DIY Nutrients formulations, recipes, chemistry etc.

[YosemiteSam]

ok ok...so now i'm totally confused...1500 concentration to make 0-9-18 at 2.5 ml/gal seems unreasonable...really?

173 g MKP
241 g Potash

in 1 L of water?

I don't use potash but I do use mkp...I use it at 1 gram per gallon and that provides 60 ppm P and 75 ppm K.

Those rates would burn up any plant.

My current formula is:

2.3 grams CaNO3 per gallon
0.22 grams per gallon ammonium phosphate.(this is used to balance the alkalinity of my water and provide a media pH of 6.4...my alkalinity is in the 50-60 ppm range, your results would vary depending on your exact alkalinity)
1.6 grams epsom salt
1 gram of mkp
0.1 grams STEM (micros)
0.1 grams Fe dpta
0.1 grams Zn edta

In flower I look for bud size doubling weekly and increase mkp as needed. later in flower I lower CaNO3 as needed

I occasionally foliar spray with K2SiO3 And also amino chelated B when the plants go into flower.

If using peat I load the media with a little CaCO3 and I am fixin to load coco with Ca Peroxide...both of these moves are designed to raise the base cation exchange % of Ca to 65-70%

This allows me to control media pH pretty precisely, allows me to run a bunch of Ca, allows me to run proper levels of micros and allows me to avoid to much competition between Mg and K.

Try to get that in a bottled nute.

Having said that if you use RO water Veg n Bloom ain't no bad nute. The rest of them totally suck as far as I am concerned.

 

[HG23]

YS, I think I remember reading somewhere that you have used a product called Calcium25, is that true still? I know it has some B in it to aid in the calcium uptake so I thought maybe thats what you mean by spraying with amino chelated B. I have some of the Ca25 here and am curious what dosage and schedule you use it on if at all.

 

[YosemiteSam]

I use Albion's Ca product now as I like it better. It is designed as a foliar product to make getting Ca to growing tips/fruits easier.

 

[PetFlora]

YS now that's damned interesting

What about this? http://www.swansonvitamins.com/SWU062/ItemDetail

 

[HG23]

Thanks for the response. I remember a discussion talking about foliar Ca being most important during early flower/stretch because the high growth rate can exceed the plants ability to supply the cells with Ca ions and with it being an immobile nutrient once the opportunity has passed the plant tissue will suffer. Does that sound right to you? I experienced some leaf degredation that I think might be due to lack of Ca my last round. I'm planning to use the Ca25 about once a week because I think that's what I remember you or spurr or someone saying. The package says to use 1 lb per 100gal or 4.5g/gal, does that dosage sound correct to you?

 

[Mr Celsius]

I completely copied this off of another site that copied it from another site but its a nice recipe to make your own Tabzz/shooting powder/MOAB/PK whatever:

This is mainly geared to big time growers or a few buddies going in on supplys to maximize funds in tough economic times

I recently went to a fertilizer manufaturing supply company and took along my trusty bottle of M**B which is a granular bloom booster. This is what they told me..........

I don't want to be sued so M**B will have to suffice I am sure some will guess and be so kind as to fill the other readers in

M**B consists of 3 ingredients which are listed on the package from largest proportion to least

1st is simply Mono-potassium phosphate which is known as MKP 0-52-34
it sells through fertilizer companies locally for 48.50 for 25kgs This 25kg bag is enough to make 27.53 1kg size containers of M**B

2nd is Mono-Ammonium Phosphate, which is known as MAP and is 11-52-34
This also sells through fertilizer companies locally for 110.00 for 25kgs
hopefully you can find it in a smaller quantity than I could as it is enough to make 275 1kg containers of M**B

lastly there is thiamine hydrochloride. online chemical lab supply places carry this. (Google is your friend)
I got this at 49.00 per 100 grams which is enough to make 100 1kg containers or M**B


for 1kg of M**B you use 905.19 grams of MKP
90.81 grams of MAP

Here is a post from years ago on this site on how to make your own Lucas formula for pennies on the dollar:

It's pretty amazing how much some people are willing to pay for their fertilizers, considering what they are made from...

