irish, you have set up different standards on how you determine race. or ethnicity. That's an argument of convenience and fails due to an inconsistency in logic.

It's similar to how you and many other people have been trained to view rights violators. Most of us can easily identify a rights violation when a nongovernment person is doing the violation.

Then, a mental shift happens when the very same rights violating action is done by another human being or group of human beings claiming to be government. Somehow the very same action is not a rights violation. Which of course is absurd and relies on using two standards to judge the same actions of human beings doing the same things to other people. How convenient.

Fascinating to watch people contort logic to fit their mental capture. That is my point. You can take comfort that you are not alone. Millions of people were trained to "think" the same way.



Debt notes backed by force or backed by nothing are not money, any fool in Zimbabwe can tell you why.



Also, there is no overarching "social contract" if the so called "agreement" involves duress and a consent violation of otherwise disinterested but peaceful people. Would you enter a contract I forced on you and you didn't like the terms ? Doubtful, you'd tell me to fuck off and you should.

A forcble "social contract" is a kind of capture, similar to slavery since it uses threats of offensive force as a rationale to limit the freedom of action (rights) of people that aren't trying to limit others freedom of action.

You falsely confuse "society" with the state. They are different; the state does not build society, but people do, of their own initiative. The state frequently interferes, by coercing people on their own land, and extorting them, but it is not "society"; it is the disease that infects society. Society and government cannot be merged; one is voluntary, the other force. - Anonymous Quote

 

[Captain Red Eye]

Is there an actual free market to reference?

Yes. More in the micro sense, free market transactions occur millions of times a day.

A free market action occurs anytime one party makes an offer and another party accepts the offer and the trade happens without interruption from an unwanted 3rd party. There are other circumstances possible but for brevity let's go with that.

You and I are in grade school, you have a bag of chips, I have a piece of pie.

I want the chips, you want the pie. We agree and the deal is made. We both benefitted according to our value judgment, nobody involved in the trade was threatened to make the deal.

If the teacher had intervened and said we couldn't do that. but we did it without teachers permission, we did a black market (but free) trade.

An actual free market in the macro sense is limited by government interventions backed up by threats of force for failing to cut them in or obey some edict or another they make.

 

[Captain Red Eye]

I have no wish to create joinder with you.

I respect your right to choose your own path.

If you reciprocated, we would be equals in maintaining peace.

I have no wish to create joinder with people or systems run by people that violate peace. Pity you feel different and are unable to stifle your cognitive dissonance long enough to view things as they are and not as you've been trained to view them.

 

[Captain Red Eye]

thanks for your contribution . very profound

 

[buzzmobile]

An actual free market in the macro sense is limited by government interventions backed up by threats of force for failing to cut them in or obey some edict or another they make.

Is that a No to my question?
Micro scale is not the question.
Can an actual free market exist under any government?

 

[shiva82]

Is that a No to my question?
Micro scale is not the question.
Can an actual free market exist under any government?

free market capitalism existed before governments . it was a natural human and organic manifestation

 

[Captain Red Eye]

Is that a No to my question?
Micro scale is not the question.
Can an actual free market exist under any government?

Free Markets whether micro or macro are the aggregate of the few or many trade transactions that occur within them.

Can there be a totally actual free market with government? Good question. I will think on that today.

Off the cuff...
Not if the government is one that gains its members through nonconsensual means, and interjects itself into matters of trade.

Theoretically you could have a micro government that only administered roads and adjudicated disputes but did not intervene or dictate terms of free trade, which would result in freer (is that even a word?) markets.

 

[Captain Red Eye]

free market capitalism existed before governments . it was a natural human and organic manifestation

That's a good point. When trade began to replace rape and pillaging to gain wanted goods, peace became possible.

Free market cavemen for the win!

 

[buzzmobile]

Theoretically you could have a micro government that only administered roads and adjudicated disputes but did not intervene or dictate terms of free trade, which would result in freer (is that even a word?) markets.

Micro governments for economic balkanization?

 

[buzzmobile]

free market capitalism existed before governments . it was a natural human and organic manifestation

We are living after governments.

Can an actual free market exist under any government?

 

[shiva82]

i aspire and strive to be a free market caveman tbf