Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[whodare]

i defo in more of a harder prune than most but it's not true defo as prescribed by the op. i've said that before so either your short term memory sucks, or you don't fucking read.

So you don't defoliate, you prune.

btw dr....i don't give a fuck what you do for a living. the only thing you've stated about sugars (glucose and sucrose) that is true is that they don't diffuse anything from their roots. they do absorb nutrients, INCLUDING sucrose if made available, as i've stated more than a few fucking times. when you take away a plants ability to produce as much glucose and sucrose (pulling leaves), it's gonna get it elsewhere if it can, and IT DOES (hence the scientific data i provided, not the hearsay and conjecture YOU'VE stated).

You've proven excised root tips absorbe sucrose, you haven't shown growing plants up taking sucrose and utilizing it... Hello anyone in there

i'm not gonna look at a fucking scrog because it DOES NOT pertain to me. i'm not growing tress. i'm growing in a vsog. i get light from top to bottom, you don't. my tops are 14-18" away from a 1k, and so are the bottoms, yours are NOT! your larf ='s hash. my "larf" ='s bud $. plain and fucking simple. comparing a scrog to a sog is irrelevant again.

Hm I'm growing sog, what ya pullin of a 1k, how long do you veg?

Please inform me how your lowers are just as close as your tops, oh vert, so vertical lighting increased the quality of lowers not defoliation.

the only way you CAN compare yields is through continuous runs with the same genetics in the same room using a defo run vs. a non defo run. gpsf mean nothing, g's per watt mean nothing. g's per grow (comparing defo to non defo) do. everything else does NOT matter!

Yes if your comparing only you to yourself, but we are trying to see if there is something to this tek, unless people start averaging numbers outside of what is standard it's bull.

The only way to compare yields is in my post above

i can act any age i wish. ya don't like it? too fucking bad. it's your problem, not mine. i get defensive when 2 people who don't know shit about something try to interject with no basis for their stance. like i said before, you two that are arguing against defo is like saying 1 on 1 sex is better than a fucking 2 girls at once when you've never done it! until you do, you don't know shit!

Typical juvenile response. I don't care how you act but people usually stop reading douchebags posts.

You get defensive like I'm attacking you not the tech, typical childish behavior.

You have no idea what I have and haven't done sonny boy.

 

[noyd666]

Ditch the veg room then.

From the start, stick clones in flower room, commence veg.

After 3 weeks take clones of vegging plants in flower room1 and flip to flower.

Two weeks after that (clones now rooted) start the veg on room2.

At week 7 flower in room1 and Week 3 veg in room2 take clones from veg plants in room2

Week 8-9 harvest room1. A week long dry, boom stick those clones from room2 into the now empty clean room1.

Wash,rinse,repeat

You can play with the timing of veg and cloning based on your plant count, and strains flowering time, but I hope this was a good example for you.

hi, not new idea though, we have been doing this style for years

 

[whodare]

I never said it was original...

I offered it as a better option than defoliation, and it's guaranteed to increase yield too.

 

[iampolluted]

So you don't defoliate, you prune.

i've stated that before. not my fault you have comprehension, or memory problems. the way some of my plants look at times though i'd consider it defo.

You've proven excised root tips absorbe sucrose, you haven't shown growing plants up taking sucrose and utilizing it... Hello anyone in there

how is a root tip different on any given plant? the only thing that differs is the leaves. if they aren't there, when there is a gap in the translocation available for the sucrose and glucose molecules, why wouldn't the plant take what it needs when it needs it like when you cut leaves and reduce sugar levels?

Hm I'm growing sog, what ya pullin of a 1k, how long do you veg?

haven't had 2 of the same runs, ever. every time i run a new crop through, something is different. be it strain, temps, a/c, season, location, pot size, tree, sog, flipped bulbs, vscrog(sorta), hori sog, cool tube trees, cfl sog, cfl trees, organic, and bottle fed. the only thing i haven't done yet was hydro, but all in due time. no run is the same so to post my yield doesn't matter, it's never consistent.