I'm a chemist and making my own seemed like a good idea. Also, after you buy close to 100 kg of fertilizers (I probably won't need more if I live to be 100) you can't just let them sit there, can you? The current mix is:

54 ppm N - 50 ppm P - 100ppm K - 35 ppm Mg - 58 ppm Ca

It can be made by taking 100 liters of RO water and adding 25 g Ca(NO3)2, 10 g KNO3,
22.5 g KH2PO4 and 35 g MgSO4x7H2O + an appropriate amount of premixed micronutrients.

It's probably one of the cheapest hydroponics fertilizers in the world Double the amounts and you have a pretty classical Lucas formula with some extra Mg and K.

A more convenient three part liquid fertilizer can be prepared by making near saturated stock solutions of:

1. Ca(NO3)2 + KNO3
2. KH2PO4
3. MgSO4 + micro.

Mixed in the correct ratios of course.

One place to get trace elements for a DIY hydroponic fertilizer:

http://www.tridonhydroponics.com/content/chelated-trace-elements-2-kg-0

I did a quick calculation how much would it cost to make 10 000 liters of Lucas formula if everything is ordered from tridon. Enough to grow at least 100 big buckets. You'd need:

5 kg calcium nitrate - 20.85$
2 kg potassium nitrate - 24.85$
5 kg monopotassium phosphate - 40.85$
5 kg magnesium sulfate heptahydrate - 33.85$
50 g trace elements -2.95$

total 123.35$, or 1.2$ per plant

Bought it 50lb bags the price per plant will be halved or more.

 

[YosemiteSam]

YS now that's damned interesting

What about this? http://www.swansonvitamins.com/SWU062/ItemDetail

That is the same company and the same chelation/complexing process. But they make a line for plants

 

[YosemiteSam]

Thanks for the response. I remember a discussion talking about foliar Ca being most important during early flower/stretch because the high growth rate can exceed the plants ability to supply the cells with Ca ions and with it being an immobile nutrient once the opportunity has passed the plant tissue will suffer. Does that sound right to you? I experienced some leaf degredation that I think might be due to lack of Ca my last round. I'm planning to use the Ca25 about once a week because I think that's what I remember you or spurr or someone saying. The package says to use 1 lb per 100gal or 4.5g/gal, does that dosage sound correct to you?

View attachment 170780

I use to use a teaspoon per gallon...right around that weight if I remember.

I would use it bi weekly or monthly you should not need more than that.

That leaf looks like the EC was way to high to me. What are you feeding and what is your EC?

 

[HG23]

Ok thanks for the info. Those were being fed Jacks 5-12-26 and cal nit at the recommended full strength (3.68g/gal and 2.43g/gal calnit). Media was Roots Organics soil. I was not using MOST at the time and am thinking that probably had something to do with it. The leaves kinda started with rusty, necrotic spots that progressed into the above pic. My initial thought was a Ca lockout. I just had my water analyzed and have total alkalinity of 59ppm CaCO3, 19ppm Ca and 3.2ppm Mg. I have always wondered about Jacks not having any ammonium to balance with the nitrate.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Does Roots Organic come loaded with some nutes? If it does I would think that is the problem

The CaNO3 used by Peters actually has something like 9-10% ammoniacal nitrogen in it. With your alkalinity 15% will control your pH perfectly (same alkalinity as mine).

You could replace some of the CaNO3 with ammonium phosphate to achieve that. My small batches are 69 grams CaNO3 and 7 grams AP...just adopt that ratio to your batch size.

I would not add additional micros to the 5-12-26. That will definitely burn your leaves.

 

[HG23]

Hey YS,

Yes the Roots Organic is a potting soil and has about 25 total ingredients, so I'm positive it has nutritional value to the plants.

Until recently I've been under the impression that using soil is very forgiving and not very sensitive to the exact feed it receives as it has some "buffer" capacity. I don't know where I picked that up, but am beginning to see things differently after that last grow. I have always wanted to transition to raw salts and an inert medium from the Roots soil and cutting edge solutions nutes I was "schooled" in, but have learned to not make big changes to my grow method all at once. So the last two grows I transitioned to using the Jack's with soil which came out fine the first time (AK47) but showed the burning from the above pic the second and most recent (OG Kush). That grow still came out pretty good, quality and quantity wise, just had the burning on the fan leaves only which the trimmers had no problem dealing with. This time I did a couple beds of straight coco and the rest Roots soil. Everything looks healthy so far, the coco plants are rooted much better and are growing faster than the soil plants.

As for the CaNO3, I believe the Yara product is the double salt containing a little NH4 not the JR Peters. After reading your post I discontinued using the .1g/gal MOST with the jack's.

I just had the water analysis done in anticipation of mixing my own using spurr's ratios as a starting point. I am liking the coco so far and will probably switch over to it %100 next round if everything works out.

Early Flowering (during stretch):
NO3=128
NH4=32
P= 30
K= 230
Ca= 133.3
Mg= 76.7
S= 100
Si= 100
Fe= 2
Zn= .075
B= .3
Mn= .75
Cu= .03
Mo= .045
Na= .02

Full flowering:
NO3= 128
NH4=32
P= 90
K= 200
Ca= 133.3
Mg= 66.7
S= 60
Si= 90
Fe= 2
Zn= .075
B= .3
Mn= .75
Cu= .03
Mo= .045
Na= .02

 

[avant gardener]

can anyone give me the ratios to get 0-1-1 or multiples, like liquid kool bloom?
Magnesium Phosphate, Potassium Phosphate, Potassium Sulphate are what's in that one.

apologies if that information is already in this thread. i'm still making my way through all 300 posts.

 

[whodare]

cns 17 Ripe is a low nitrogen high pk finishing product. 1-5-6 i believe...

 

[dizzlekush]

Whats with the popularity of D.I.Y. mixers using P < Mg, S?

Yosemite Sam, HG23... etc? I've never seen any reasoning or logic for this, but its a very common practice amongst the D.I.Y. formulators. Some explanation would be appreciated.

Particularly the P:S ratio, which should be kept in mind as the 2 compete in the rhizosphere. I have never seen any reasoning for S to be dominant in this role for Cannabis.

 

[YosemiteSam]

I have currently settled on P approximately equal to Mg. I have personally run P from 24 ppm to a little over 100 and seen no difference.

My current fooking abouts focus on Albrecht's Ca:Mg ratios and Bruce Tainio's plant sap pH theories. Based on that I have been pushing Ca up and Mg down.

I have no science behind SO4...other than it is another thing I can move all over the place and see what happens.

My current goal is to obtain base cation saturations of 65% Ca and Mg of 15% and possibly the goal of H at 12%. Then I intend to slightly under supply K which should show up as lower brix and sap pH in older leaves...then to slowly work it up to the point where it all evens out.

Looking a little like it is going to occur somewhere around N=Ca=K but I would not say that for sure yet.

I am not a huge reader of scientific studies...I am more a fan of find a theory that sounds cool and then fuck about and see how it works out.

 

[dizzlekush]

Had a chat with Spurr and he answered my question:

Q: Whats with the popularity of D.I.Y. mixers using P < Mg, S?


A:

Sulfate is normally higher than phosphate in nutrient solutions due to the sourcing of the fertilizer compounds. I.e., macro cations often are found as SO4 compounds, therefore, it's often non-trival to have S mg/L lower than P mg/L. And, in this case, the ion competition between P and S (for uptake from rhizosphere) aren't large, unlike case of K to Mg, for example, which happens to be stronger than the cas of K to Ca. If S was 50 mg/L that would provide sufficient S for most plants/species, and if P was 25-50 mg/L that would be sufficient P, however, for constant root contact (flow) systems like DTW NFT or aero, or (non-dtw) RDWC, P can be as low as a few mg/L to a dozen or so mg/L. When using tissue assays to design nutrient profiles it's best to think about the assay results as guide-posts, not as strict paths to to which one must adhere; that's why it's correct to have S ppm higher than P ppm in nutrient solution profile

S is normally higher (in concentration) then P in most all academic nutrient solutions, where S is normally equal to or above 80 mg/L, up to ~150 mg/L. I try to keep S below 110 mg/L, and keep P around 40-50 mg/L, unless the irrigation system is constant root contact like NFT, Aero, RDWC, etc. For me, because I use Hydrobuddy, my S is higher than if I used other software I own like Smart! Fertilizer software and Nutron2000+, that's because Hydrobuddy uses S as a 'pliable' element in terms of my goal mg/L, which makes all other calculations for other ions more accurate to my goals for each element.