Please inform me how your lowers are just as close as your tops, oh vert, so vertical lighting increased the quality of lowers not defoliation.

yep, i can already tell. i'm on my 2nd run of blue dream and stripped the bottom 1/2 of the leaves before flower because they had thrip damage. leaves i was likely to lose anyway during flower, but they were still useful as they were when plucked. i did it on the same day i flipped. now the bottom 1/2 of the plants have small branches that are all nug. it's not larf or hash $, it's bud. i essentially lollipopped em but left the branches to bud. not technically defo, but it was a hard prune for 12-16" tall plants.

last run i had no bug problems, no stasis, left the leaves, and still had larf. this run it's bud. simple. no leaves, no shade, more bud.

Yes if your comparing only you to yourself, but we are trying to see if there is something to this tek, unless people start averaging numbers outside of what is standard it's bull.

you can only compare yields to your own. not every grower is doing the same thing in the same room, with the same strain, or problems we all face eventually. bugs, blackouts, forgot to transplant, water, whatever. comparing my grow to yours is an attempt to turn this debate into a competition. it's not, it's a technique that given the right situations CAN improve your yield. whatever that may be.

The only way to compare yields is in my post above

nope it's not. it's turning it into a a competition to see who's a better grower. none of us are the same.

Typical juvenile response. I don't care how you act but people usually stop reading douchebags posts.

that's fine, i don't give i fuck. i'm here to learn and possibly teach a few people things. you don't seem to be very teachable though as you won't try it even though it's been explained it can work if done right.

You get defensive like I'm attacking you not the tech, typical childish behavior.

you have. you've questioned the research i've done, and even when shown the proof you, don't get it. so yeah i feel like

You have no idea what I have and haven't done sonny boy.

again, you don't even under stand the point i'm trying to make with the analogy. ughhhhhh......

i gotta figure out this quoting shit....

 

[whodare]

Highlight the part you want to quote then hit the little quote bubble at the top

 

[siftedunity]

@ iampolluted...

i have posted pics and will post more if i need to. you can see my nice yields without skinning my plants.

i did partly agree with you in my last post yet you kept on ranting at me. I keep asking you to post either:

a) dense resinous bud from the bottom of your plant (to prove you have turned larf
into good quality bud)
or
b) a nice sized top bud (to prove defoliation improves quality, size, or overall yield.

you have done neither.

you still seem to think plants dont need sugars they produce in their leaves because they absorb these in the roots. but you dont feed plants sugar, you feed them nutrients which have elements like iron, magnesium etc. not sugar.
the basic scientific equation for photosynthesis is
co2+h2o(plus light)=C6H12O6(glucose)+o2 (unbalanced equation obviously)

so in basic terms, carbondioxide and water is used by the plant using light, to produce glucose which is sugar and oxygen. understand? that is where a plant gets sugar.

its odd how you dont like the scientific reasoning people have used. the fact your ignoring is that everything can be explained by science, from putting a man on the moon to how to increase your yield. its all relative.

you keep saying its like fucking two women at once you dont know its good till you try it. well does that mean id have to try jumping off a cliff before i could have proof i would die?
no- because you just use your common sense which you seem not to be able to do.

 

[iampolluted]

i've explained the science. you remove leaves, you're removing sugar producers. in essence, you're removing food it needs for energy to a degree, not unlike the absorption of nutrients. it aids in producing leaves. once it recovers it goes back to producing and storing it. you don't think this could or would happen when it's been proven to do so in root tips?

i haven't see anyone present any data on plants comparable to mj in terms of growth patterns and relate-able yield. i see conjecture from people with no practical experience in a method different from yours.

pics of your grows doesn't mean anything here. they aren't defoliated. it doesn't relate to the topic other than to distract people from what's going on. pics of things like jbonez experience are the only 1's that matter. i don't have any clear pics of the last grow with the bd sog. i also don't really have any pics of how they look right now. i'm lazy in that way, but i know what i know and i remember what i saw, and had to deal with in terms of $ lost. i'm not having that problem this run. the only parts i'll have larf is on my bottom rack, and that's because i haven't had the change to light up the other 1k mh for the bottom 1/2 (need another timer).

no it has nothing to do with jumping off a cliff, although it can be fun and exhilarating in the right circumstance. i have plenty of common sense. can't say the same for others tho.

 

[siftedunity]

i've explained the science. you remove leaves, you're removing sugar producers. in essence, you're removing food it needs for energy to a degree, not unlike the absorption of nutrients. it aids in producing leaves. once it recovers it goes back to producing and storing it. you don't think this could or would happen when it's been proven to do so in root tips?

i haven't see anyone present any data on plants comparable to mj in terms of growth patterns and relate-able yield. i see conjecture from people with no practical experience in a method different from yours.

pics of your grows doesn't mean anything here. they aren't defoliated. it doesn't relate to the topic other than to distract people from what's going on. pics of things like jbonez experience are the only 1's that matter. i don't have any clear pics of the last grow with the bd sog. i also don't really have any pics of how they look right now. i'm lazy in that way, but i know what i know and i remember what i saw, and had to deal with in terms of $ lost. i'm not having that problem this run. the only parts i'll have larf is on my bottom rack, and that's because i haven't had the change to light up the other 1k mh for the bottom 1/2 (need another timer).

no it has nothing to do with jumping off a cliff, although it can be fun and exhilarating in the right circumstance. i have plenty of common sense. can't say the same for others tho.

i think your still missing the point- we are posting pics of our grows to show what you can get without defoliating. thats what you guys should be doing to prove your point. the only pics here look ill.
we are doing that because we are trying to document what we believe is true. therefore it makes sense for us to back up our claims.
the name of the thread is ''defoliation high yield technique?'' -its a question, thus up for debate. this is not a defoliation enthusiasts thread.

coming back to the nutrients, well yes if you cut of leaves its still getting nutrients. the point is it wont be able to use the nutrients anyway because the plant is in shock mode and it has less leaves fo photosynthesis.

imagine any living thing which grows quick its very simple, you want a high yield? the plant is going to have to build more(bud) tissue. in order for any creature to build any tissue it needs water food and minerals. cutting off leaves will slow that process down.

as for common sense? I can only see one side of the argument which promotes that.

 

[St3ve]

Wow.. this thread.

All you guys argue and cry "you guys are stupid this doesn't work" when we're doing it and achieving great results. The op started this thread because he too uses it and gets great results. Still tho.. you guys stamp your feet and call bullshit for no reason.

What I don't understand is.. why all you guys, who clearly have not successfully used this tech, are coming in here and preaching to know it all and say it doesn't work. And STILL continue doing so when ppl like myself and many many others say we CAN make it work. Why? What is your goal?

Why? If we KNOW it works from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, why come in here and call everyone liars? Its not up for debate.. it works in some gardens. It works in our gardens. Thats it! Continuing this bickering is just silly.

 

[bajangreen]

Has anyone realized that each calyx comes with it's very own leaf?

Same way each branch comes with its very own leaf (fan leaf), after a branch has grown, i don't think it needs the leaf to 'power' it anymore, so if that leaf is blocking light from reaching a younger leaf that is "powering" a next part of the plant, remove it.

I do think that the old leaves are used like nutrient reserves if the plant cant find food else where.

My views on this are up for discussion as i only see the benefit of defoliation on mother plants where i want lots of growing shoots.
Clones where i want them to not lose water to fast.
Late flowering plant where i don't want to see the ugly yellowing.

 

[whodare]

Wow.. this thread.

All you guys argue and cry "you guys are stupid this doesn't work" when we're doing it and achieving great results. The op started this thread because he too uses it and gets great results. Still tho.. you guys stamp your feet and call bullshit for no reason.

Crying? Lol ok sure.

Great results? Only ones I see being posted belong to people who don't defoliate.

What I don't understand is.. why all you guys, who clearly have not successfully used this tech, are coming in here and preaching to know it all and say it doesn't work. And STILL continue doing so when ppl like myself and many many others say we CAN make it work. Why? What is your goal?

Why? If we KNOW it works from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, why come in here and call everyone liars? Its not up for debate.. it works in some gardens. It works in our gardens. Thats it! Continuing this bickering is just silly.

I know for a fact that if you squeezed out a few extra grams defoliating then you can improve in many other aspects of your grow first.

Not a single person in here has provided a side by side, the best we get are pictures of different grows from different times, probably different weather. were plants the same size, veg time the sameeverything identical.

No, not one clear concise side by side to show the effects. Out of all the people in this thread you would think you would have someone with a science background come forward willing to prove it either way.

If it works for you good, but having seen most of the defoliators gardens I'd say they have a whole lot of improving to do before they can say it was defoliation that pushed them over the edge of max yield.







Some eye candy at day 34

 

[whodare]

My views on this are up for discussion as i only see the benefit of defoliation on mother plants where i want lots of growing shoots.
Clones where i want them to not lose water to fast.
Late flowering plant where i don't want to see the ugly yellowing.