For example:
Hoagland No1. = P 31 mg/L ; S 113 mg/L
Hoagland No2 = P 24 mg/L ; S 113 mg/L
Steiner = P 50 mg/L ; S 148 mg/L

P.S. One thing to consider with the mg/L of S in the soilless solution is the mg/L of Ca, re precipitation into calcium sulfate. To fix this precipitation which forms over time, flushing with plan water doens't work, so, flushing with no lower than pH 4.5 should be used, at most pH 5, and a good surfactant too.

 

[YosemiteSam]

When you get right down to it I hate using silicate in a nute soln anymore. That limits my other anion choices to nitrate (which I absolutely want to control to a certain number) leaving phosphate and sulfate for me to mess about with. Within reason I have seen no big difference either way

In fact primarily I am using those two to deliver K...trying to keep them both between 40-100 say.

It is the cation balance that I am finding fascinating at the moment. One of me Albrecht guys at Nutri Tech had this to say in answer to a question

August 6th, 2010 at 7:58 pm
Hi folks
In the Mineral Management section it is stated that “The potassium to magnesium ratio – try to achieve equal ppm of these two”. Are you sure that is what you meant?
My understanding is that potassium (K) is the second most required mineral, arguably the most important for fruiting crops.
Whereas phosphorous (P) is generally not required in as high levels with a desired ratio pretty much matching to magnesium.
Thus I believe that the wording should be changed to:
“The phosphorous to magnesium ratio – try to achieve equal ppm of these two”.
Please let me know if I am mistaken.
A follow on question for my knowledge is:
What happens when P and Mg do not have a 1:1 ratio? Say the ratio was 1:2 or 2:1 and both minerals were still within the desired 0.4-0.8% range. Obviously if the ratios where greater than 1:2 or 2:1 then the desired percentage range could not be met.
Cheers,

Graeme Sait Says:
August 16th, 2010 at 11:35 am
The potassium to magnesium ratio actually affects the uptake of phosphorous. You are correct in terms of the importance of phosphorous. However, we have found that if you try and achieve a 1:1 ratio between magnesium and potassium, then you will also achieve maximum uptake of phosphorous. The reason for this is that magnesium is a phosphate synergist which boosts the uptake of phosphorous, while potassium is a phosphate antagonist (limiting the uptake of P). So if you get the magnesium to potassium ratio right, then you have the perfect conditions for phosphorous uptake.
Graeme.

I actually tried it...don't listen to everything Nutri Tech claims...I find a 2:1 K:Mg ratio to be amazing for plant growth through stretch at least and plant health to be off the charts that way.

 

[dizzlekush]

I find a 2:1 K:Mg ratio to be amazing for plant growth through stretch at least and plant health to be off the charts that way.

K at 100-130?
Mg at 50-65?

Just my guess. Where you putting Ca at?

 

[avant gardener]

are NPK analysis numbers calculated by mass or volume?

 

[YosemiteSam]

K at 100-130?
Mg at 50-65?

Just my guess. Where you putting Ca at?

The formula I have been using to great success is

CaNO3 (3.7 grams per gallon), epsom (2.0), mkp (1.33) plus some micros of course and some additional Fe dpta (cause I run my root zone pH higher than most...6.4)

By my calculations that gives me 152-80-100-178-50-66 Ca:Mg 3.56

I am also playing around with lower P and some k2so4 to replace the k and after stretch lower Ca and N along with higher K but have not reached any conclusion yet.

I find that first formula to work all the way through as long as you pay attention and dilute it when your plants reach that point where they slow down eating...normally somewhere during the 6th wk for me.

What I find is that if you go short/no veg any old formula will get you to the end...maybe not 100% healthy but to the end. The longer you have them in the ground, or the healthier you want them, then the more important the base cation saturation becomes.

Or...you can use plenty of humus with living critters and it gets even easier.