This is pretty much what I've been saying the whole time...

 

[Jbonez]

Im starting see that defoliating really takes its toll on the plants upward growth, Id say square footage of actual foliage is the near the same as before I pulled leaves, just that instead of a bunch of big leaves, the plant stopped "upward" growth and put out a fuck load of little leaves.. Again, this imvho can only be implemented in veg to see benefits in bloom.

If you dont have enough veg time to defoliate and then let them resume to get the size you want before the flip, dont waste your time, otherwise, im seeing benefits due to my veg time...

There is no right way to defend this or not, it is simply what it is, just another method of training.. Same reason we dont top and supercrop our gals in late bloom... I wont be pulling any leaves after the flip, which is in like 45 minutes.. lol..

 

[whodare]

J,

I'm not saying don't defoliate, Ive been trying to get across(when I'm not responding to nonsense) that it has it's place, however limited it is.

If you need to slow some plants in veg down because of a delay, bonsai moms, week before harvest, during an extended harvest to prevent mold etc.

As you noted(and pointed out by studies I've posted) when you defoliate the plant stalls. It is using the food reserves stored in the roots to grow new leafs, which is why root growth stops too. The studies also showed the plant will throw more leafs than before in many instances, only increasing the leaf crowding problem.

It's hard to get that point across having to respond to the religious nuts screaming heresy.

 

[Jbonez]

J,

I'm not saying don't defoliate, Ive been trying to get across(when I'm not responding to nonsense) that it has it's place, however limited it is.

If you need to slow some plants in veg down because of a delay, bonsai moms, week before harvest, during an extended harvest to prevent mold etc.

As you noted(and pointed out by studies I've posted) when you defoliate the plant stalls. It is using the food reserves stored in the roots to grow new leafs, which is why root growth stops too. The studies also showed the plant will throw more leafs than before in many instances, only increasing the leaf crowding problem.

It's hard to get that point across having to respond to the religious nuts screaming heresy.

I truly think this chemd will put off more than she usually does, but still, I dont know if I can let all my plants get to the point where once I do remove leaves they are stalled to the point that my stretch in bloom wont compensate.. I never had issues in vert before, so i doubt defoliated and having smaller leaves going in is going to cause any issues.. This is certainly and interesting way of training and it brings all kinds of thoughts into mind when I think about how it could benefit, I dont know, Ill let ya know in 70 days how I think this works.. I rely on the stretch because in vert, we like to use all the top to bottom light a bulb puts out, and if they dont stretch, and say all the small sites do stretch, then Im gonna be in for problems, so I aint taking anymore leaves, Ill get pics up in a bit, mixing my coco and nutes atm... I think you get what I am saying.

Im not gonna take place in arguing if it isnt objective and on topic, as has been the case, I just wanna see if this does anything, and only because Ive pretty much maxed out my gpw in vert, for now anyways, lol..

 

[whodare]

i dig it, and if it "works" recreate it, over and over, just like any good experiment.

then go back and do another undefoliated grow and see if it was defoliation or gained experience...

 

[Bassy59]

Crying? Lol ok sure.


I know for a fact that if you squeezed out a few extra grams defoliating then you can improve in many other aspects of your grow first.

Obviously you're retarded, and have not even read this thread and the players like D9 for example whom saw 2-4 OUNCES of improvement, going from 10-14 and as high as 19 OUNCES PER FUCKING PLANT and he was already a highly successful grower. And he is just one example of persons IN THIS FUCKING THREAD that have shown MASSIVE improvement from already consistent grows!

Not a single person in here has provided a side by side, the best we get are pictures of different grows from different times, probably different weather. were plants the same size, veg time the sameeverything identical.

No, not one clear concise side by side to show the effects. Out of all the people in this thread you would think you would have someone with a science background come forward willing to prove it either way.

[/quote]

AGAIN, you haven't even read this thread OR the simple PDF in the VERY FIRST POST that is a compilation of important posts within this thread and tells you EXACTLY why SIDE BY FUCKING SIDE IS IMPOSSIBLE. But that would require as much brain and comprehension as a gnat could muster to understand.

I have posted many pictures in this thread at varying stages. Including one plant from last grow yielding 10oz dry. And that grow had some mistakes! It was also only my 2nd full on venture into defoliation. There is a learning curve.

Obviously these girls are not healthy at all at 28 days of flower on a 60 day flowering period strain (roughly 60 days). I stripped them twice in veg, again at end of stretch, and pluck fully developed fan leaves that shade or are attached to flowers that have developed their own leaves. I never pluck a fan leaf that doesnt have a good solid stem sticking out either.

Something you need to understand. Not every single leaf gets yanked. A vast majority does, but not everything. Furthermore, one can talk all the bullshit they want about storage of sugars and such, but in reality it isnt what's being stored in fan leaves that's important to those buds. It's what's in those SUGAR LEAVES ON THE BUDS, that's important. Wonder why we call them sugar leaves? And nowhere does op or anyone else promote removal of sugar leaves.

Some of my pics are from deep inside the plants. This grow is 4 girls in RDWC in 5x5 tent and they take up the entire area.

Look at pic #2. Do you really think those sugar leaves do not provide enough goodies to those flowers?

 

[whodare]

Looks like you over veg'd those plants. Maybe that's why defoliation helped, your space was overgrown reducing you possible yield.

All you have to do is cut a few days off veg, and now that you know how they stretch you should know how big to get them before flip.

Days saved in veg add up to more runs per year which would increase your yield more than defo ever could

 

[Bassy59]

I will tend to agree with you that on this grow I let them veg a hair too long. They are probably 6" taller than I want. My other mistake was not training them more laterally during veg. These girls are only 24-25" wide and I want 28-30". More laterally trained, slightly shorter, means more useable light throughout the entire zone. And THAT'S what defoliation is all about. Getting the maximum amount of light to all flowers from top to bottom. These plant never have a lack of food to uptake, another novel thought for the "going against nature crowd". They never have a lack of light absorbing cells. Too many folks assume they do. They do however have a lack of light DIFFUSING LEAF.

My grow is also from seed. I wasn't able to take clones as previous grow was a different strain. And I didn't take clones from these girls. I will on the next bunch. But more importantly, as many know and understand, clones will have tighter nodal spacing and this technique shines even more with that.

Your argument that less veg time is more bud at the end of the year is inaccurate in my case and in the case of many others. I can not begin flower until I harvest and clear out my tent. Less veg time does not equal more harvests for me and it never will. Should I even get permitted to open up another tent, veg time will be unaffected in terms of harvests per year. I and many others are just not willing to bend the laws to have more harvests.

In my case I can only have 4 plants in flower. I have to use this for edibles to treat my mother since smoking makes her hack to hell and back. She's 78 and comfort is more important. Point being I need the most possible from the least amount of plants to last 2 months until the next harvest. Pulling 24-32oz from 4 plants is how I do it. Hell I don't even smoke this shit. Haven't in over 35 years, since I was a teenager.

 

[DrFever]

I will tend to agree with you that on this grow I let them veg a hair too long. They are probably 6" taller than I want. My other mistake was not training them more laterally during veg. These girls are only 24-25" wide and I want 28-30". More laterally trained, slightly shorter, means more useable light throughout the entire zone. And THAT'S what defoliation is all about. Getting the maximum amount of light to all flowers from top to bottom. These plant never have a lack of food to uptake, another novel thought for the "going against nature crowd". They never have a lack of light absorbing cells. Too many folks assume they do. They do however have a lack of light DIFFUSING LEAF.

My grow is also from seed. I wasn't able to take clones as previous grow was a different strain. And I didn't take clones from these girls. I will on the next bunch. But more importantly, as many know and understand, clones will have tighter nodal spacing and this technique shines even more with that.

Your argument that less veg time is more bud at the end of the year is inaccurate in my case and in the case of many others. I can not begin flower until I harvest and clear out my tent. Less veg time does not equal more harvests for me and it never will. Should I even get permitted to open up another tent, veg time will be unaffected in terms of harvests per year. I and many others are just not willing to bend the laws to have more harvests.

In my case I can only have 4 plants in flower. I have to use this for edibles to treat my mother since smoking makes her hack to hell and back. She's 78 and comfort is more important. Point being I need the most possible from the least amount of plants to last 2 months until the next harvest. Pulling 24-32oz from 4 plants is how I do it. Hell I don't even smoke this shit. Haven't in over 35 years, since I was a teenager.

would love to see some harvest pics or close to chop day pics IMO i am skeptical of your 24 - 32 oz harvest